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Holden Caulfield

Right Hollow - Debunking a Myth

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By this logic, if everyone was targeting the same 'bite' in a turn, everyone would use the same hollow radius, since weight and force into the ice are directly proportional. A lighter player doesn't need more 'bite' than a heavier one, because it takes less force to move a lighter player's body.

Hollow radius is no more complicated than personal preference.

It is personal preference, but you also want to find the optimal hollow for each player. If someone always skates on 3/8" and has never tried anything else they might think that it is the absolute best hollow for them. Their skating may really benefit from a shallower hollow, but if they think they are on the best for them they might not try something else. Trial and error can help a player figure out what they actually like without sacrificing performance.

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It is personal preference, but you also want to find the optimal hollow for each player. If someone always skates on 3/8" and has never tried anything else they might think that it is the absolute best hollow for them. Their skating may really benefit from a shallower hollow, but if they think they are on the best for them they might not try something else. Trial and error can help a player figure out what they actually like without sacrificing performance.

I don't disagree that experimentation is good, but there's no equation for hollow. The decision on which hollow to go with ultimately is decided by the players opinion on how their skates feel, i.e. personal preference. I sincerely doubt there are any players out there skating laps and choosing whichever hollow is the quickest by a 10th of a second. I might believe that if this was a speed skating forum, but it isn't.

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Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if she did have that data for her skaters...

The OP's reasoning remains largely spurious, though he's backing away from his originally strong claim that there was no correlation between weight and hollow to the much easier position that there is not an absolute correspondence. What we have,ultimately, is the suggestion that conventional wisdom should be ignored simply because it is conventional.

Any good skater can learn to use any hollow (within reason), just as any runner can, with strong and flexible technique, go from running in shoes with relatively thick heels to shoes with almost no heel, or even barefoot (though at a certain, trampish height of heel, the calves become so disengaged that running is impossible). However, a good running shoe salesman would still suggest that a heavier person go with more cushioning at the heel rather than less, because of the risk of injury in a misstep; a lighter person landing hard on the heel is less likely to do serious damage. Likewise, a good sharpener can recommend to a skater things which are generally beneficial, while the skater may in turn prefer (for whatever rationalised or wholly inchoate reason) a particular sharpening. For example, I've had people swear up and down that FBV makes absolutely no difference for goalies, and even refuse to sharpen my skates with it; for my part, I notice an enormous difference on the ice between ROH and FBV.

The blades of the skates, and in particular their edges, mediate a complex relationship between a relatively 'dumb' but powerful limb, controlled to some extent by a very powerful brain, on the one side, and one of the most physically bizarre substances in the universe on the other. We have a fairly rough degree of control over that metal medium, some largely unconscious degree of control over the behaviour of the limb; at professional levels, we can also, to an extent, influence the surface by complaining to the ice crew or petitioning the league. Altering that medium or 'tool' can improve the ability of the person using it, and there are general guidelines for conducting such experiments, but ultimately the skill in manipulation (or, in this case, pedipulation) is the major governing factor -- assuming that the surface is not below par.

Or, to paraphrase Hume, the fact that we can't say *for certain* that something *will* happen does not mean that we cannot successfully predict that it may.

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For what its worth (and I'm not saying it's worth anything), I just took the now famous Pittsburgh sharpening chart and cross referenced to player weights from NHL.com and then sorted from deepest to shallowest...

Deepest

Sidney Crosby 0.4375 200

Mike Rupp 0.4375 243

Chris Bourque 0.5 174

Tyler Kennedy 0.5 183

Chris Kunitz 0.5 193

Evgeni Malkin 0.5 195

Kris Letang 0.5 201

Deryk Engelland 0.5 202

Jay McKee 0.5 203

Matt Cooke 0.5 205

Brooks Orpik 0.5 219

Bill Guerin 0.5 220

Eric Godard 0.5 222

Alex Goligoski 0.625 181

Ryan Bayda 0.625 185

Max Talbot 0.625 190

Craig Adams 0.625 197

Ruslan Fedotenko 0.625 200

Pascal Dupuis 0.625 205

Nate Guenin 0.625 207

Mark Eaton 0.625 215

Jordan Staal 0.625 220

Martin Skoula 0.625 226

Chris Conner 0.75 180

Sergei Gonchar 1 206

Shallowest

This doesn't take profile into account at all, something that will significantly impact the performance of each hollow for each skater.

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My partner in the shop sharpens for world class figure skaters, men and women. You would be surprised to know that many elite women figure skaters use 7/16" and 3/8". Their weight is usually under 110 lbs.

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My partner in the shop sharpens for world class figure skaters, men and women. You would be surprised to know that many elite women figure skaters use 7/16" and 3/8". Their weight is usually under 110 lbs.

And a wider blade at that.

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Definitely don't think lighter/deeper, heavier/shallower is a hard and fast rule. I'm 110lbs, and am very comfortable on a 1/2 inch hollow. However, my local sharpener insists on putting a 3/8ths because I am light. I tell him, I can't stop on a 3/8ths (can't even snowplough if standing still), but I can cut hard and stop fine on 1/2, if you put me on a 3/8ths, it'll be dangerous for me. The ice here is really soft, so I tell him that's why I want a 1/2. He tells me my skating sucks if I can't skate on a 3/8ths at my weight. I think that's ridiculous.

I had similar experiences. When I first started skating on ice (coming from roller) in 7th grade, the hollow they gave me was so deep I felt like I was skating in trenches up to my knees. A few years later, when I wanted an increasingly shallower hollow, I had to argue to convince them to give me 1". "Only goalies get their blades sharpened like that." It felt great. Unfortunately, this was after the sharpener I really trusted had retired. He was incredible.

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..."wholly inchoate reason"

I dread how much this kind of thinking predominates in dealing with all sorts of intransigents.

pedipulation

Brilliant :)

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The old sharpener at the rink told me to try 4/5, 7/8 or 1" next season, on 3/5 currently and 140 lbs, try it for almost a month and go deeper if I couldn't skate or wasnt comfortable.
In his opinion, people have to deep hollows instead of working on proper skating technique, plus their edge doesnt have to be perfect and dont need sharpening often

Local pro player; 1.2 hollow, about one sharpening a month.

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In his opinion, people have to deep hollows instead of working on proper skating technique

I agree with him completely.

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And, conversely, a better-trained skater with stronger legs can drive the edges into the ice with greater precision and greater force -- and resist the opposing forces -- better than a weaker, well-trained skater or a stronger, less capable one.

The two hollows missing from that sharpening table are illuminating: Marc-Andre Fleury, one of the most technically proficient goalies in his footwork ever to have played the game, uses a now-unheard of 3/4" hollow, when most goalies in the world, including his then-teammates Brent Johnson and John Curry, are using 3/8". Why? Because it's a hell of a lot easier to perform backside pushes in and out of the butterfly with deep, steep edges than shallow ones. Fleury's superior skating technique and leg-strength let him use a shallower hollow, even though he's a *much* smaller, lighter guy than that lunk BJ.

Flip, glad you liked pedipulation; I think I'm sending that one to the OED... haha.

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I think frequency of sharpening is also a variable that a lot of people fail to account for.

For example, if MAF has his 3/4" sharpened blades touched up before every skate, that's very different than another goalie at 3/8" who sharpens them less frequently.

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I think frequency of sharpening is also a variable that a lot of people fail to account for.

For example, if MAF has his 3/4" sharpened blades touched up before every skate, that's very different than another goalie at 3/8" who sharpens them less frequently.

It's actually, usually the exact opposite of that. Guys with a deeper hollow usually have them sharpened more often.

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It's actually, usually the exact opposite of that. Guys with a deeper hollow usually have them sharpened more often.

Yeah, I get mine sharpened every 3-4 skates to keep them nice and consistent.

I prefer a deeper hollow just because I do a lot of quick stops and turns and don't ever want to worry about blowing a tire.

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Law I just have to read your posts 4 times now to get all the big words us plain old sharpeners well we just sharpen......LOL

What I say with words, you say with honed steel. heh

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It's actually, usually the exact opposite of that. Guys with a deeper hollow usually have them sharpened more often.

Another generalization, based on personal preference.

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Another generalization, based on personal preference.

Based on my experience sharpening tens of thousands of skates over the years.

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And there's always someone that goes against whatever 'rule of thumb' you try to apply.

That's why I said "usually" a couple times in the post you decided to take issue with. I don't know what your problem is, but you are trying to invent controversy where there isn't any. At this point you are just being argumentative.

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The two hollows missing from that sharpening table are illuminating: Marc-Andre Fleury, one of the most technically proficient goalies in his footwork ever to have played the game, uses a now-unheard of 3/4" hollow, when most goalies in the world, including his then-teammates Brent Johnson and John Curry, are using 3/8". Why? Because it's a hell of a lot easier to perform backside pushes in and out of the butterfly with deep, steep edges than shallow ones. Fleury's superior skating technique and leg-strength let him use a shallower hollow, even though he's a *much* smaller, lighter guy than that lunk BJ.

I removed the Goalies from the comparisions because I wanted to avoid someone saying "it's completely different for goalies"

Johnson 3/8 199

Fleury 3/4 180

Curry 3/8 185

Sorry about the goalie discrimination :)

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That's why I said "usually" a couple times in the post you decided to take issue with. I don't know what your problem is, but you are trying to invent controversy where there isn't any. At this point you are just being argumentative.

I don't have a problem, and this isn't some personal vendetta. All I'm saying is, its stupid to look at a chart and say ' I weigh this much, I should sharpen my skates to XX' or 'my skates are set to XX radius, so I need to sharpen them after XX many skates'. One person's opinion of how a player should sharpen their skates is worse than useless if the player doesn't like the feel they are getting. A better skater is going to be able to adapt to a different hollow more easily anyways. Just because Gonchar has his skates sharpened at 1" doesn't make him a bad or good skater, and Johnson's 3/8 sharpening obviously doesn't make him a good or bad skater either. I don't think I've really disagreed with anything you've said.

For someone who is serious about our sport, experimentation is a good thing. Not trying to say it isn't. I've put my fair share of oddly large radiuses on player skates in my day, and a few years back, I frequently sharpened for a AAA goalie customer that liked his skates at 1/4". People are going to do whatever they want to do. I would quite often offer suggestions and advice to customers, especially after building a relationship with them to the point where they specifically asked for me to work on their skates. But, ultimately, if a guy is paying my shop to sharpen his skates, and he wants his goalie skates at 1/4" or his player skates at 1 1/4", that's what he's going to get. When I was doing it every day, I actually really enjoyed breaking things down with people and working with them to get their skates optimized the way they like... when you start to include profile/radius and hollow together, changing balance centers, etc, the number of possible configurations soon becomes infinite.

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Another generalization, based on personal preference.

Actually I do not think it is personal preference. It is feedback from multiple people that may be a similar size shape and skating style. For the most part when running a shop it is more rare to get someone to get say something completely off the scale of what most may get his size and or stature. If that makes sense. Most people want to know what the pro's use and try to use a sharpening that will suit there style of play and if it matches their favorite player then all the better.

As for the gear heads that want to try everything under the son they are still going to come back to something that works best for them.

I think that made sense?

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