DarkStar50 679 Report post Posted August 18, 2014 This was only a matter of time before Bauer assisted Messier directly with the Kingsbridge Rink project. Nine sheets of ice in the Bronx.http://online.wsj.com/article/AP24fd86fe9dd6463bab8c57005a5d20b8.html?KEYWORDS=bauer+hockey Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beerleaguecaptain 999 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 I still don't see how this is a good idea. The market just is not there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarkStar50 679 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 I understand and agree but apparently there are some very deep pockets going all in. $270mil deep just to open the doors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MThockeydad 469 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 $30M per sheet? That's some serious cheese! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chippa13 1844 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 It sounds like they're going to try and create the market with after-school programs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarkStar50 679 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 After school kids in the neighborhood may be the only ones that can get there. This location is off the Cross Bronx Expressway, AKA I-95 to the George Washington Bridge westbound and New England eastbound. The Cross Bronx is bumper-to-bumper all the time. But smarter heads than mine see this project successfully working. http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20140812/REAL_ESTATE/140819966/kingsbridge-armory-ices-30m-infusion#Woops, it's no longer $30mil a sheet! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MThockeydad 469 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 Are there any MTA stops anywhere near the Armory, DarkStar?The numbers don't add up. 750,000sf is freakin' ginormous.A sheet of ice (actual playing surface at 85'x200') is only 17,000sf.Few municipal rinks have ancillary space (bleachers, concessions, lockers, hallways, restrooms) equal to the playing space.Single sheets might, but any facilities with multiple rinks share those spaces or at least don't expand in a 1:1 ratio. 40,000sf of building per rink would be very large--but still only 360,000sf total.750,000/9 = 83,000sf per rink.$270M / 750,000 = $360/sf. This is high, but at least in the correct order of magnitude.Conversely, facilities in Montana are built for $1.5M-$3M per sheet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarkStar50 679 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 We had Team Montana here at the Ice House in Hackensack where I work this past April for Bantam AA USA Hockey National Championships. Murray Craven's son was on the team.This old armory is huge. There are pictures of the place as is and then project plans as well. We have 4 rinks under one roof 10 minutes from midtown Manhattan. We are busy with travel hockey, adult hockey and elite figure skating. Knowing NYC metro and the logistics, this project seems impossible to succeed. That jump to $350mil is a quick 30% increase in the project. I say half a billion bucks before they are done. Bauer's $4mil was a spit in the bucket.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MThockeydad 469 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 Pretty incredible for a bunch of Montana kids to go so far; we're not exactly a hockey mecca!Joel is a super nice kid. Some kids with that much talent are extremely cocky and arrogant. (I went to HS with ex-NFL QB Ryan Leaf) Joel is extremely talented, and a very hard worker with a great attitude. My daughter took a power skating class with him this spring. He's heading to Calgary to attend the Edge hockey school this fall--he will be missed locally.He's got the work ethic and the drive to go far, so the move makes sense to get into a market where he can really succeed instead of just being a huge fish in a small pond.Murray was a driving force behind getting the local indoor rink built 10 years ago. It's probably the nicest purpose-built facility in the state and was only $2.5m in 2004.Sounds interesting, I'll Google the plans.Sad that it's "too big to succeed", considering that with the same investment, they could build a half dozen 2-3 sheet facilities all over the area, nearer a lot more kids' neighborhoods and really impact a lot more people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MThockeydad 469 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 Wow! http://www.nycedc.com/film-event-space/kingsbridge-armory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbridge_Armory 180,000sf on the main (parade) floor and 105,000sf in the subbasement. Guessing the 750,000sf in the other article was a typo. The Wiki article also mentions it's adjacent to the Kingsbridge Road subway station (4 Train). Still a lot of cheese for 9 sheets of ice. If it works out, there will be a generation of kids from the Bronx who are good skaters! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarkStar50 679 Report post Posted August 19, 2014 Yes, when you see the plans it is rather staggering. Putting plans aside for the moment, the next most important piece of the puzzle in the success of any rink is staff. Hockey staff, figure skating staff, operations staff, pro shop staff, concessions staff, the list is endless. This variable is a key component in the success of a rink facility. Finding truly dedicated people with experience is not as easy as it seems. Another major hurdle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MThockeydad 469 Report post Posted August 20, 2014 What about operating costs--are they planning to spend it all on construction, or will they set up an endowment to cover operations? No kidding, 9 sheets worth of people is a major hurdle. A single good figure skating instructor can handle a rink's worth of students. Maybe a half-dozen hockey coaches. Single concessions stand could cover all the rinks for day-to-day operations, but you'd want 2-3 for the 5,000seat arena, at another dozen+ employees; 8-9 full-time rink staff? You could have one full-time person who did nothing but run the Zam and still barely keep up--10min resurfacing every 1.5 hours still wouldn't leave time to refuel and refill water! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCBlueLiner 19 Report post Posted August 20, 2014 ...they could build a half dozen 2-3 sheet facilities all over the area, nearer a lot more kids' neighborhoods and really impact a lot more people.But this would make way too much sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MThockeydad 469 Report post Posted August 20, 2014 Admittedly, it's much easier to fundraise for a singular highly visible flagship project. The risks are different for separated smaller rinks--if they built six, one or two might fail, but the overall project could be judged a success if 4-5 remain viable. This is all the eggs in one basket. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarkStar50 679 Report post Posted August 20, 2014 With 4 rinks we usually have 2 Zam drivers on full time plus another guy for support staff. 9 rinks are going to need a lot of drivers. Plus regular ice maintenance is never fun but necessary. Kingsbridge on a weekend will be out of control. I know what it's like here when 8 travel teams rotate through the building every 90 minutes on Saturday and Sunday. "How long is the wait for sharpening?" "About 3 days." Oh the dreams of a hockey dad to build a rink in NYC.............. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nystromshairstylist 14 Report post Posted September 10, 2014 I still don't see how this is a good idea. The market just is not there.Not even close, they could build two of these facilities, and it would not be enough. Chelsea get $10K per team and has more demand than there is space, they have over 100 teams in their 13 divisions, and could probably double that. 8.5 million people live in the five boros, even after this facility is completed it won't be sufficient.But this would make way too much sense.A lot of people are posting who are unfamiliar with NYC. THERE IS NO REAL ESTATE in the 5 boros to "spread rinks around;" that's why places like chelsea piers are built on piers out into the Hudson River, there is no land for it. They found a single location with some room, and are taking advantage of it. With 4 rinks we usually have 2 Zam drivers on full time plus another guy for support staff. 9 rinks are going to need a lot of drivers. Plus regular ice maintenance is never fun but necessary. Kingsbridge on a weekend will be out of control. I know what it's like here when 8 travel teams rotate through the building every 90 minutes on Saturday and Sunday. "How long is the wait for sharpening?" "About 3 days." Oh the dreams of a hockey dad to build a rink in NYC..............Yes, if Ice House has FOUR rinks running leagues constantly in Northern NJ, then there is no doubt that this facility in NYC will easily be able to generate massive interest. My only concern will be the cost for a men's league team, hopefully they will take the long view on recovering that $270 MM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beerleaguecaptain 999 Report post Posted September 10, 2014 Not even close, they could build two of these facilities, and it would not be enough. Chelsea get $10K per team and has more demand than there is space, they have over 100 teams in their 13 divisions, and could probably double that. 8.5 million people live in the five boros, even after this facility is completed it won't be sufficient.A lot of people are posting who are unfamiliar with NYC. THERE IS NO REAL ESTATE in the 5 boros to "spread rinks around;" that's why places like chelsea piers are built on piers out into the Hudson River, there is no land for it. They found a single location with some room, and are taking advantage of it. Yes, if Ice House has FOUR rinks running leagues constantly in Northern NJ, then there is no doubt that this facility in NYC will easily be able to generate massive interest. My only concern will be the cost for a men's league team, hopefully they will take the long view on recovering that $270 MM.I just do not think that Manhattenites - many of whom do not have cars - will drive to the Bronx (and you need to at Kingsbridge) and the Westchester people might not drive down either. You'll get some on both ends who will but enough to fill 9 rinks???? I doubt it. That being said, smarter people than I have looked at this and invested $ so I might be wrong but time will tell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SirJW 207 Report post Posted September 10, 2014 The M4 subway stops right at Kingsbridge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beerleaguecaptain 999 Report post Posted September 11, 2014 The M4 subway stops right at Kingsbridge.I'm a New Yorker born and bred and I can't imagine schlepping (Yiddish for effect!) a hockey bag on the subway! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SirJW 207 Report post Posted September 11, 2014 I too was born and lived in NYC til I was 12. How do New Yorkers get to Chelsea Piers? No Subway stops for blocks. I've read these forums for a long time and plenty of NYC posters talk about getting to and fro the local rinks w/ out a car. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badger_14 601 Report post Posted September 11, 2014 I'm a New Yorker born and bred and I can't imagine schlepping (Yiddish for effect!) a hockey bag on the subway!Ah, it's not that bad! I take my gear on the T all the time, bus and subway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beerleaguecaptain 999 Report post Posted September 11, 2014 I too was born and lived in NYC til I was 12. How do New Yorkers get to Chelsea Piers? No Subway stops for blocks. I've read these forums for a long time and plenty of NYC posters talk about getting to and fro the local rinks w/ out a car. Yes, they take the Subway but not enough people to support 9 rinks!! My point is not that there aren't New Yorkers who play hockey or that there are not some who will the subway. My point is that I don't think there are ENOUGH players to support a massive 9 rink complex. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nystromshairstylist 14 Report post Posted September 12, 2014 I'm a New Yorker born and bred and I can't imagine schlepping (Yiddish for effect!) a hockey bag on the subway!I drive to the rink most of the time, but if i don't have my car the subway is doable. Its actually a good way to obtain some space, no one wants to come near you with your large sticks in one hand; people think you might be rather dangerous I too was born and lived in NYC til I was 12. How do New Yorkers get to Chelsea Piers? No Subway stops for blocks. I've read these forums for a long time and plenty of NYC posters talk about getting to and fro the local rinks w/ out a car. Take E train to 23rd/8th avenue, then 23rd street bus to chelsea piers stop, take 9 train down to 23rd street and walk...there are lots of public transportation options.Yes, they take the Subway but not enough people to support 9 rinks!! My point is not that there aren't New Yorkers who play hockey or that there are not some who will the subway. My point is that I don't think there are ENOUGH players to support a massive 9 rink complex.LOL, in the 1950s when they built the LIE they thought it made no sense for 3 lanes as there was no way that many people would move out onto long island.There is already enormous demand for ice time in the city, with the high schools, private HS, catholic school league, figure skaters, speed skaters, men's leagues...with more and more people taking up hockey, i believe that even 9 rinks may not be enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JR Boucicaut 3759 Report post Posted September 13, 2014 We took MTA from LGA for SJ3 in Jersey - took the bus to the 7, then the 7 to 42nd St, walked to Port Authority and on NJ Transit to Secaucus to the hotel.That SUCKED. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim A 4 Report post Posted September 13, 2014 Fair amount of people who used to drive from orange, Rockland and Westchester to play in the top leagues at Chelsea Piers. The youth teams will draw from north of nyc too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
