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Hockey14

Need Skate Help -- Detroit Area

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Long time lurker, first time poster.

This forum has been an excellent resource for information in the past so it was the first place I came to when I needed help.

My son has significant pronation issues that I would like an experienced skate person to take a look at. Unfortunately, we live in a rural area and there is no one with such expertise. My son plays often in the Detroit area (in fact we will be there this weekend) and I was hoping someone could make a recommendation as to who I should take my son to see. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I did find Brian's in Windsor on the internet but was hoping for something closer. Also, any thoughts on Brian's? Thanks.

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Great. Thanks. I bought my son's skates at the Total Hockey in Troy. There is one in Novi too. Do you know which one me manages or how I can get in contact with him?

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Pronation issues are best left to a podiatrist. Only they will know the proper correction your son needs. Too many shops over correct and or guess with shims or holder shifts and that can cause health issues. So unless the shop has a DPM on staff I'd recommend you visit the Dr first and let him know you be needing orthotics for an ice skate. They'll direct you from there.

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Thanks for the input. Is there a company my podiatrist can use that makes custom orthotics for hockey skates specifically? The orthotics for his shoes work great in his shoes but won't work in his hockey skates. He has a very high volume foot. He is in a Nexus 4.5EE and it is still a snug fit.

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Thanks for the input. Is there a company my podiatrist can use that makes custom orthotics for hockey skates specifically? The orthotics for his shoes work great in his shoes but won't work in his hockey skates. He has a very high volume foot. He is in a Nexus 4.5EE and it is still a snug fit.

This place has one specifically for ice skates.

http://www.theoffseason.net/orthotics/

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Awesome, thanks.

He's in Troy.

I can personally attest to the quality of work JR does with youth skates and the approach he takes. He's spent an inordinate amount of with us (me and my now 9 yr old) and twice talked me out of buying new skates when I was ready to. Now they have a store open in AA that I go to since it's around the corner from our rink, but I will drive to Troy to have him size/fit my son's skates as long as he is there.

As far as Jimmy's comment about podiatrists... they don't know skates. My son pronated terribly as 5 yr old. He still does in his shoes, but he's mostly grown out of it in skates. He hasn't totally though, and in a year or so, if it's still there, I'll get his blades aligned by... you know who. A podiatrist would likely do an orthotic and that won't fix pronation (it's not really pronation in skates, but you know what I mean.... ) in skates. In most cases it will likely exacerbate the issue. A good skate person should be able to dial in the blade alignment to address the pronation, but the problem is finding the good skate person. Depending how old he is though, you may want to give him some time to grow out of it. My son is a very good skater now despite his slight overpronation. His pronation was terrrible a couple years ago.

Go see JR, he'll do a great job for you.

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I'm going to sit on the fence on this one and play both sides.

There's some value in a podiatrist that has experience with, and knows the ins and outs of skates and insoles. I've referred skaters to podiatrists or chiropractors who do custom insoles or surgical options when I know that the foot or bone condition exceeds what I can work with as a tech.

I think JR, as a professional, would be able to determine if he could help with a pronation issue, or if the problem would be better suited to a doctor.

Perhaps the pronation issue is due to fit issue rather than a muscle/bone/alignment reason. Or, maybe it's not major pronation, but relatively quite minor in the eyes of someone who sees it daily. In that case, I'd say that he should start with JR (or a similarly qualified person in the area), hear his opinion, and then consider other medical opinions .

Are there techs out there who feel they can solve any problem? Sure. But someone who cares about their practice can recognize when and where they can help and when it's best to make a referral to a more suitable professional.

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I'm going to sit on the fence on this one and play both sides.

There's some value in a podiatrist that has experience with, and knows the ins and outs of skates and insoles. I've referred skaters to podiatrists or chiropractors who do custom insoles or surgical options when I know that the foot or bone condition exceeds what I can work with as a tech.

I think JR, as a professional, would be able to determine if he could help with a pronation issue, or if the problem would be better suited to a doctor.

Perhaps the pronation issue is due to fit issue rather than a muscle/bone/alignment reason. Or, maybe it's not major pronation, but relatively quite minor in the eyes of someone who sees it daily. In that case, I'd say that he should start with JR (or a similarly qualified person in the area), hear his opinion, and then consider other medical opinions .

Are there techs out there who feel they can solve any problem? Sure. But someone who cares about their practice can recognize when and where they can help and when it's best to make a referral to a more suitable professional.

I'll follow up by saying my commnents were rather broad, but based on extensive "research" on the same issue as the OP. I agree that a good skate professional will know their limits and defer to medical professionals when warranted. In my experience, in the SE Michigan area, there aren't a lot of good skate tech people, despite the fact it's a hockey hotbed in the US. Believe me, I looked extensively exactly because of the same issue as the OP for my son. When JR got to Troy and we connected, I was happy (ok, not happy, but willing) to drive more than an hour for knowledgable, insightful service instead of what I could find within a 5, 10, or 30-40 min radius. Not to beat the dead JR horse, but it was such a relief to finally get some insightful, quality service.

Similarly, around here, there aren't a lot of good skate-familiar medical professionals. As I've said in previous threads, I have an academic Orthotics and Prothetics program down the hall from my office. I consulted several of them and the one, single individual who had a background in skating told me to find a good skate tech person and go the blade alignment route. He confirmed my experience and argument that for pronation issues, orthotics/footbeds will mostly just exacerbate the issue.

I'm sure there may be some other qualified individuals in the SE Michigan area, there have to be with all the hockey going on (as well as world class figure skating), but they must hide under rocks.

Anyway, as will all things hockey and skating, each situation is individual, so, hope the OP has as much luck as I did in the end. I will also reiterate though that my son was a terrible overpronator a couple years ago and it's not much of an issue at this point. So, the OP's son may grow out of it with time and more skating.

Best of luck to the OP

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Guys, thanks for the great feedback. I sent JR a PM but haven't heard back from him yet. Hopefully we can connect and once I hear his opinion I'll decide how to proceed. A couple of questions:

smcgreg: You said that in your research you found that orthotics exacerbate the issue. Could you explain further?

Also, and this is open to anyone, because of his pronation (at least as explained to me by his podiatrist), he really tends to push from his heel in his forward stride. Would a forward pitch help this or make it worse?

Thanks again everyone.

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Guys, thanks for the great feedback. I sent JR a PM but haven't heard back from him yet. Hopefully we can connect and once I hear his opinion I'll decide how to proceed. A couple of questions:

smcgreg: You said that in your research you found that orthotics exacerbate the issue. Could you explain further?

Also, and this is open to anyone, because of his pronation (at least as explained to me by his podiatrist), he really tends to push from his heel in his forward stride. Would a forward pitch help this or make it worse?

Thanks again everyone.

First, regarding a more detailed explanation of how the orthotic can exacerbate the issue, there was a very nice discussion on the topic and external reference that somebody posted that was very nice. Unfortunately, I think it got lost when the server went down a few months ago. I can't find it. Regardless, the standard fix for pronation most people pursue is something like a Superfeet insert or an orthotic that "pushes up" the arch in a standard shoe. The problem is, in a skate the same forces aren't in play as they are in standard shoes on firm ground. The reference Jimmy posted shows that the correct orthotic fix for a pronation is to actually wedge the outside of the foot rather than the inside (arch). (I didn't read the reference he posted, but scanned the figures, and they seemed to make sense).

I see very often on this site people with flat feet or those claiming to be pronators who go to Superfeet and it fixes their problem. I'm not sure how that can be. I tried it with my son and it was brutal, made things worse. So, I discussed it with the orthatist in my office who was familia with skating and he confirmed that it should exacerbate things. That being said, I actually have a Superfeet blue in his shoes. They help his pronation in shoes very nicely.

What did help to some extent was when JR switched my son from Supremes to Vapors. It gave him a better heel lock and improved his pronation somewhat. It's still there, but he's a good skater, so, I'm hesitant to mess with things too much. Currently, he has no insole/orthotic and does well.

Another issue is that pronation can come from a couple different sources. My son has hyperlaxity that causes his flat feet. On the other hand, I pronate a bit on one skate due to my hip/knee/ankle alignment in one leg. Even though I have fairly high arches, I pronate. My son pronates because he has flat feet.

Anyway, hope this helps.

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I'll add my two cents to the discussion. At the age of 12 I was treated for knee problems by Dr. Charles Bull, who is considered one of the fathers of Sports Medicine. Long story short, my knee issues were partly due to flat feet and pronation. He put me in orthotics for my shoes, but advised against putting them in my skates.

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Pg 56. It is assuming that the blades are mounted correctly to start with. The issue I have with this article is that it was done in 2003 and some of the diagrams and information is from 1987. I hate to say but things have come a long way since 1987.

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Update:

I met with JR last weekend and I just wanted to say up front what a great experience it was. He was knowledgeable, professional and honest -- an absolute pleasure to work with. I am fortunate to have run across someone with his experience to help my son.

After our consultation, we've decided on a plan going forward that moves slowly, taking it one step at a time. First, we want to make sure that my son is in the best skates for his feet. JR suggested that we go from a EE to a D in the Nexus skate to remove any potential slop from the heel. He also fitted him for the proper heel size in Superfeet. Once he is out skating on the new skates/inserts, we'll give it a couple of weeks of observation to see where my son is at and decide where to go from there.

I'll update a litle further down the road. Again, thanks to JR.

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