Petition to make fighting a GM in junior hockey

[JohnZ622 0]

Hi everyone,

I outlined some of the reasons why I think fighting should be given a GM in all junior level hockey games in an online petition. If the pros want to do it, then it is their right to make an informed choice with great medical & disability insurance and a nice pay cheque. I don't feel it is right to do it at the junior level.

If you agree, sign it here. I tend to mail it to the various league comms (USHL, NAHL, CHLs)

https://www.change.org/p/chl-and-ushl-commissioners-make-junior-hockey-fighting-a-game-misconduct?just_created=true

[SirJW 207]

Good topic. I agree that fighting should be phased out in the JR level.

I'm oldNslow and have been playing most of my life, 49 years. As a kid I loved the fighting however based on all the recent issues the Pros have been having, I can't imagine how many players that never moved past Jr's are suffering mental issues based on injuries occurred chasing NHL dreams.

[raganblink 82]

I've written papers about this topic in college. 3, actually.

My opinion changed continuously, as I made persuading arguments for and against. At this point in time I'm not 100% sure how I feel, still.

Fighting has its place - watch games where you will get a game and a suspension, compared to leagues where its just a game misconduct, and then leagues where you get 5 minutes.

The amount of cheap shots, late hits, etc. increase when fighting is more of a punishment. From my observations, the more fighting happens the lower level of hockey you get - to impress girls. Same thing with outrageous hits that are interference/cheap/not in the play, because the kids are trying to impress girls.

When you get to low-level juniors fights happen due to cheap stuff, and there is a lot of fighting to impress girls. Usually these leagues have just a 5 minute for fighting. If anything it is these leagues (Jr C, Jr B, Tier3 USA Jr A) where fighting needs to be an automatic EJ.

Get to high level-juniors the fighting only happens if someone is out of line and they need to be brought back to reality, or they just had a cheap/big hit on someone. I've noticed a lot of refs give these 5 and a game for a fight, not too many times its just a 5 for a fight.

Get to college where it is outlawed and you only have it when someone does something dirty to someone.

An interesting note, the level of officiating goes up at the same time - so you have officials who are probably not as good as their counterparts reffing games that are more likely to get out of hand and be dangerous for the participants.

My overall conclusion was to allow fighting at all levels of junior hockey, because it is, in my opinion, to have it as an option to help control the game. There have been plenty of HS games I've seen where someone is just going around charging people and hitting them high, and if someone on the other team had the chance to just throw down the mitts with him, they'd both get kicked out and everyone's safety would be better off. However fighting is not allowed in HS, and usually is an EJ and a lengthy suspension if you do do it. A problem is the officiating at lower levels unable to get control over games. I know not everyone is like that, however, there have been plenty of games I've seen where a better ref could have controlled the game instead of letting it get out of hand.

Saying all of that, for the US at least, if you fight I think in Jr A Tier 3 and lower is an automatic EJ & 1 game suspension. Tier 2 (NAHL) is an EJ. Tier 1 (USHL) is 5 minute major and a 10 minute misconduct - EJ and a 1 game suspension if they fight again during the game.

As much as it can get ugly, its something that needs to be apart of the game - there are too many kids, even at high levels of juniors (and pros) who go around running people and rarely get punished for it. From experience when those players are forced into a fight due to their actions they typically reign their aggressiveness in & control themselves a little bit better.

[chippa13 1844]

Fighting is not a deterrent to cheap/dangerous play. The lack of meaningful discipline is the reason why you see cheap/dangerous play at all levels of hockey.

[raganblink 82]

And if the governing boards are unwilling to do a better job of preparing their referees looking for this type of play, they'll stay in the game and continue to do the cheap crap.

If fighting has the possibility to have the kid get an EJ & suspension, than that type of play goes down. Really its all on the refs calling dangerous/cheap stuff and holding those kids accountable. If they don't, which based on decades of hockey it appears that they cannot, then keep fighting in the game, but make the punishment for fighting more severe. Meaning EJ or EJ+suspension.

[chippa13 1844]

Why leave fighting in these lower levels at all? If you are all but legislating it out of the game with stiff penalties then why leave the possibility? There is no reason why a couple of 16 year old Jr C kids should be going toe to toe when they are more susceptible to head trauma. We are in an era where the majority of professional hockey players will never need both hands to count all of the fights of their entire careers and many will never have more than one or two ever.

[raganblink 82]

Because when you don't have fighting at lower level hockey (HS, bad U18s) it turns into a gongshow. Lots of kids acting tougher than nails with their cage & high hits.

That same skill level is basically jr c and jr b, na3, and there are a lot of fights, yes, and the hits are bad still. Insert EJs and suspensions for fighting and bad hits will go down & fights will go down as well.

Or they could just try to get hockey players who just want to play the game, and dont allow the ones who just want to goon it up to play, but that would be too much work...

[chippa13 1844]

Bad hits are a result of a lack of strong discipline meeted out and kids feeling invincible in their equipment. Fighting, or the lack thereof, has zero impact on bad hits.

[Neal 41]

I agree with Chippa on this, fighting needs to be taken out of games at the lower levels. I don't believe it has any deterrent effect on dirty play. The only way I'd see the deterrent effect is if it is in direct and immediate response to the dirty play. But it is ridiculous to expect that all players be able to fight to prevent and protect themselves from dirty play.

The need is for hockey at all levels to move to strict and frequent suspensions and fines for dirty play.

[hb4167 6]

Let us not forget the adults romanticizing the 'rough tough son-uva-gun from back in my day' and the few notable "enforcers" of the last decade. At what point do we stop trying to point the finger at the referees not controlling a game, or players 'having' to 'stand up' for a teammate??

When do we get to the point, as adults, who care greatly about this sport (and its future), where we can actually start teaching discipline and sportsmanship. It's not the kids playing today who are abusing fighting. It's the adults that paved the way for the desire to win at all costs.

Maybe it's a bit too glass half full of me...But damnit, teach the kids the game, the right way. They want to fight? Go join a MMA or boxing gym. You won't be playing hockey. It is seriously so ignorant to firstly blame officials for "loosing control" of a game, when the adults teaching kids to play the game have lost control. How many times do we ever see a coach bench his OWN player for doing something dirty or unethical? He serves his penalty, accepts the challenge of a fight from the other teams 'enforcer' (because ya know, that's the right way to police violence, is with more violence!) and he's back out on the ice looking to hurt someone else. In my time coaching, I would light my kids up and stick them to the bench if they ever headhunted, speared, slue footed, or any other sort of undisciplined dirty play took place on their part. Hell, even if they didn't get a penalty, I would sit them. Because that is how WE eliminate the "need" for fighting from hockey, by eliminating the dirty crap first.

Really take a moment to think about what you're proposing. You actually want to prevent violence, WITH MORE VIOLENCE. That is just so backwards and asinine. Should we allow bar fights to be legal? What about legal fighting in the NFL? Helmet to helmet contact.... Stand up you concussed sack of meat and fight that guy! And if you won't, someone else on your team will because it's the right thing to do to help protect people.

At this point, fighting to me (personal opinion), is a sideshow. If we ever want the game to progress, and be in a stronger place, there needs to be more focus spent on discipline, great talent and play, than watching two meat-heads thud into each other for 15 seconds. Some of the best games of recent memory had ZERO fights in them. ZERO dirty/risky hits. Just good, clean, fast, talented hockey.

It is going to be a long and difficult road to ever remove dirty play, fighting, and the instinct of fighting from the hockey community. But that is an awful excuse to not start trying right damn now.

[Caihlen 67]

Well said.

[hb4167 6]

I realize after re-reading what I wrote, that I come off like I'm on my soap box. This wasn't my intention by the way.

Ragan has MANY good points. I echoed a lot of what he said, and clearly disagreed with a few other points.

My main point I personally want to get across is; Instead of trying to put a bandaid on the open wound that is dirty/malicious plays and how it ties into the 'need' for fighting, we need to go all the way down to square 1 with youth organizations, and enforce that none of this is acceptable at any point in ones hockey career. Like I said, if one of my high schoolers stuck a knee out, he didn't see ice for a long while. After a few benchings and a hostile confrontation from his father, the point finally came across, and the kid (DESPITE HIS FATHERS ENCOURAGEMENT OF "PLAYING VICIOUS") actually turned into a clean, hard working player on the team.