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jebaxter

Interacting with On-Ice Officials in Adult League

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you forgot the 3rd option, they flat out dont care and are there to collect the $

Those are the guys that I hate as a player or as the other ref.

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Isn't there a system for evaluating referees, so that they can get rid of the bad ones? Or is it so hard to get referees that they can't do that?

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in our league, they dont have enough people who want to do it. I got blasted with a cross check friday night right in front of the ref, no call. I went to talk with the league director, (as i later found out my shoudler was dislocated and my arm now looks like i got beat with a baseball bat) and his exact words were "id love to help but we dont have anyone else...sorry" so as a ref I said Id start doing it!

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I had a "communication resolution" the other night. Behind the play I hear a stick to stick sound and by the time I turned around, there was a stick sliding across the ice. I remembered the number and stopped at the bench at the next whistle (goal against that team). I went over to the guy and said, "I don't see what happened to piss you off, but I know you got even with him. Everything good now?" Someone mentioned that the other guy got him knee on knee and I told them I would keep an eye out for it., then went and dropped the puck. Other than having a partner that didn't think anything should be called a penalty, it was a good game.

As a player or ref, I would rather have a quick whistle than see a goalie get hurt from a cheap shot. As long as the ref is in good position, it doesn't bother me. As a ref, you know you're going to take some heat for it. Count to 5 and then explain it, move to warning and penalties f the abuse continues. At least, that's my policy.

and i totally agree with you I don't want to see anyone get hurt at all. LIke I said in the moment it was frustrating because all I had to do was tap it in the open net. I do understand his call and there for am not going to chirp him the rest of the game for it.

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Isn't there a system for evaluating referees, so that they can get rid of the bad ones? Or is it so hard to get referees that they can't do that?

You answered your own question there. For the league I'm in, it basically takes a lot of complaining to the league from basically the whole league before a guy disappears. The first step is usually to stop assigning guys to certain teams because of gripes. The problem is that the guys in it just for the money who don't put in any effort and don't care are the guys who always show up.

For me personally, having refereed, the lazy refs drive me crazier than the dumb ones but not by much. I'd rather see a guy in position and get blocked out than a guy making a call from two zones away.

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You answered your own question there. For the league I'm in, it basically takes a lot of complaining to the league from basically the whole league before a guy disappears. The first step is usually to stop assigning guys to certain teams because of gripes. The problem is that the guys in it just for the money who don't put in any effort and don't care are the guys who always show up. For me personally, having refereed, the lazy refs drive me crazier than the dumb ones but not by much. I'd rather see a guy in position and get blocked out than a guy making a call from two zones away.

The rink has told the official's organization several times that a particular ref is not wanted. I think the next step is to actually ban him from the rink if they assign him again.

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As an official, your "style" is the worst approach. Much like yourself, officials are human and make mistakes. What makes a good ref is the ability to take ownership of the call. A huge benefit for me is that I'm approachable. You want to ask me about a call or get clarification? Sure, no problem. Approach me in a respectful manner and I'll talk to you all night. Wanna act like a child and I'll politely let you know that I don't need to explain my call to you and you can send a letter over. One thing I think some players fail to realize is that much like yourself we are amateurs. I am by no means a professional so I'm going to make mistakes. It's part of the game.

With that said, I pride myself on my ability to be engaged with players and bust my ass out there to ensure I see everything. Like others have said, I get paid to be out there so I take it seriously.

You are then in the minority of refs. I very rarely get penalties, so I honestly don't worry about it too much. 90% of my penalties have been from trying to talk to the ref, who doesn't want to explain anything, talk to anyone (and I *am* the Captain), and acts like a rude prick to me because I dare to ask him for an explanation.

Mistakes are one thing. I yell at my guys constantly to shut up, tell them it was an even-up call, or that it looked like a penalty. I know that penalties are a part of the game. The penalties don't even bother me because I understand it's what the ref sees, not what I actually did or not. But 99% of the time, when I ask a ref for an explanation as to what I did wrong so I don't do it again, I get something ridiculous like, "Well, you pushed him," or something like, "Just go to the box."

Last game, I get a penalty for roughing because a player fell down in front of me, in the crease, as I was moving him out of the way. Fine. I know what it looked like. I go to the box, and I say to the ref, "I'm not trying to argue your call, but can you tell me what I did wrong there," in a normal tone of voice. He looked at me, ignored me, and skated away. It's not so much the actual calls that bother me, it's the people making the calls.

If you're gonna treat me like I'm an idiot, I will afford you the same. I have no interest in dealing with people like that in any walk of life. If your excuse is that you're an amateur and can't do what you're getting paid to do, stop doing it. If you were volunteering, different story.

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Another player/ref here, I usually get away with a bunch of stuff that isn't called, so even a bad call against me still leaves me ahead in the grand scheme of things. I know most of the refs and know what will work with most of them. With some, there is nothing that is going to help. With the decent guys, you can talk to them calmly on the way to the box. Something like, "Just before my penalty, (insert number) got me with a good slash/chop/hack/etc..." or "(insert number) is getting pretty frisky with the stick, can you keep an eye on him?"

The Keys:

Don't dispute the call - you just back them into a corner and they could get defensive

Don't yell

Don't throw your stick

Talk to them like a normal human

Don't say "you missed..." - you tell them what they missed (in your opinion) but never used the word missed (or blown or screwed up or...)

Even guys at the NHL level make mistakes and none of the guys doing a beer league game are NHL level officials

I had a very experienced ref doing one of our games last season. It's really rare to have someone at that level do our beer league games, so it was a bonus for us. At one point I'm forechecking and turn to follow play. An opposing player was three feet away, catches an edge and does a face plant on the ice. The whistle blows and I get called for a penalty. Naturally, I just started laughing. On my way to the box I told the guy that I wasn't within two feet of the player and describe what happened. I then followed it up with "I can see how it might have looked bad from your angle, though." That really is important to remember; they don't call what you do, they call what it looks like you do. Depending on the angle, a harmless play can look like a penalty and a penalty can look like nothing.

Agree completely, because chances are you will be the only person on the ice talking to the refs in that manner, and they will usually remember and respect that. For the odd amount of total jackasses, just find a creative way to insult them, they will usually remember you and probably not respect you.

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"Hey ref, watch #. Behind the play a minute ago he slashed me."

That's all it takes--I will be damn sure to keep an extra moment of gaze on that player.

And if I call you for something, the absolute worst thing you can do is bitch about it. You can ask what I saw, how I interpreted what happened, but to fly off the handle calling me shitty and saying I'm the worst ref you've ever seen for calling you on an obvious penalty wins you 0 points.

As a ref, I like to keep it light hearted out on the ice. Joke around with the people when I get the chance, make sure everyone is having a good time. Granted, there is a competitive aspect to the game, the players are there to--in general--have fun. No reason for me to get in the way of that.

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Last game, I get a penalty for roughing because a player fell down in front of me, in the crease, as I was moving him out of the way. Fine. I know what it looked like. I go to the box, and I say to the ref, "I'm not trying to argue your call, but can you tell me what I did wrong there," in a normal tone of voice. He looked at me, ignored me, and skated away. It's not so much the actual calls that bother me, it's the people making the calls.

But if you know what it looked like -- and the important issue is what it looked like from his angle -- why are you bothering to ask him what you did wrong?

I was always a "player's ref," willing to talk and explain why I called something ("Sorry, but that's what it looked like from my angle") or why I didn't ("Sorry, but I was following the puck and didn't see what happened to you"). Yet the part that always got/gets/will get me is why players don't own up to their actions. I'd feel like saying, "Jesus, you swung for the fences and connected with the other guy! Why are you even asking me what you did wrong?!?"

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But if you know what it looked like -- and the important issue is what it looked like from his angle -- why are you bothering to ask him what you did wrong?

Because I didn't do anything wrong. I want him to tell me what he saw. I wasn't yelling, I wasn't complaining, but I did want his explanation.

In addition, I don't completely buy the "what it looked like from my angle" argument, not from all of the refs, anyway. A good majority of them are out of position and guessing half of the time. To me, a lazy ref is far more dangerous than no ref, because guys will take liberties when they know they can get away with it.

If you're asking a player to own up to his actions, I expect the ref to do the same. Even a, "Hey, I was out of position/had to dodge a puck/wasn't paying proper attention and this is what I saw, I'm sorry, I'll pay better attention next time..." would be fine. I don't get that, though. I get a look as if I'm questioning the Lord himself and I should shut up lest he smite me with a misconduct.

But I digress, if you are lighthearted and want to explain the call, or at least try to explain it, then I'm cool with it. There are two refs I've ever met that have actually done that. I'm not exaggerating.

Everyone here says to talk to the refs like they're human. It cuts both ways. If you take things too personally to respond professionally in a job you get paid to do, then, once again, stop doing it.

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I'm sorry, but when you say that you know what it looked like yet want to hear the ref explain what he saw, it almost sounds like you're trying to pick an argument, even if your voice was calm. Should the guy have skated away with no response? Maybe not, but it sounds like you know why he called you.

Regarding "what it looked like from my angle," let me give you the typical scenario, in which 98% of the players won't admit they committed a penalty. This assumes I skated hard to put myself in position, which I always did. I'm not lazy as a player, and I wasn't lazy as a ref.

Player: "What are you calling a penalty on me for?!?!?"

Me: "I got you for tripping."

Player: "What??? No way, I didn't trip him!"

Me: "I'm sorry, man, but that's what it looked like from my angle."

Player: "No way! The guy fell on his own!"

Me: "Maybe, but it looked from my angle like he had a bit of help...."

Usually, the first "what it looked from my angle" was enough, because most players know when they've committed a penalty, even if they don't admit it. But I can't remember anybody really saying any more than what I wrote. What could they say? I was in position, thought I saw a trip, so I called a trip.

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In the league I play in, alot of the refs are players too. At least drop in players, so most of us all know each other. I dont know if that makes it better or worse, lol. Sometimes there are old gripes that bubble up during games which is a PITA. Mostly, people chirp the ref a little on calls, but it is forgotten within minutes whether the call was right or wrong.

The one thing that I do get irritated with is when the refs screw around treating it like drop in game. Like dropping foam pucks instead of real pucks, or throwing the faceoff puck back to one teams defense instead of dropping it. I know its only beer league and even if we're down by 3 goals in the third, I still would like to play the game straight.

Mostly the refs are all good. We all bitch at times about calls but in the end it really is not all that important.

LOL, we had a ref the other night that called a penalty but couldnt remember who he called it on. He said "I dont even care if anyone sits in the box, lets just play 5 on 4 for a couple minutes"...LOL. Pretty laid back.

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I'm sorry, but when you say that you know what it looked like yet want to hear the ref explain what he saw, it almost sounds like you're trying to pick an argument, even if your voice was calm. Should the guy have skated away with no response? Maybe not, but it sounds like you know why he called you.

My fees, which is their pay, entitle me to an explanation. Thinking any differently is what makes a poor ref, poor management, and a poor league. I will qualify that with no referee deserves abuse, but abuse is not a player, even an angry player, asking for an explanation. There is a difference between a player going, "What the hell for?" and a player going, "What the f' are you thinking you idiot?" Getting mad at the first is on the ref, and that's a sensitivity issue, and they're in the wrong game all around if that's what bothers them. The second I'll agree could warrant a misconduct and an ejection. I'm absolutely fine with that, even though I can separate somebody speaking out of anger, and somebody trying to actually make it personal. Players still need to be in control of themselves, however, so throw them out if they become belligerent.

Regarding "what it looked like from my angle," let me give you the typical scenario, in which 98% of the players won't admit they committed a penalty. This assumes I skated hard to put myself in position, which I always did. I'm not lazy as a player, and I wasn't lazy as a ref.

Great, you're one of the good ones. You're few and far between in my league.

Usually, the first "what it looked from my angle" was enough, because most players know when they've committed a penalty, even if they don't admit it. But I can't remember anybody really saying any more than what I wrote. What could they say? I was in position, thought I saw a trip, so I called a trip.

I suppose part of my problem, which wasn't articulated in previous posts, is that the inconsistency bothers me. As one of the better players on my team and in my division, I rarely draw a penalty, regardless of how many hooks, slashes, holds, and interference calls should be called in my favour. I can almost deal with that, as I'm not the type of player to retaliate, and I'll just play through it. It annoys the hell out of me, but I can kind of understand why I don't get those calls. What does bother me, and where I yell at the refs the most aren't even necessarily calls on me. When I get practically molested on the ice, and then one of our guys gets called for doing it to the other team, I get pretty pissed. I come to play hockey, and poor or indifferent officiating not only ruins the game, but it leads to a lot of animosity on the ice, and that leads to some dangerous situations.

I reiterate, if you can't handle being a ref, don't be a ref.

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I love hockey. I love playing hockey. I love teaching hockey. And I love being a referee.

I've blown plays dead while the puck was alive on the opposite side of the net. I put my hands to my chest letting the coaches and players know that I lost sight of the puck and/or it looked like the goalie had it quickly diffuses the situation.

I've made tripping calls that looked like tripping calls, and all the way to the box the player swears he didn't do it. If there is a tiny bit of doubt in my mind that I may have gotten it wrong I'll look at my partner. If he agrees or didn't have a better look at it then I did, I tell the guy on the way to the box "sorry if I'm wrong, but that's how I saw it, so you gotta sit".

I will stop and explain rules to players. A lot of players think they know the rules and simply don't. We get paid to know the rules. Some of us know them better than others, but almost all of us know them better than the players, at least in the areas I ref.

Be respectful to me, but more importantly to the game, and I will listen to you and explain why I made a certain call. Be rude or disrespectful to me, other players, or the game, and I will not listen or respond to anything you have to say.

There are bad refs, there are lazy refs, there are refs who are simply there to pick up a paycheck. This is a problem. Sorry, I don't have a solution. I can assure you that I will do my best, pay attention to the game, and skate hard to be in the correct position to make the correct calls every time I am on the ice.

As players, I recommend not disagreeing with every call we make from the bench. I mean really, did I get every call wrong when the puck enters your zone? Was the other team offside on every play? I worked a game this past weekend and called interference. It was textbook, no question about it. Both my linesmen agreed. But, the coach still bitched and moaned from the bench. If that's how he reacts to a no-brainer, how am I supposed to not shut him out for the remainder of the game?

My favorite moment this year was in a Men's league game in NY. The defensemen knocks the net off and I blow the play dead. The captain respectfully informs me that I can award a goal for that. I advise him that I cannot. Throughout the rest of the game he insists, respectfully, that I can. I tell him we'll talk after the game. After the game, I go get my rulebook, open it to the pertinent rule and walk into the locker room. I hand him the rulebook and ask him to please read aloud for his teammates. He reads the rule, which he was wrong about, and then starts getting all sorts of shit from his teammates. I leave the room with a smile as everyone in the room is smiling as well.

I have been told from players that they love when I work their games, and that to me is the ultimate compliment. I firmly believe that if the players showed more respect to the game and officials, the officials would do a better job reffing the games. I understand but dislike the animosity between players and officials; it doesn’t have to and shouldn't be that way. We are here to make sure the game is played safely and within the rules so everyone can enjoy this sport we love.

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Great post, thanks Scorer75.

As far as respecting the game and the refs, I agree 100%. We had a player last game who had a penalty called on him who flat out refused to go to the box. He just went and sat on the bench...what the hell is that?? The ref just said basically "screw it, I dont care if you sit the penalty or not, I just dont want to argue about it."

You couldnt pay me enough to take the abuse some of these guys dish out on the refs game after game. Its a frickin' embarassment (to steal a line from a classic movie...)

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My fees, which is their pay, entitle me to an explanation. Thinking any differently is what makes a poor ref, poor management, and a poor league. I will qualify that with no referee deserves abuse, but abuse is not a player, even an angry player, asking for an explanation. There is a difference between a player going, "What the hell for?" and a player going, "What the f' are you thinking you idiot?" Getting mad at the first is on the ref, and that's a sensitivity issue, and they're in the wrong game all around if that's what bothers them. The second I'll agree could warrant a misconduct and an ejection. I'm absolutely fine with that, even though I can separate somebody speaking out of anger, and somebody trying to actually make it personal. Players still need to be in control of themselves, however, so throw them out if they become belligerent.

I reiterate, if you can't handle being a ref, don't be a ref.

With all due respect, if even 10% of this attitude comes across on the ice, you are more than likely causing problems for yourself down the road.

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There is a difference between a player going, "What the hell for?" and a player going, "What the f' are you thinking you idiot?" Getting mad at the first is on the ref, and that's a sensitivity issue, and they're in the wrong game all around if that's what bothers them.

I'm sorry that you feel "what the hell for?" is an acceptable request for an explanation. You will never get an explanation from me with a request like that. And no, it's never personal. I demand respect, but not for me. I demand respect for the game and for the uniform I wear as an official. Try asking "what'd you get me for?" or something similar to that and you will more than likely get the answer you are looking for.

We had a player last game who had a penalty called on him who flat out refused to go to the box. He just went and sat on the bench...what the hell is that?? The ref just said basically "screw it, I dont care if you sit the penalty or not, I just dont want to argue about it."

Sounds like a lazy official setting a bad precedent. There rulebook clearly states how to deal with that and it works. Here is the sequence:

Minor, misconduct, game misconduct, warning to the Captain, 15 seconds to comply, bench minor penalty, warning to the captain, 15 seconds to comply, suspension of game with a match penalty to the offending player.

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With all due respect, if even 10% of this attitude comes across on the ice, you are more than likely causing problems for yourself down the road.

Probably not. Seem to be getting fewer and fewer penalties, but I'm still asking refs to be accountable.

I'm sorry that you feel "what the hell for?" is an acceptable request for an explanation. You will never get an explanation from me with a request like that. And no, it's never personal. I demand respect, but not for me. I demand respect for the game and for the uniform I wear as an official. Try asking "what'd you get me for?" or something similar to that and you will more than likely get the answer you are looking for.

I'm saying it's a game where tempers flare. If a ref can't seperate somebody being angry, from somebody being angry at them, they shouldn't ref. Period.

Respect is earned. You don't have my respect just because you decided to take a course and put on a striped shirt. You get my respect from doing a good job, that, again, you get paid for.

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Personally, I start out with respect for the game and the rules, which includes the referee position and its duties. The individual wearing the striped shirt can earn or lose respect as a person, but I still have to respect the rules, which include the necessity of a referee, and accepting the calls, good or bad, so that we can play the game.

I'm sure you respect the position, at least to the point that you go to the box when you're told to.

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Personally, I start out with respect for the game and the rules, which includes the referee position and its duties. The individual wearing the striped shirt can earn or lose respect as a person, but I still have to respect the rules, which include the necessity of a referee, and accepting the calls, good or bad, so that we can play the game.

I'm sure you respect the position, at least to the point that you go to the box when you're told to.

My parents used to tell me "You don't have to respect the person, but you do have to respect the position that they hold" whenever I complained about a teacher or boss. Beyond that, I agree with your other comment. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it.

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Great post, thanks Scorer75.

As far as respecting the game and the refs, I agree 100%. We had a player last game who had a penalty called on him who flat out refused to go to the box. He just went and sat on the bench...what the hell is that?? The ref just said basically "screw it, I dont care if you sit the penalty or not, I just dont want to argue about it."

You couldnt pay me enough to take the abuse some of these guys dish out on the refs game after game. Its a frickin' embarassment (to steal a line from a classic movie...)

I never had it happen to me when reffing but if a guy ever refused to get in the box then his night would be over. I'm sure it is in the rulebook somewhere but I can't remember if it is a 10 minute misconduct or the gate.

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My favorite moment this year was in a Men's league game in NY. The defensemen knocks the net off and I blow the play dead. The captain respectfully informs me that I can award a goal for that. I advise him that I cannot. Throughout the rest of the game he insists, respectfully, that I can. I tell him we'll talk after the game. After the game, I go get my rulebook, open it to the pertinent rule and walk into the locker room. I hand him the rulebook and ask him to please read aloud for his teammates. He reads the rule, which he was wrong about, and then starts getting all sorts of shit from his teammates. I leave the room with a smile as everyone in the room is smiling as well.

We just got done with a local Holiday tournament in between the Christmas / New Years schedule break. One of our games went to a shootout and the opposing player (who was up to shoot) skated past the puck and "forgot" to take it with him. :facepalm: It looked like he had touched it with his stick on the way by and many of our team thought the attempt was dead. However, the referee (who we have known for a number of years) let him circle back and take his attempt. He didn't score, so end result is mute. But, there was some conversation afterwards with the referee on how that was supposed to be handled. It came down to 2 things (which the ref was right on both accounts). 1. He didn't actually touch the puck and the ref's angle made that obvious. 2. Rule book wording vs what some of my teammates "thought" the rule was clarified what happened. The awesome thing was that one of my teammates was very confident in his interpretation of the rule so the ref brought the rulebook in after the game was done and read it aloud for everyone. And yes, my teammate took plenty of crap from all of us. The conversation between our bench and the ref was good natured as we have a good relationship with him so it was no big deal.

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I never had it happen to me when reffing but if a guy ever refused to get in the box then his night would be over. I'm sure it is in the rulebook somewhere but I can't remember if it is a 10 minute misconduct or the gate.
Since it was a player on my team, I kept my mouth shut and we just played shorthanded. As the "captain" (err...organizer)I should have harrassed him about it, but he's a loudmouthed sniveler and I dont get any enjoyment from confronting people like that, I just want to play hockey.

I was really hoping the ref would just step up and boot his ass from the game, but he just let it go. I dont entirely blame the ref, I could tell he was tired of the verbal pissing match and meanwhile the clock is running the whole time.

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