Embellishment

[chippa13 1844]

We seem to have started what could turn into a hearty conversation in the Bruins thread. As no city seems to be immune (some are worse than others, we can all agree on that) what does the league do to curb the problem. With the increased responsibility on the shoulders of officials to protect players, they are being put in a tougher spot every game as players are hamming up just about any iffy hit along the boards or anything close to head contact. The league tried fines for diving, it tried naming names, but those tactics haven't removed it from the game. Referees rarely make embellishment calls and they never send just the diver. What is to be done?

Thoughts?

[Chadd 916]

Serious fines and suspensions from the department of player safety. Since they aren't really doing that for head shots, don't hold your breath.

[hamstercaster 2]

This probably an area where it's even harder to make the call than some illegal hits. Sometimes it's quite obvious but more often than not it's really not that simple. Like Chippa said, with the focus being on player safety, it seems as though the referees will often give the benefit of the doubt to the players. Should there be an extra off ice referee that would have the power to make a call? Should the linesmen be allowed to call for embellishment? What do you consider as embellishment? Where do you draw the line. So many calls are subjective and it seems to happen so often that you see the referee standing right there in the play where the "infraction" occurred and he doesn't lift his arm to call the infraction but the referee that's 70 feet away does.

The game is at its fastest ever so sometimes what may look like embellishment may be caused by the momentum of the player skating full speed. Other times it's quite easy to spot the embellishment and it should be called as is. Before handing out fines and suspensions, they should start by calling it on the ice. Perhaps if you are going to call embellishment, do not penalize the other player? If there was indeed an infraction but the player embellished it, give him an extra 2? If that player is a repeat offender, say he got caught embellishing 5 times, then fine or suspend him perhaps?

[wrangler 157]

Chadd's got a point. For the reasons everyone knows, it's very hard for the refs to make these calls well at the time. The league is in the best position to review a player's pattern of conduct, and apply sanctions. Unfortunately, getting them to move can be tough.

It seems that without the league office initiating a push on this, we're stuck with what we have -- the grapevine making the refs aware of the known divers, so that these guys are more likely to be called for embellishment.

Julien's got a point about it being bad for the game, and the teams should stop doing it. But how do you get 32 teams to sign on, for getting tough with their own players about embellishing?

[Chadd 916]

This probably an area where it's even harder to make the call than some illegal hits. Sometimes it's quite obvious but more often than not it's really not that simple. Like Chippa said, with the focus being on player safety, it seems as though the referees will often give the benefit of the doubt to the players. Should there be an extra off ice referee that would have the power to make a call? Should the linesmen be allowed to call for embellishment? What do you consider as embellishment? Where do you draw the line. So many calls are subjective and it seems to happen so often that you see the referee standing right there in the play where the "infraction" occurred and he doesn't lift his arm to call the infraction but the referee that's 70 feet away does.

The game is at its fastest ever so sometimes what may look like embellishment may be caused by the momentum of the player skating full speed. Other times it's quite easy to spot the embellishment and it should be called as is. Before handing out fines and suspensions, they should start by calling it on the ice. Perhaps if you are going to call embellishment, do not penalize the other player? If there was indeed an infraction but the player embellished it, give him an extra 2? If that player is a repeat offender, say he got caught embellishing 5 times, then fine or suspend him perhaps?

In one breath you say the game is the fastest it has ever been and point out the difficulty an official has in making the calls. Then you follow it up by saying that the officials should have to factor in all of the factors that go into embellishment as well. Having the league office do it means that the same sets of eyes will be making those decisions, theoretically ensuring a more consistent approach. After a single warning from the league office, public or not, a fine and then suspensions for repeat offenders.

Julien's got a point about it being bad for the game, and the teams should stop doing it. But how do you get 32 teams to sign on, for getting tough with their own players about embellishing?

Especially when a slight advantage at the right time can mean the difference between a win and a loss.

[camhockey16 5]

if soccer/football can't get rid of diving what chance does the nhl have? then again maybe they aren't trying to get rid of it - but i think the nhl should be trying to

[wrangler 157]

Especially when a slight advantage at the right time can mean the difference between a win and a loss.

And, so, even a playoff series -- even the Finals, and the Cup.

A lot of times those calls might not get made. But depending on how bad they look, it can happen.

[Chadd 916]

if soccer/football can't get rid of diving what chance does the nhl have? then again maybe they aren't trying to get rid of it - but i think the nhl should be trying to

All it takes is a concerted effort from the league. Simply add diving to the list of things they look for every night in the player safety video room.

[gerbe3:16 19]

Honest question. In the NHL, is there a lot of uncalled hooking, tripping, etc. that occurs but doesn't draw attention/a penalty because a player tries to fight through it and doesn't go down? I can't honestly answer that question, but I do know that this is a problem in other places and I believe there is a direct correlation between the two problems where this is prevalent.

[Chadd 916]

It has been creeping back into the game over the last several years.

[chippa13 1844]

Not so much this year with the latest crackdown on obstruction type fouls. Pretty much any stick near the hands has been a hooking call, sometimes even on innocent stick lifts. On the plus side, at least refs aren't tossing the word obstruction around like it is going out of style.

[wrangler 157]

There's still a lot of interference, no matter what they say about tightening up. You'll see the occasional call that wouldn't get called last year, but still a whole lot of stuff isn't called.

There's also a lot that's let go under the guise of "finishing his check".

I will say that the elbowing, slashing, hooking and holding (of player and stick) is nothing like it was 30-40 years ago. Though it seems to me there's more fighting nowadays. Maybe back then more players took the Gordie Howe approach to payback -- you'd get it when you went into a corner with him.

[troy 12]

Not so much this year with the latest crackdown on obstruction type fouls. Pretty much any stick near the hands has been a hooking call, sometimes even on innocent stick lifts. On the plus side, at least refs aren't tossing the word obstruction around like it is going out of style.

I always hated the announcement of "obstruction ..., two minutes." No shit a stick wrapped around a waist would be obstructive.

[Chadd 916]

Not so much this year with the latest crackdown on obstruction type fouls. Pretty much any stick near the hands has been a hooking call, sometimes even on innocent stick lifts. On the plus side, at least refs aren't tossing the word obstruction around like it is going out of style.

The stick to the hands is an automatic call, but holding a guy to the boards long after the puck is gone and hooks to the body away from the puck still seem to be called less.

[camhockey16 5]

i notice a lot of defenders do one handed light slashes to the hands/arms/etc.. that pretty much never get called

the slashes to injure get called - but a lot of the lighter stuff doesnt seem to

i was going to try to find a good example of it on youtube but i'm not sure how to even search for it..

[chippa13 1844]

Those one handers can hurt plenty if you've got that wrist flick just right.

[Steve_v3 275]

This probably an area where it's even harder to make the call than some illegal hits. Sometimes it's quite obvious but more often than not it's really not that simple. Like Chippa said, with the focus being on player safety, it seems as though the referees will often give the benefit of the doubt to the players. Should there be an extra off ice referee that would have the power to make a call? Should the linesmen be allowed to call for embellishment? What do you consider as embellishment? Where do you draw the line. So many calls are subjective and it seems to happen so often that you see the referee standing right there in the play where the "infraction" occurred and he doesn't lift his arm to call the infraction but the referee that's 70 feet away does.

The game is at its fastest ever so sometimes what may look like embellishment may be caused by the momentum of the player skating full speed. Other times it's quite easy to spot the embellishment and it should be called as is. Before handing out fines and suspensions, they should start by calling it on the ice. Perhaps if you are going to call embellishment, do not penalize the other player? If there was indeed an infraction but the player embellished it, give him an extra 2? If that player is a repeat offender, say he got caught embellishing 5 times, then fine or suspend him perhaps?

I think that may be a good start.

Have the embellishment wipe out the penalty and I think that would help minimize it. I think Chadd's idea was good too. Have the games reviewed every night for embellishment.

[wrangler 157]

I don't think it's a good idea to give a free pass on any penalty. If you want the team called for embellishment to hurt more, make it 3 or 4 minutes. But it's just too damn hard to get those calls right at the time.

Hey, how about if the guy's down for more than a 10-count, he has to hit the showers.

[Chadd 916]

Hell, make diving a 2+10 and it will start to go away as soon as guys start calling it.

[wrangler 157]

I kinda like the idea of "if you're hurt that badly, you're going to the dressing room, you'll get immediate medical attention, and you're done for the night for precautionary reasons". It doesn't have to be a penalty, and it would obviously be for the guys who seem hurt. If they're hurt, it's a good idea, and if they're really not, it'll serve 'em right.

[JonoDigz 4]

We seem to have started what could turn into a hearty conversation in the Bruins thread. As no city seems to be immune (some are worse than others, we can all agree on that) what does the league do to curb the problem. With the increased responsibility on the shoulders of officials to protect players, they are being put in a tougher spot every game as players are hamming up just about any iffy hit along the boards or anything close to head contact. The league tried fines for diving, it tried naming names, but those tactics haven't removed it from the game. Referees rarely make embellishment calls and they never send just the diver. What is to be done?

Thoughts?

I believe the only way to get rid of embelishing/flopping is with suspensions. The refs are watching out for it, but the game is to fast and players are much to good at there acting skills. Shannahan needs to look at every incident and start giving game or games suspensions. Forget about the fines. The only thing I have a hard time with is when you see a player flinch or jerk there head in the opposit way of a high stick. The ref can mistakenly think he was hit and make call or the ref can call an embelishment penelty over a normal reaction of not wanting to get hit in the face.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

That video is what started this thread, no need to post it again...and again...and again...and again (we've had to delete it 4 times so far in this thread.)

[bigdmac 12]

I like Chadd's 2+10 rule. Call that a couple times and you bet people would stop diving.

[Chadd 916]

I believe the only way to get rid of embelishing/flopping is with suspensions. The refs are watching out for it, but the game is to fast and players are much to good at there acting skills. Shannahan needs to look at every incident and start giving game or games suspensions. Forget about the fines. The only thing I have a hard time with is when you see a player flinch or jerk there head in the opposit way of a high stick. The ref can mistakenly think he was hit and make call or the ref can call an embelishment penelty over a normal reaction of not wanting to get hit in the face.

While I agree, the refs should retain the right to call anything they can comfortably identify.

[IPv6Freely 2083]

+1 on 2+10