How to defend against highly skilled player?

[psulion22 402]

21 hours ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

At minimum. If I wanted to throw the book at him (seems like he had it coming to him), I could go with a 5 + GM for a spear haha. Technically, that is what a jab with toe is. 

This is what I immediately though of when he said it.  Depending on how hard it was, you could even give a match.

 

21 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

I wish more beer league refs would do things like this. It would seriously curb the BS pretty quickly. 

 

15 hours ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

I agree. I'm not there to call every men's league game like I'm being evaluated but I'm also not going to let stuff like that go. Last thing I need is someone getting hurt on my watch due to some meathead showing how 'tough' he/she is haha. Not worth it. We all got wake up the next day and pay bills.

Honestly, you shouldn't be reffing like you're being evaluated.  You should be reffing so that everyone goes to work in the morning.  I truly believe that USAHockey needs to establish standards of play for adult hockey that all sanctioned leagues must follow.  After being seriously injured on the ice by a play that was intentional and outside of what is acceptable at any point in life (except maybe in a MMA or WWE capacity) and having no concern from the officials on the ice, the directors at the rink, or the supervisor of officials for the district, I'm no longer tolerant of referees who refuse to protect the players on the ice.  That is what your job is in beer league.  Period.  I've seen way too many refs let way too much dangerous play go because that isn't how they would call a junior or travel game, or they simply just don't give a fuck.  If anyone does anything questionable, they should be tossed.  End of story.  Adult classifications should have a lot more plays that carry mandatory 10's and GM's.

[psulion22 402]

And as far as the topic of this thread, watching the body not the puck is essential.  But no one mentioned "blade mirroring" aka "stick on puck".  A defender can become significantly more effective if it just places the stick in front of and close to the opponent's stick wherever it goes.  It's much easier to disrupt a skilled player this way.   The old way was to keep your stick in tight so you could poke check.  That created way too much space for the player to make plays with the puck aside from just deking on you.  If you just stuck the stick out, the forward would know how far your reach was and could pass the puck through the "triangle" easier.  Blade mirroring is a much more active approach to disrupting the play.  I Here's an excellent video of Scott Stevens explaining it.  Just like Stevens, I didn't learn this until late in my career, just a few years ago.  I have become a significantly more effective defenseman since learning it.

 

The best process of playing defense is this:

1.  Keep close to the play going up ice.  The closer you are to the play, the less gap and space you have to the opposing forwards in the event of a turnover.  So you have a better chance of stopping that high level player if you can engage him as he gets the puck rather than when he has a full head of steam and a ton of space between you.

2.  When the play transitions, read the forward leaving the zone without the puck rather than the player in the zone breaking it out.  What often happens is that a defender bails early and just backs up so that a forward doesn't get behind you.  Obviously we don't want that.  But a lot of the time, you leave too much space from that guy just to keep him in front of you.  So when the other team gets the puck, read the player that's coming out of the zone and stay close to him.  If he gets the breakout off the wall, you're right there.  If not, you're in a better position when the play moves forward.  You don't want to be at your blue line, when the highest opposing player is at the red line.  You give too much space.  This also applies in the neutral zone.  If the other team is breaking the puck through the middle and puts the puck out wide, by reading the player coming through the middle, you can make a better decision on which player to engage and possibly force an off sides or a dump in.

3. Use the ice markings to establish "inside-out" position.  Essentially when playing D, you want to be inside of the faceoff dots, keeping the opponent outside of them.  When the other team is coming on offense, you want to position yourself at the dots (should be easy to identify since they run in a straight line down the rink).  Doing that will force the opponent to the space outside the dots, which is much less dangerous.  So when we're talking about that better player, you want to be at the faceoff dots, so you can lead him to the outside and he doesn't have the space to get back inside.

4. Control gap and go stick on puck.  Once you have the inside lane, you want to be close enough to the player, skating backwards as his speed, that you can get your stick close to his.  This will most likely cause him to try one of a few things - deke inside, skate outside, shoot, pass, or slow down/ turn back.  Proper sitck on puck should take away the shot and pass.  Stick on puck and watching his body should make the inside deke/drag difficult for him.  That should leave either skating outside and trying to beat you wide, or pulling up.  

5.  Close the space and force the play.  If the player tries to go wide, you keep stick on puck and skate at an angle towards the boards, taking away the room he had.  If he turns back, read his inside passing options (step 2 above), and close the space and attack the puck, keeping stick on puck and watching the body, if you can.

Stick on puck is the key because, just like explained in the video, it allows you to make "passive" plays on the puck - disrupting shots, passes, and dekes - just by having your stick in the right place.

Another tip: try to play on your strong side - RH on the right, LH on the left.  It gives you a longer reach to the inside (read; the dangerous area) because your stick will be in your inside hand.  It also means chip outs, breakout passes, and plays on the boards will be on your forehand, which is more effective.

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

2 hours ago, psulion22 said:

This is what I immediately though of when he said it.  Depending on how hard it was, you could even give a match.

 

 

Honestly, you shouldn't be reffing like you're being evaluated.  You should be reffing so that everyone goes to work in the morning.  I truly believe that USAHockey needs to establish standards of play for adult hockey that all sanctioned leagues must follow.  After being seriously injured on the ice by a play that was intentional and outside of what is acceptable at any point in life (except maybe in a MMA or WWE capacity) and having no concern from the officials on the ice, the directors at the rink, or the supervisor of officials for the district, I'm no longer tolerant of referees who refuse to protect the players on the ice.  That is what your job is in beer league.  Period.  I've seen way too many refs let way too much dangerous play go because that isn't how they would call a junior or travel game, or they simply just don't give a fuck.  If anyone does anything questionable, they should be tossed.  End of story.  Adult classifications should have a lot more plays that carry mandatory 10's and GM's.

I'm assuming you've never officiated before because you'd understand what I'm trying to say. If I were evaluated during a men's league game, I'd 'fail' haha. Majority of men's league players don't know how to work around an official who works higher level hockey. So, for the sake of my safety, I purposely don't keep 'proper' positioning to make sure I survive  the whole game. 

In regards to the standards of USAH, the rules are perfectly fine. There isn't enough money involved for USAH to make a separate standard for Adult hockey. What USAH allows is for any league to go ABOVE AND BEYOND the official rule book. Your rink/league is who you should have a beef with. The rink sets the higher standard and assignor, officials and players have to fall in line. Let me know if you can pull that off. I wouldn't hold my breath. 

[psulion22 402]

15 minutes ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

I'm assuming you've never officiated before because you'd understand what I'm trying to say. If I were evaluated during a men's league game, I'd 'fail' haha. Majority of men's league players don't know how to work around an official who works higher level hockey. So, for the sake of my safety, I purposely don't keep 'proper' positioning to make sure I survive  the whole game. 

In regards to the standards of USAH, the rules are perfectly fine. There isn't enough money involved for USAH to make a separate standard for Adult hockey. What USAH allows is for any league to go ABOVE AND BEYOND the official rule book. Your rink/league is who you should have a beef with. The rink sets the higher standard and assignor, officials and players have to fall in line. Let me know if you can pull that off. I wouldn't hold my breath. 

I have reffed.  And that's my point.  You should be more worried about keeping yourself and the players on the ice safe than being in the proper position.  So yes, you'd fail an evaluation because you're in the wrong position and possibly missed a call because of it.  So we're saying the same thing.  I'm ore concerned with a ref keeping everyone (including themselves) safe than not missing an icing, goal, or offside.

That's just passing the buck.  Everyone can just point fingers and say it's someone else's responsibility when something bad does happen.  This rink has higher standards.  They aren't adhered to.  The rink doesn't hold the refs accountable, and since they aren't USAHockey rules, the district doesn't either.  I'll then assume you've never been seriously hurt and been told by ther refs that it was an accident, and only assessed a double minor (when an injury mandates a game misconduct for injuring an opponent) for "roughing".  Then told by the league that it wasn't a big deal because that's what the refs said and just because we filed a grievance that doesn't mean they will do anything about it, and the director for the refs the same thing.  Have your back broken by a player who body slams you from the ice after a whistle and come back and tell me that there shouldn't be a higher standard.  The bottom line is that referees aren't held accountable in adult league because the standards set for them by the rulebook are too low.  Higher standards set by rinks don't work because that causes inconsistency from rink to rink, league to league, and official to official.

Edited July 28, 2017 by psulion22

[IPv6Freely 2082]

24 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

I'll then assume you've never been seriously hurt and been told by ther refs that it was an accident, and only assessed a double minor (when an injury mandates a game misconduct for injuring an opponent) for "roughing". 

The guy who tackled me from behind and broke my ankle did get tossed, though somehow I ended up with a fighting major. Still haven’t figured that one out. I guess because they gave him one they had to give me one too?

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

26 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

That's just passing the buck.  Everyone can just point fingers and say it's someone else's responsibility when something bad does happen.  This rink has higher standards.  They aren't adhered to.  The rink doesn't hold the refs accountable, and since they aren't USAHockey rules, the district doesn't either.  I'll then assume you've never been seriously hurt and been told by ther refs that it was an accident, and only assessed a double minor (when an injury mandates a game misconduct for injuring an opponent) for "roughing".  Then told by the league that it wasn't a big deal because that's what the refs said and just because we filed a grievance that doesn't mean they will do anything about it, and the director for the refs the same thing.  Have your back broken by a player who body slams you from the ice after a whistle and come back and tell me that there shouldn't be a higher standard.  The bottom line is that referees aren't held accountable in adult league because the standards set for them by the rulebook are too low.  Higher standards set by rinks don't work because that causes inconsistency from rink to rink, league to league, and official to official.

You're making my argument. No, I've never been seriously injured playing at any level so I can see your frustration. If USAH raises their standard JUST for the Adult classification it still wouldn't solve your problem: Inconsistency. For one, having that would essentially give guys like me to memorize 4 different rule books (USA Youth, USA Junior, USA Adult and NCAA). And that's not including NHFS rules that we use here locally for prep school (I've only done one game but hope to do more). That's ridiculous haha. Secondly, rinks DON'T have to be USAH-sanctioned (as you would know because of the rink you play at). I play at two rinks, one is and one isn't. The one that isn't sanctioned has better officiating than the one that does. I also officiate the lower levels at the non-sanctioned rink. The rink can either have an assignor do the assignments or do the assigning themselves. Either way, the rink sets the standard. So even if USAH made every infraction at the Adult classification, at minimum, a 5 + GM, you still need people to call. And if a non-sanctioned rink wants do whatever it wants, even with higher standards, USAH is off the hook. It does fall on the rink whether you like it or not.

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

7 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

The guy who tackled me from behind and broke my ankle did get tossed, though somehow I ended up with a fighting major. Still haven’t figured that one out. I guess because they gave him one they had to give me one too?

You'd have to ask the official that. Inconsistency is found where a law/rule is expected to be administered. That's the reality of hockey, sports and life in general. 

[psulion22 402]

41 minutes ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

You're making my argument. No, I've never been seriously injured playing at any level so I can see your frustration. If USAH raises their standard JUST for the Adult classification it still wouldn't solve your problem: Inconsistency. For one, having that would essentially give guys like me to memorize 4 different rule books (USA Youth, USA Junior, USA Adult and NCAA). And that's not including NHFS rules that we use here locally for prep school (I've only done one game but hope to do more). That's ridiculous haha. Secondly, rinks DON'T have to be USAH-sanctioned (as you would know because of the rink you play at). I play at two rinks, one is and one isn't. The one that isn't sanctioned has better officiating than the one that does. I also officiate the lower levels at the non-sanctioned rink. The rink can either have an assignor do the assignments or do the assigning themselves. Either way, the rink sets the standard. So even if USAH made every infraction at the Adult classification, at minimum, a 5 + GM, you still need people to call. And if a non-sanctioned rink wants do whatever it wants, even with higher standards, USAH is off the hook. It does fall on the rink whether you like it or not.

This rink is the practice facility of the Florida Panthers and the home of the Jr Panthers.  The USAHockey Nationals were recently held here.  It's a USAHockey sanctioned league in the highest order.

Your argument doesn't hold up.  There are already different rules and penalties for adult classifications in the USA rulebook.  So you already need to know all of those different versions of the rulebook.  We're talking about increasing the penalties for dangerous plays.  But more importantly, mandating the standard of play.  Just like with other rules, like head contact, there is a defined standard that states how the rule is to be applied and provide examples.  That is the key.  It's the training and awareness that's important to making sure the rules are applied correctly.  Just as there is already rules pertaining to stick fouls and obstruction in the books, and there had to be a standard developed for adherance to the application of those rules, so it works the same here.  It's a matter of saying that this is how these rules are to be called, without exception, in the interest of safety.

You've completely disproven your stance.  If the non-sanctioned league has better officiating because they are outside the USA Hockey bubble, it would mean that USA Hockey has lower standards, irregardless of the rink.  When the standards from USA Hockey are inadequate, and the referee training and emphasis from USA Hockey are inadequate, the officiating at USA Hockey sanctioned rinks is going to be inadequate.  The standard will fall to the lowest common denominator, especially wehn the scheduling, training, evaluation, and oversight is done by the party with the inadequate standards.

You can't say that it's up to your local McDonald's to maintain higher standards when the policies, regulations, training, and corporate culture mandated by the parent company are inadequate.

Edited July 28, 2017 by psulion22

[psulion22 402]

And what I'm hearing is a lot of "I ref high level hockey, so that's too important to worry about what some benders in C league are doing."  And that right there is why USA Hockey needs to take the initiative.  The standards and reasons of play between travel hockey and beer league are incredibly different, but one is not more important than the other.  More equal emphasis needs to be placed.

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

11 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

This rink is the practice facility of the Florida Panthers and the home of the Jr Panthers.  The USAHockey Nationals were recently held here.  It's a USAHockey sanctioned league in the highest order.

Your argument doesn't hold up.  There are already different rules and penalties for adult classifications in the USA rulebook.  So you already need to know all of those different versions of the rulebook.  We're talking about increasing the penalties for dangerous plays.  But more importantly, mandating the standard of play.  Just like with other rules, like head contact, there is a defined standard that states how the rule is to be applied and provide examples.  That is the key.  It's the training and awareness that's important to making sure the rules are applied correctly.

You've completely disproven your stance.  If the non-sanctioned league has better officiating because they are outside the USA Hockey bubble, it would mean that USA Hockey has lower standards, irregardless of the rink.  When the standards from USA Hockey are inadequate, and the referee training and emphasis from USA Hockey are inadequate, the officiating at USA Hockey sanctioned rinks is going to be inadequate.  The standard will fall to the lowest common denominator, especially wehn the scheduling, training, evaluation, and oversight is done by the party with the inadequate standards.

You can't say that it's up to your local McDonald's to maintain higher standards when the policies, regulations, training, and corporate culture mandated by the parent company are inadequate.

Haha alright. You're missing my point. You have a personal vendetta against USAH. I can't blame you since, per your words, were seriously hurt. All I can say is that if penalties aren't called, it doesn't matter how stringent the rules are. It all comes to the specific referee's judgement. The RINK is responsible for officials who step on the ice when it comes to adult hockey. Like I mentioned, even if every infraction is now, at minimum, a 5 + GM it won't mean anything if the referee(s) DOESN'T it haha. I don't know how you aren't seeing that. USAH will only do so much. And once, it comes down to money. Just like everything else in life. I can assure that all of the levels of USAH, the Adult classification will ALWAYS be the most lenient.  

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

1 minute ago, psulion22 said:

And what I'm hearing is a lot of "I ref high level hockey, so that's too important to worry about what some benders in C league are doing."  And that right there is why USA Hockey needs to take the initiative.  The standards and reasons of play between travel hockey and beer league are incredibly different, but one is not more important than the other.  More equal emphasis needs to be placed.

Trust me, I know no one cares what level(s) I officiate. But I can tell you that the higher levels have made me a better adult league official. They don't have to know it, but they are benefiting from me, or any other official for that fact, working higher levels.

[psulion22 402]

6 minutes ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Haha alright. You're missing my point. You have a personal vendetta against USAH. I can't blame you since, per your words, were seriously hurt. All I can say is that if penalties aren't called, it doesn't matter how stringent the rules are. It all comes to the specific referee's judgement. The RINK is responsible for officials who step on the ice when it comes to adult hockey. Like I mentioned, even if every infraction is now, at minimum, a 5 + GM it won't mean anything if the referee(s) DOESN'T it haha. I don't know how you aren't seeing that. USAH will only do so much. And once, it comes down to money. Just like everything else in life. I can assure that all of the levels of USAH, the Adult classification will ALWAYS be the most lenient.  

My vendetta is against referees who do not receive the training and emphasis adequate to perform their jobs.

If USAHockey makes every call in adult league a 5, it;s getting called a 5.  End of story.  I'm not exactly sure why you can't understand that.  Do you typically ignore the USA Hockey rulebook in your calls? That's the point.  They need to improve the minimum standard for enforcement on unsafe plays.  The rinks can have higher standards, but when the refs are scheduled, trained, and overseen by the same governing body, and the problem persists at all of the rinks, regardless of the standards of that rink, the issue lies with the governing body.  Plain and simple.

I understand why things are the way they are.  My point is they shouldn't be that way.

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

Anyone who wears the crest gets the training. It's up the individual referee to make the call. If the assignor/rink doesn't step in, any referee can do whatever he/she wants. The speed limit may 35 on the highway. If the trooper passes on pulling you over, is the speed limit itself fault? That's my point.

[psulion22 402]

13 minutes ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Trust me, I know no one cares what level(s) I officiate. But I can tell you that the higher levels have made me a better adult league official. They don't have to know it, but they are benefiting from me, or any other official for that fact, working higher levels.

So you're saying you've benefitted and improved from further education and training, as well as increased emphasis on standard of play and officiating?  Did each individual rink give that to you?  Or was it instilled in you by USA Hockey, who governs your proficiency as an official?

Again, you're saying it's up to each rink to protect their players because USA Hockey is unwilling to do it (for financial reasons).  I'm saying that is what needs to change.

[psulion22 402]

Just now, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Anyone who wears the crest gets the training. It's up the individual referee to make the call. If the assignor/rink doesn't step in, any referee can do whatever he/she wants. The speed limit may 35 on the highway. If the trooper passes on pulling you over, is the speed limit itself fault? That's my point.

The assignor works for USA Hockey at all rinks in South Florida.  Sooooooo

If they place an emphasis to that trooper that they need to crack down on speeding, he'll crack down on speeding.  Try again.

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

1 minute ago, psulion22 said:

The assignor works for USA Hockey at all rinks in South Florida.  Sooooooo

If they place an emphasis to that trooper that they need to crack down on speeding, he'll crack down on speeding.  Try again.

Haha we'll never see eye-to-eye. I'm off to SummerJam. Enjoy your weekend my friend. I hope the change you are looking for comes swiftly. 

[Jamarquan 201]

Deleted 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Jamarquan

[chippa13 1844]

Gentlemen, we're talking beer league here. All the assignor cares about is his guys and getting his cut. The only way to get rid of bad refs is to pester the guy running the league.

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

On 7/29/2017 at 0:09 PM, chippa13 said:

Gentlemen, we're talking beer league here. All the assignor cares about is his guys and getting his cut. The only way to get rid of bad refs is to pester the guy running the league.

That's exactly my point. 

[agtg 1]

Maybe your forwards should be a little more aggressive on the forecheck to keep that team from breaking this guy out all the time. Better yet, assign a forward to shadow him and reduce passing opportunities to him as they're trying to break out of their zone.

As far as for you as a defenseman, the best way to handle a guy like that is to stay three steps ahead of him as he rushes the puck. Use your body wisely, drive him wide to the boards, force him to back up and scroll back to look for an outlet pass or leave the zone altogether.

If he tries to make a power move as he encroaches, your only hope is to stick check the puck out of his control. He will probably turn you into a human turnstile the first few times you try, but don't give up. Eventually you will start to get good at it. Develop that skill, it's an important one for a defenseman even if your opponent is at your own level.  Eventually, you will get good enough to simply take the puck away from the other guy and take control for your team. 

Whatever you do, as you back up into your own zone, don't let this guy turn you into a shroud to hide behind and shoot surprise shots that your goalie won't be able to see where they're coming from. That's a quick way for a defenseman to piss off their goalie. 

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by agtg

[fastmiele 59]

On 2017-08-01 at 9:12 PM, agtg said:

Maybe your forwards should be a little more aggressive on the forecheck to keep that team from breaking this guy out all the time. Better yet, assign a forward to shadow him and reduce passing opportunities to him as they're trying to break out of their zone.

As far as for you as a defenseman, the best way to handle a guy like that is to stay three steps ahead of him as he rushes the puck. Use your body wisely, drive him wide to the boards, force him to back up and scroll back to look for an outlet pass or leave the zone altogether.

If he tries to make a power move as he encroaches, your only hope is to stick check the puck out of his control. He will probably turn you into a human turnstile the first few times you try, but don't give up. Eventually you will start to get good at it. Develop that skill, it's an important one for a defenseman even if your opponent is at your own level.  Eventually, you will get good enough to simply take the puck away from the other guy and take control for your team. 

Whatever you do, as you back up into your own zone, don't let this guy turn you into a shroud to hide behind and shoot surprise shots that your goalie won't be able to see where they're coming from. That's a quick way for a defenseman to piss off their goalie. 

 

No, that's only in theory. I've tried those techniques and they have limited success against a player who is significantly stronger, faster and skilled. Even though I was expecting it I couldn't react fast enough.

Imagine a 35 year old player streaking down the ice one on one against a 70 year old player (of similar skill level), the sheer speed and reaction timing will allow the 35 year old to get around.

The only real thing I can think of that really gives the team a chance is not fore check and do a defensive trap, especially if the player doesn't pass.

https://ibb.co/mW6PX5

Look at this photo, its like a wolf pack. Surround him, suffocate him, hack and slash at the stick and puck at the right time. This gives you best the chance at knocking the puck off him.

 

[215BroadStBullies610 434]

Teamwork makes the dream work...

[Haggerty 142]

On 7/29/2017 at 0:09 PM, chippa13 said:

Gentlemen, we're talking beer league here. All the assignor cares about is his guys and getting his cut. The only way to get rid of bad refs is to pester the guy running the league.

Lies, every game is for the STANLEY CUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /end sarcasm

[Playmakersedge 58]

Pretty much it's all covered here . I played three games of roller hockey ,I kept on tearing the wheels  and I remember there being less players on the rink and playing with a ball .   

The last ice hockey league I played had some talented players.  A friend of one of the other players on the other team was filling in ,good but nothing remarkable probably in his early twenties  .   We were in play and it was no check, I shoot from the far left hash marks and put it in and there's this guy in my path as I'm still in motion so I jump on the binders and I bump the guy. I mean if he was holding a pint of beer he wouldn't have spilled any . The next thing I know I got this guy winging his stick like a bat at my head  . I ducked.  He got a penalty.  The next time he was out  caught him behind his own net and hit hard and smeared him . I got a penalty but it was worth it.  I was late 30's and playing on one ruined knee that's all braced up and I made a promise to my wife that I would only play at 70% and would play non check  . Had two babies to support fixing cars in my garage the next day . They didn't allow the guy to play again.  I played for all the other teams unless they were playing my team  dam near every night of the week.   Great group of players  

[Playmakersedge 58]

Pretty much it's all covered here . I played three games of roller hockey ,I kept on tearing the wheels  and I remember there being less players on the rink and playing with a ball .   

The last ice hockey league I played had some talented players.  A friend of one of the other players on the other team was filling in ,good but nothing remarkable probably in his early twenties  .   We were in play and it was no check, I shoot from the far left hash marks and put it in and there's this guy in my path as I'm still in motion so I jump on the binders and I bump the guy. I mean if he was holding a pint of beer he wouldn't have spilled any . The next thing I know I got this guy winging his stick like a bat at my head  . I ducked.  He got a penalty.  The next time he was out  caught him behind his own net and hit hard and smeared him . I got a penalty but it was worth it.  I was late 30's and playing on one ruined knee that's all braced up and I made a promise to my wife that I would only play at 70% and would play non check  . Had two babies to support fixing cars in my garage the next day . They didn't allow the guy to play again.  I played for all the other teams unless they were playing my team  dam near every night of the week.   Great group of players