Total Hockey Files Bankruptcy

[IPv6Freely 2082]

16 hours ago, kmfdm86 said:

Good point. The service they provide is essentially aligned with sales. I have no idea if it's a common practice amongst hockey stores. So maybe the choice of words was a little harsh. 

 

It's just weird they were so engaged and helpful with the products and their pros and cons and when it came time to make their company some money they basically went "meh, buy it somewhere else".

To be clear, "buy it online" is very different from "buy it somewhere else", when you're talking about a company that does a lot of online sales. 

[kmfdm86 112]

2 hours ago, OptimusReim said:

To be clear, "buy it online" is very different from "buy it somewhere else", when you're talking about a company that does a lot of online sales. 

True. But to not even offer to order it or place the order just seems weird to me. They were totally disinterested in whether or not they got the money. It was a top of the line pair of jetspeeds too. So it's not like it was a small purchase. 

 

Like every instrument I've ever bought, they're chomping at the bit to earn that money for their company whether they have to custom order it or track you down a used one. Except for guitar center. Which I think also filed for bankruptcy a couple years ago? 

 

Anyway, I got some background on the Denver stores from another member here that kind of explains the sometimes present mentality at the stores in that area. So it makes more sense to me why they're like that now.

 

Either way, I do enjoy the stores and hope they stick around. 

[Axxion89 32]

12 hours ago, kmfdm86 said:

True. But to not even offer to order it or place the order just seems weird to me. They were totally disinterested in whether or not they got the money. It was a top of the line pair of jetspeeds too. So it's not like it was a small purchase. 

 

Like every instrument I've ever bought, they're chomping at the bit to earn that money for their company whether they have to custom order it or track you down a used one. Except for guitar center. Which I think also filed for bankruptcy a couple years ago? 

 

Anyway, I got some background on the Denver stores from another member here that kind of explains the sometimes present mentality at the stores in that area. So it makes more sense to me why they're like that now.

 

Either way, I do enjoy the stores and hope they stick around. 

 

They probably didn't order the skate for you because in 9/10 cases, the customer probably flakes on it & orders somewhere else & now they are stuck with a pair of special order skates & have to find someone else to buy them. If you order online, you get them sooner & if they don't fit, you return them to the store. Also, most Guitar Stores (unless things have changed, GC included) have their salespersons work on commission so of course they are going to fight for you to get something that day, apples & oranges.

[SirJW 207]

On 7/17/2016 at 4:57 AM, DarkStar50 said:

 

The smart LHS knows he can only sell you one pair of shoulder pads or shin pads every year or so. The smart LHS also knows that the Hockey Mom is the one that will buy a few Bauer or CCM t-shirts  or a hoody for Christmas for gifts. The smart LHS has just made full markup on apparel which is a lot better than that one pair of shoulder pads.

 

Just like the surf / skate / snow business. Their Local shop model blew up 25 plus years ago.

 

Nothing stays the same, everything changes....

[kovalchuk71 212]

 

On 7/15/2016 at 9:18 PM, OptimusReim said:

All one has to do is look at companies like Zappos or Amazon (Prime, specifically). Catering to the lazy is the path to success. Free quick shipping, free returns, etc. Whatever makes it easy for somebody to just buy online without having to wait and without fear of buying the wrong size.

 

I don't know how to necessarily apply this to the hockey world, though.

I don't understand how that caters to the "lazy"? Free quick shipping and free returns? As a consumer, you'd be stupid to pass that up. Especially if the price is great. Just don't be that guy that goes and tries it on in a B&M first. 

 

Everyone on here seems to act like they're morally perfect and have never purchased something online instead of in a local store, when you KNOW that it's false. Why would I purchase something locally when I can order it online for $20 cheaper AND get Free 2-day/Overnight shipping? $20 is 2 days worth of meals for me. We're all not swimming in money.

 

On 7/18/2016 at 9:10 AM, Axxion89 said:

They probably didn't order the skate for you because in 9/10 cases, the customer probably flakes on it & orders somewhere else & now they are stuck with a pair of special order skates & have to find someone else to buy them. If you order online, you get them sooner & if they don't fit, you return them to the store. Also, most Guitar Stores (unless things have changed, GC included) have their salespersons work on commission so of course they are going to fight for you to get something that day, apples & oranges.

 

That's why you take a full deposit or a majority deposit upon ordering. If they do not want to do that, then they can go elsewhere. That happened to my shop multiple times until we hit a breaking point. No one has a problem paying ahead of time anyways (at least at the store I work at)

[IPv6Freely 2082]

You know what I meant. Or maybe you didn't, which I guess is why you questioned it. 

 

I just meant they make it easier for people in every way.

[kovalchuk71 212]

1 hour ago, OptimusReim said:

You know what I meant. Or maybe you didn't, which I guess is why you questioned it. 

 

I just meant they make it easier for people in every way.

 

I didn't. I understand now, though.

[akravetz 29]

I will say that I like the TH stores simply because I go in there, and there are human beings to talk to. It's often younger kids in their 20s. They know I am a dad with two kids in hockey. They can see through the BS of the coaches and other dads telling us we need top of the line crap. They have always sized my kids well, gotten us the right gear for the right price and when it doesn't work out, they take it back. I like the company and I like the store. I bought once from another online place (not monkey) and it was horrible. I am strictly a TH guy now so I really hope it works out. 

Someone in the thread earlier said something about wanting to increase market share. I am also an avid whitewater kayaker and we saw this about 15 years ago. Kayaking was huge in the late 90s and early 00s. There were 20 different boat companies churning out boat after boat, sometimes with seven new models each year. Now, there are about four or five, doing one model a year. A lot of the buying up of smaller companies and consolidation. That, combined with the notion that you can only make so many different types of boats, killed the industry. It's still there but has reverted back to a niche sport. I hope hockey doesn't go that way. 

 

Andy in Peoria. 

[Kgbeast 195]

16 hours ago, akravetz said:

I will say that I like the TH stores simply because I go in there, and there are human beings to talk to. It's often younger kids in their 20s. They know I am a dad with two kids in hockey. They can see through the BS of the coaches and other dads telling us we need top of the line crap. They have always sized my kids well, gotten us the right gear for the right price and when it doesn't work out, they take it back. I like the company and I like the store. I bought once from another online place (not monkey) and it was horrible. I am strictly a TH guy now so I really hope it works out. 

Someone in the thread earlier said something about wanting to increase market share. I am also an avid whitewater kayaker and we saw this about 15 years ago. Kayaking was huge in the late 90s and early 00s. There were 20 different boat companies churning out boat after boat, sometimes with seven new models each year. Now, there are about four or five, doing one model a year. A lot of the buying up of smaller companies and consolidation. That, combined with the notion that you can only make so many different types of boats, killed the industry. It's still there but has reverted back to a niche sport. I hope hockey doesn't go that way. 

 

Andy in Peoria. 

Sadly, it loos to me that it has gone that way already. What happens in the Hockey industry today do makes no sense. It is pretty sad to see some hardworking dudes here who has been indoctrinated in spending more money on their gear to play in a beer leagues and pickup games that the NHLers spend on their. And I am not talking about the stars with endorsements who actually gets paid to use gear, I am talking about regular player #69 what's'his name NHL guys.

[chippa13 1844]

That was painful to read. I can't imagine what the unedited version looked like.

[asm74 0]

4 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

Sadly, it loos to me that it has gone that way already. What happens in the Hockey industry today do makes no sense. It is pretty sad to see some hardworking dudes here who has been indoctrinated in spending more money on their gear to play in a beer leagues and pickup games that the NHLers spend on their. And I am not talking about the stars with endorsements who actually gets paid to use gear, I am talking about regular player #69 what's'his name NHL guys.

as far as I know pros don't buy their equipment, it is organization's expenses and property. And in case of injures their organization pays medical expenses. For us, beer leaguers, it makes sense to buy a quality protection stuff, because one related visit to a doctor can cost more than all top of the line equipment.

[Stewie 721]

no one is forced to spend more on gear any more today than they were years ago. Do top of the line pads cost more? yes, but you dont need those to be Johnny beerleaguer #69 or whatever. Sure the top of the line sticks cost more than they did back when, but the 3rd and 4th in line are also lighter than sticks used to be, and you dont need the highest of end stuff to play beer league hockey.

 

That said, some people choose to get the high end stuff for whatever reason, be it comfort or the like. this is their own choice.  I myself get previous model closeouts for a good mix of the performance i want, and the price i am happy with, but getting a QR1 isnt going to put me any closer to the show than a QR4 will.

[Stewie 721]

1 hour ago, Kgbeast said:

Sadly, it loos to me that it has gone that way already. What happens in the Hockey industry today do makes no sense. It is pretty sad to see some hardworking dudes here who has been indoctrinated in spending more money on their gear to play in a beer leagues and pickup games that the NHLers spend on their. And I am not talking about the stars with endorsements who actually gets paid to use gear, I am talking about regular player #69 what's'his name NHL guys.

 

[Kgbeast 195]

I did not communicate correctly here. This thread is about TH going out of business... We are saying that the industry is on the road to kill itself, like the kayaking industry from my quote. Bauer and CCM, Easton, are putting out a product, retailers to buy an inventory, they sell some of it, then, mfg releases new model of the same old, couple of gimmicks statements.  No one want to buy the last year stuff and retailer is forced to get new inventory, and give away the old one.

The new guy buys new stuff and the old guy with the old stuff feels inadequate, so he too goes and gets new stuff and throw his couple of years old stuff in the garage under excuse that new gear is faster and lasts longer or protects better (which in case of protection gear is often true, but not enough to make difference of you going to the doctor or not). Now the third guy, does not want to buy latest greatest, because he knows that next year stuff will be... the new stuff (not necessarily better, most likely just different)... The second guy puts his couple of years old stuff on ebay, and a beginner guy (#4 in this example), gets it instead of getting new stuff from the retailer... and so it goes.

 

From above, the manufacturer does good. The players waste more money. The retailers are getting screwed because of large quantities of used gear, and pressure from the manufacturers to buy new inventory while they still on the inventory from a year ago, and from 2 and from 3 and from 5 which they have to put out for cheap enough that it competes with private sales on eBay and craigslist. This model is less sustainable than the one in which manufacturers are running lower volume small business that matches the hockey culture and release new products only when there is a real innovation in it (kind of like Graf does). And the stores are smaller, operating without fear of buying an inventory which looses it's value before their first sale. Supply and demand is a driver of the industry, but the demand has to drive the supply and not the other way around, when the supply drives the demand via clever marketing taktics and inflated statements... Someone canives and schemes = someone is getting screwed = not sustainable business. It causes the bubble to grow until it bursts. Graf is out of Americas, Mission is gone, Easton is next, When the whole thing colapses, a holding company will buy the pieces and turn it into a complete crap... then Graf will comeback once again to offer quality Hockey and Figure skating gear to North American marked and we will watch the history repeat itself.

 

... wow. And this what happens when you pick a hypothetical scenario and just run with it to the end. When I started writing this, I did not know the ending, now I do. This is my story and I am sticking to it.

 

 

 

[kovalchuk71 212]

1 hour ago, Stewie said:

no one is forced to spend more on gear any more today than they were years ago. Do top of the line pads cost more? yes, but you dont need those to be Johnny beerleaguer #69 or whatever. Sure the top of the line sticks cost more than they did back when, but the 3rd and 4th in line are also lighter than sticks used to be, and you dont need the highest of end stuff to play beer league hockey.

 

That said, some people choose to get the high end stuff for whatever reason, be it comfort or the like. this is their own choice.  I myself get previous model closeouts for a good mix of the performance i want, and the price i am happy with, but getting a QR1 isnt going to put me any closer to the show than a QR4 will.

Right, but the vast inventory of close out equipment that some of these big stores have at such low prices is what is killing the little guys. I'm not blaming YOU for that at all. It goes back to the manufacturers. 

[Stewie 721]

22 minutes ago, kovalchuk71 said:

Right, but the vast inventory of close out equipment that some of these big stores have at such low prices is what is killing the little guys. I'm not blaming YOU for that at all. It goes back to the manufacturers. 

Smaller stores are struggling, but this isnt anywhere near just a Hockey issue. It happens in every industry. I honestly dont even think its a manufacturers issue. People nowadays love to be surrounded by options and huge stores offer that. Totals issue in my opinion is that the retail space was too large for a niche industry such as hockey, and also the locations, at least here, aren't attached to rinks, so they miss out on the smaller accessory etc purchases. 

 

45 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

I did not communicate correctly here. This thread is about TH going out of business... We are saying that the industry is on the road to kill itself, like the kayaking industry from my quote. Bauer and CCM, Easton, are putting out a product, retailers to buy an inventory, they sell some of it, then, mfg releases new model of the same old, couple of gimmicks statements.  No one want to buy the last year stuff and retailer is forced to get new inventory, and give away the old one.

The new guy buys new stuff and the old guy with the old stuff feels inadequate, so he too goes and gets new stuff and throw his couple of years old stuff in the garage under excuse that new gear is faster and lasts longer or protects better (which in case of protection gear is often true, but not enough to make difference of you going to the doctor or not). Now the third guy, does not want to buy latest greatest, because he knows that next year stuff will be... the new stuff (not necessarily better, most likely just different)... The second guy puts his couple of years old stuff on ebay, and a beginner guy (#4 in this example), gets it instead of getting new stuff from the retailer... and so it goes.

 

From above, the manufacturer does good. The players waste more money. The retailers are getting screwed because of large quantities of used gear, and pressure from the manufacturers to buy new inventory while they still on the inventory from a year ago, and from 2 and from 3 and from 5 which they have to put out for cheap enough that it competes with private sales on eBay and craigslist. This model is less sustainable than the one in which manufacturers are running lower volume small business that matches the hockey culture and release new products only when there is a real innovation in it (kind of like Graf does). And the stores are smaller, operating without fear of buying an inventory which looses it's value before their first sale. Supply and demand is a driver of the industry, but the demand has to drive the supply and not the other way around, when the supply drives the demand via clever marketing taktics and inflated statements... Someone canives and schemes = someone is getting screwed = not sustainable business. It causes the bubble to grow until it bursts. Graf is out of Americas, Mission is gone, Easton is next, When the whole thing colapses, a holding company will buy the pieces and turn it into a complete crap... then Graf will comeback once again to offer quality Hockey and Figure skating gear to North American marked and we will watch the history repeat itself.

 

... wow. And this what happens when you pick a hypothetical scenario and just run with it to the end. When I started writing this, I did not know the ending, now I do. This is my story and I am sticking to it.

 

 

 

the consumer is just as much, if not more, to blame as the manufacturers. in every industry, people want and crave the newest thing. Who is excited over the 2014 model year cars anymore? Manufacturers are almost forced to put out new product, or have people get bored with the old, so they come out with stick updates every few years to keep consumers happy. EVERY industry does this. do you think they need new running shoe updates annually (or even more frequent), how much has the technology for jackets changed in a year. for every person on this board that says "such and such hasnt changed a thing in 3 generations except the paint" there is a sea of consumers out there prodding and craving the newest thing.

[kovalchuk71 212]

3 minutes ago, Stewie said:

Smaller stores are struggling, but this isnt anywhere near just a Hockey issue. It happens in every industry. I honestly dont even think its a manufacturers issue. People nowadays love to be surrounded by options and huge stores offer that. Totals issue in my opinion is that the retail space was too large for a niche industry such as hockey, and also the locations, at least here, aren't attached to rinks, so they miss out on the smaller accessory etc purchases. 

 

the consumer is just as much, if not more, to blame as the manufacturers. in every industry, people want and crave the newest thing. Who is excited over the 2014 model year cars anymore? Manufacturers are almost forced to put out new product, or have people get bored with the old, so they come out with stick updates every few years to keep consumers happy. EVERY industry does this. do you think they need new running shoe updates annually (or even more frequent), how much has the technology for jackets changed in a year. for every person on this board that says "such and such hasnt changed a thing in 3 generations except the paint" there is a sea of consumers out there prodding and craving the newest thing.

While I agree (to an extent), a major problem is the manufacturer also over producing product, and then selling it to select retailers for pennies on the dollar once the new line of equipment is released. 

 

But yes, people always want "new and shiny", and companies thrive off of that. 

[Kgbeast 195]

It is different with cars though. You go to a dealer and if they do not have what you want on the lot, they locate one from another dealer and bring over to you. I guess more money to share... not so much with skates and sticks. If it is a lifestyle thing like the people who collect Jordans... then that is that. It is not about improving game or one's performance and it should be presented that way.

[Stewie 721]

4 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

It is different with cars though. You go to a dealer and if they do not have what you want on the lot, they locate one from another dealer and bring over to you. I guess more money to share... not so much with skates and sticks. If it is a lifestyle thing like the people who collect Jordans... then that is that. It is not about improving game or one's performance and it should be presented that way.

disagree fully. if i ever needed something they didnt have in stock at total, or peranis etc, they will pull it in for me from another location. It is not very much different from cars. each model year brings incremental differences for the most part, but cars get you from point a to point b the same. They could put out a minor body tweak or a mpg or two on a model and people will still clamor for the newest one over the year old model, because the newest one is always marketed as "new and improved performace". who would buy "similar but costlier". thatd be a marketing team out of a job.

 

1 hour ago, kovalchuk71 said:

While I agree (to an extent), a major problem is the manufacturer also over producing product, and then selling it to select retailers for pennies on the dollar once the new line of equipment is released. 

 

But yes, people always want "new and shiny", and companies thrive off of that. 

I dont fully disagree with you, and i guess i dont know the inner workings of shop life as much as people who work in them, however i just thought it was inappropriate for some people to blame the industry for everything because they are the big bad giants and should be villified, when consumer behavior is just as much, if not more to blame. I am sure Bauer etc would love to just pump out the same product year after year if they could, would spend a lot less on RD and Marketing.

[Kgbeast 195]

Comparing cars to skates is Apple and oranges. When I said the car dealer brought a car to me from other dealer, it was not another location, it was another dealer, a competitor. If you go to Pure Hockey store, will they get you a pair from Total Hockey few miles away? There just not enough money in doing that. If you want to compare skates to something, compare them to tennis shoes. The only fault of end user is being gullible. No one would have ask for new model of skates if it was not put on the shelf and glorified in an advert. Like Graf, had not released anything new until they came up with something that is actually is new. Their x35 and xx35 models have been around since 4 years ago and still being sold in Europe. I know that Hockey manufacturers want to grow just as fast as cell phone manufacturers. I also want to sit on my ass and collect 6 figures a year for trolling on this forum... somethings are just not in the cards.

[Stewie 721]

3 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

Comparing cars to skates is Apple and oranges. When I said the car dealer brought a car to me from other dealer, it was not another location, it was another dealer, a competitor. If you go to Pure Hockey store, will they get you a pair from Total Hockey few miles away? There just not enough money in doing that. If you want to compare skates to something, compare them to tennis shoes. The only fault of end user is being gullible. No one would have ask for new model of skates if it was not put on the shelf and glorified in an advert. Like Graf, had not released anything new until they came up with something that is actually is new. Their x35 and xx35 models have been around since 4 years ago and still being sold in Europe. I know that Hockey manufacturers want to grow just as fast as cell phone manufacturers. I also want to sit on my ass and collect 6 figures a year for trolling on this forum... somethings are just not in the cards.

every product is the same way is my point. Everything is updated frequently because consumers have to see the newest product or they wont be happy. Consumers want new sticks released every few years because the newest greatest thing IS the most exciting. This is in cars, if ford kept re-releasing the same fusion year in and year out, people would stop buying them, no matter how good or reliable they are. running shoes are similar (released more frequently than youd think).  Marketing teams have to market products as being improved or no one would buy them, they would just look at a competitors skate thats the newest thing on the market. in the end, you play to your market, and consumers drive the need for new and "improved" products, they (with some exceptions) dont want to just buy the same old product year in and year out. Thanks for bringing up Graf. they are an excellent example of what happens when consumers dont see the newest best thing, they stop buying the products.

[Kgbeast 195]

So you are saying that consumers demand new releases from the manufacturer. Which means that the consumer gets paid and thinks "let me go buy something". So he goes to the store, cash in hand, fInds that there is nothing new, but just the stuff he already bought last year or two ago which is still in good working order, then he storms out of the store pissed, goes home and writes hate mail to the manufacturer, telling that they need to make new stuff, so he can buy it. Is that how it works in a very rough estimation?

[Stewie 721]

10 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

So you are saying that consumers demand new releases from the manufacturer. Which means that the consumer gets paid and thinks "let me go buy something". So he goes to the store, cash in hand, fInds that there is nothing new, but just the stuff he already bought last year or two ago which is still in good working order, then he storms out of the store pissed, goes home and writes hate mail to the manufacturer, telling that they need to make new stuff, so he can buy it. Is that how it works in a very rough estimation?

I am saying the consumer is not going to the store unless there is something new and shiny for him to check out. Why is he going to the store if he already has stuff in good working order? because he desires something new. If the consumer goes and finds the same old stuff, they arent buying things, and the company doesnt make sales, and then goes under. New products bring customers to the store, because customers desire new products.

 

Like i said, if Bauer could keep selling the same old thing year in and year out, they would.

[Neo5370 132]

1 hour ago, Stewie said:

Like i said, if Bauer could keep selling the same old thing year in and year out, they would.

 

They can and they do.

[Stewie 721]

Just now, Neo5370 said:

 

They can and they do.

there are still nuances that change and of course the looks etc. You and I know this is likely not significant, but to the market and the company as a whole, its necessary for them to create buzz and sell products. When i said that, i mean that Bauer cannot continue to put out the same old Bauer Supreme 4000 they used to and expect to compete with other companies in terms of sales etc. Same thing goes with 1x sticks and special editions etc, if bauer just keeps selling the same 1x, graphics package and all, itll eventuallly really tire out and more people will go with the shiny new competitor stick. Put a skate that hasnt changed in many years and a newer skate in front of most people, they are going to pick the newer looking skate, even outside of what its marketed, because thats what consumers do by and large.

Stale products sit on shelves.