sharpening affect on acceleration (roh vs profile)

[Toby 2]

As the title says I'm wondering how much affect sharpening has on acceleration.

I'm currently skating on factory profiled step blacksteel (10' radius), runner size 254. I weigh around 176lbs and get my skates sharpened at 1-1/8".

This sharpening is fine for top speed and cornering, however I do not feel I am getting as much return from each stride as possible when accelerating. This could be due to the fact I have previously skated on longer runners, or maybe I'm just getting old.

As much as I'd like to switch to a longer runner, we can count this out, focusing only on changes made to the steel.

Now back to the question in the title. A simple change I could make would be switching to a deeper hollow, but how much would the extra bite to aid acceleration compare with the benefits of the shallower hollow.

Option number 2 would be profiling, however being in the UK this is very rare to non existant (if anyone could point me in the right direction that would be helpful). I'm assuming this would make a huge difference and is something I'd definitely like to look into.

[Vet88 673]

I'm not saying this is your issue but when players ask me this the first thing I look at is technique. One of the most common bad habits I see is players accelerating using their inside edges too much ie standing more on the inside of the boot instead of keeping their foot over the top of the blade. A simple test is to lace up to the 4th eyelet (leave the top 3 undone) and then push a goal across the rink. If your foot isn't twisting in the boot and leaning inwards as you accelerate then your technique is solid. Now try standing starts. If this is all good now you could look at profiling to get a shape that suits your stride and style. 1 1/8" is pretty slippery, maybe drop to 1" and see how that feels, you will get a little more bite on the inside edge but the trade off is glide speed.

[All Flash 49]

Simple change to fbv by the sounds of it.

[flip12 699]

6 hours ago, Vet88 said:

I'm not saying this is your issue but when players ask me this the first thing I look at is technique. One of the most common bad habits I see is players accelerating using their inside edges too much ie standing more on the inside of the boot instead of keeping their foot over the top of the blade. A simple test is to lace up to the 4th eyelet (leave the top 3 undone) and then push a goal across the rink. If your foot isn't twisting in the boot and leaning inwards as you accelerate then your technique is solid. Now try standing starts. If this is all good now you could look at profiling to get a shape that suits your stride and style. 1 1/8" is pretty slippery, maybe drop to 1" and see how that feels, you will get a little more bite on the inside edge but the trade off is glide speed.

It's a little tough to picture what you mean. Can find some good and bad examples in pictures or video?

[Vet88 673]

4 hours ago, flip12 said:

It's a little tough to picture what you mean. Can find some good and bad examples in pictures or video?

An extreme example of poor technique. As the foot moves out from the center of the body and all the way to the toe kick, it folds inwards. Instead of the energy of the leg drive pushing down thru the center of the foot and blade, it is now getting directed into the inside side of the boot. The red lines should be straight, not kinked as they are.

 

[flip12 699]

I'm not sure I get the distinction between that and proper ankle rotation exhibited by many of the best of the elite skaters...Orr, Fedorov, Karlsson, McDavid, Niedermayer, Selanne, Bure, Gartner all spring to mind.

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

Key to acceleration...  http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/best-glutes-exercises

 

[stick9 881]

First step (and the obvious one) would be a deeper hollow. Acceleration is all about those first few steps. Not having the proper bite can inhibit the ability to transfer power.

Think of a car off the line...

[asgoodasdead 74]

7 minutes ago, stick9 said:

First step (and the obvious one) would be a deeper hollow. Acceleration is all about those first few steps. Not having the proper bite can inhibit the ability to transfer power.

Think of a car off the line...

need sticky tires.

 

I weigh 170 and I run 5/8". did 1/2" forever til recently 

[syinx 139]

Edge control and proper technique come first.  I'm 145 and 5' 8", running a 3/4 ROH, Black Steel and Quad 1 Profile.  I can pick up my top speed fairly quickly, but acceleration felt its best when I was trying out a 15-Foot Radius profile.

Sure, more bite technically improves grip for acceleration, but it'll also cut into the ice harder and work against your speed.

[Vet88 673]

15 hours ago, flip12 said:

I'm not sure I get the distinction between that and proper ankle rotation exhibited by many of the best of the elite skaters...Orr, Fedorov, Karlsson, McDavid, Niedermayer, Selanne, Bure, Gartner all spring to mind.

The distinction is between an ankle roll controlled by the stabilising muscles of the foot and an ankle roll that, if it wern't for the side of the boot, would collapse on the ice. There is a vid breaking down the difference between Eichel and McDavid, in it you see McDavid is consistently driving straight thru the blade as he strides with very little ankle roll. When his ankle does roll, its is only by a few degrees thru the middle of the stride and then it recovers to a neutral angle as he moves into the next phase (toe kick, prop of the foot, etc).  

One thing I forgot to mention is that you need to load up the foot when you test this, just normal skating and accelerating are often not enough to show up any deficiencies. This is because people who have spent a lot of time on skates build up muscles that help them support the foot to the level they are currently skating at. It's not until you load the foot up with no ankle support from the boot that the error in technique can be shown clearly. Hence pushing the goal and if that is too easy, push the goal with someone behind the goal also resisting.  A lot of elite skaters include training with no laces, there is a reason for this. A colleague of mine was in Prague a while ago for the world ice skating figure comps, training at the next door rinks were the Czech and Finland ice hockey national teams. To start the morning practice every skater on the ice (including coaches etc) spent the first 90 minutes on ice with no laces, full drills and work outs. You cannot hide technical issues when you skate with no laces.

[flip12 699]

7 hours ago, Vet88 said:

The distinction is between an ankle roll controlled by the stabilising muscles of the foot and an ankle roll that, if it wern't for the side of the boot, would collapse on the ice. There is a vid breaking down the difference between Eichel and McDavid, in it you see McDavid is consistently driving straight thru the blade as he strides with very little ankle roll. When his ankle does roll, its is only by a few degrees thru the middle of the stride and then it recovers to a neutral angle as he moves into the next phase (toe kick, prop of the foot, etc).  

One thing I forgot to mention is that you need to load up the foot when you test this, just normal skating and accelerating are often not enough to show up any deficiencies. This is because people who have spent a lot of time on skates build up muscles that help them support the foot to the level they are currently skating at. It's not until you load the foot up with no ankle support from the boot that the error in technique can be shown clearly. Hence pushing the goal and if that is too easy, push the goal with someone behind the goal also resisting.  A lot of elite skaters include training with no laces, there is a reason for this. A colleague of mine was in Prague a while ago for the world ice skating figure comps, training at the next door rinks were the Czech and Finland ice hockey national teams. To start the morning practice every skater on the ice (including coaches etc) spent the first 90 minutes on ice with no laces, full drills and work outs. You cannot hide technical issues when you skate with no laces.

Amazing description. I was just wondering if you were in the camp of "ankle roll is bad" which I've encountered. I was thinking you meant just what you described above but just wanted to be sure. I think I've seen the video you're describing, the one featuring Robby Glantz's analysis of their strides?

 

I've never tried skating with no laces. I'll try to remember it next time I can get on the ice. As well as displaying issues with technique, I imagine it could be useful for highlighting fit issues too.

[Vet88 673]

Yes, that is the vid.

Definitely not in the no ankle roll camp, I liken that to putting your leg in a full cast and trying to skate. You have to be able to flex and roll in the skating motion, it is the fastest way to transfer from one edge to the other or shift balance in preparation for a move or generate extra power. Do try the no laces, if not comfortable with no laces then start 2 or 3 down, I've settled on 4 down as I find it helps to hold the boot better on the front of the foot, if I had customs I would skate lace free (which, as you pointed out, highlights a fit issue for me in what I have always thought were good fitting skates).

[stick9 881]

I won't argue the merits of proper technique, but it really doesn't answer the OP's question. 

Getting back on point. Yes, coming from a 1-1/8 ROH to something deeper will likely help your acceleration. Keep in mind, coming from such a shallow hollow, anything below 3/4 will likely feel way too radical. 

No Icing Sports does mail order sharpenings and I believe profiles as well. A lot of members use them. The owner is a member here. Look them up.