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kklinder

Graf G7/707

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Anybody have experience with the Graf G7 and/or 707 to share?

I'm looking at both since I like the idea of a more flexible ankle. Coming off of an old school skate with more flex (Daoust 501), I'm not a fan of the ski boot feel. The Grafs seem like a perfect fit - greater stability than my old skates, but still some flex. I'm also looking at the 703.

Anyway, if you have any thoughts about either of these skates, please share. If you like or dislike the skates, I'd be curious about what other skates you've liked/disliked.

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Ive skated in numerous pairs of Grafs, currently Im in a pair of custom 707s. While I was still growing and before a broken leg I had used 704s, 735s, and 703s. The fit of the 707 and 703s are pretty different. You should check out Graf Canadas website for tech specs, any specifics feel free to drop me a PM

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Yeah, I've exhausted the site pretty well, so I'm looking for some real-world advice. Also, the site doesn't talk about the 707s. I'm told that the G7s has a heel smaller heel than the G7s.

Other than fit, how do the 707s skate relative to the others?

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I have a custom pair of 707's, came form a stock pair of 707's prior to that. My only issue with the stock 707 was the larger heel, my heel moved around way to much and gave me bauer bumps. I absolutely love the skate. I can get a complete stride and complete extension on every push off.

If you are coming from older models that give you more ankle movement, this would definitaly work.

Unfortunately, the 707 is no longer in production, unless you get a custom skate. I know there is a table somewhere with regards to all of the graf models and their fit. I did a search but couldn't come up with it. Sorry.

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The Ultra G70 is a nice skate..Stiff, but nothing like the Vapors or Supremes and has a narrower heel than the G7 or the old G9

The 707 has been reincarnated as the Graf G7. The G70 is along the lines of the 709.

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Isn't it true that the Graf G series and seven series with the same last number are designed with the same fit? ie the 707 and the G7 are designed for the same fit? With that in mind (if it's true) would the 727 line up with the 707 and the G7 in terms of fit, or is it a seperate fit. I love the fit of my 727's but was thinking of upgrading to 707s with a composite outsole, and I would like a stiffer pair of skates that my 727s.

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Isn't it true that the Graf G series and seven series with the same last number are designed with the same fit? ie the 707 and the G7 are designed for the same fit? With that in mind (if it's true) would the 727 line up with the 707 and the G7 in terms of fit, or is it a seperate fit. I love the fit of my 727's but was thinking of upgrading to 707s with a composite outsole, and I would like a stiffer pair of skates that my 727s.

yes, i believe so. I have a pair of G3's and they fit like 703's. also to the topic starter. my 703's fit like a GLOVE and i have a narrow heel, flat feet and narrow to regular forefoot. my skates are narrows also though.

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Sorry if this is more information than you wanted, but I figured better more than less.

The 707 is definitely a different feel from most of todays skates. If you have grown upon stiff skates it is going to take patience and commitment to adjust.

If you have skated on older broken in leather skates, then you will recognize the feel. Like any skate which features are positive and which are not is largely up to each player's unique combination of skills, desires and attributes.

Here is my opinion:

I like the 707 because it gives me tremendous flexibility and agility advantage in small areas. Its hard to describe, but they are for players who want or need to to be more technically sound skaters.

With stiffer boots, stopping on a dime and changing direction requires me to recruit other major parts of my body to move like hips and shoulders in order to change direction and maintain balance. My ankles feel like they are fused to my feet and legs so they are all working as one unit. I can't start changing direction before my hips and upper body start tipping off my intended movement. That can get a small skater like me killed along the boards.

With the 360* ankle flexion in the 707, I feel like I can get my blades positioned exactly like I need them BEFORE I move anything else. For a smaller player, this is a godsend. It helps with agility and deceptiveness and also helps with survival. My hips and shoulders do not give away a sharp change in direction.

So that's the agility aspect. Now for speed.

I know that stiff boots have benefits that help players transmit power to the ice that can translate to more speed to the same stride and that's cool, but looser boots have some benefits that can help you gain speed from a longer, more efficient stride. However, this doesn't happen out of the box. You have to work hard on technique and believe in it.

So how can the looser ankled boot like the 707 increase straight ahead speed? Its complicated, but watch an old time hockey player like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey or even a speedskater on Youtube for the general idea. They max out stride length by getting 100% of their center of gravity over their push foot. Eyes knees and toes are completely aligned. Then ankle flexibility comes into play.

They bring their glide foot all the way over to where both skate boots are almost touching and they flex the ankle of their glide foot inward to start the glide on their outside edge toe pointed out about 20 degrees. This helps them extend their glide immenseley because

A) the slight outward tilt of the glide foot will give them 5-10 more feet before their center of gravity is now over that foot. and

B) starting on the outside edge and rolling to the top of the blade maxes out the glide.

C) Their glide foot planted about 1 foot closer to their push foot than the average skater, giving them about 20-30% more time in contact with the ice where their push foot is translating power from the ice into forward glide on their glide foot. All this takes a lot of commitment to technique, practice.....and ankle flexibility. Thats why speedskaters don't have any ankles on their boots at all. They are all about speed through technique.

D) By bringing their feet almost together and flexing the glide ankle outward, great skaters grab some completely free energy simply by letting their body weight fall into the stride BEFORE they even push. This is called "drop in" and its hugely effective in terms of not wasting energy. You wait until your body weight is exactly in line with the direction of your leg drive and....wham! power power power. Zero energy is wasted pushing your body weight 50% correct and 50% straight up into the air. 100% of your leg drive is being used with correct alignment and maximum stride length.

Sorry for the disertation, but knowing what truly creates skating speed and agility takes a bit longer than the marketing in a magazine ad.

Everyone is different and what works for me won't work for everyone. I do love my comfortable stiffy stiff Eastons for rollerblading and coaching, but if I want to keep up with the 20 somethings and contribute in a real game, I need the flexibility the 707's because of the potential benefits you can get purely from technique.

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Sorry if this is more information than you wanted, but I figured better more than less.

The 707 is definitely a different feel from most of todays skates. If you have grown upon stiff skates it is going to take patience and commitment to adjust.

If you have skated on older broken in leather skates, then you will recognize the feel. Like any skate which features are positive and which are not is largely up to each player's unique combination of skills, desires and attributes.

Here is my opinion:

I like the 707 because it gives me tremendous flexibility and agility advantage in small areas. Its hard to describe, but they are for players who want or need to to be more technically sound skaters.

With stiffer boots, stopping on a dime and changing direction requires me to recruit other major parts of my body to move like hips and shoulders in order to change direction and maintain balance. My ankles feel like they are fused to my feet and legs so they are all working as one unit. I can't start changing direction before my hips and upper body start tipping off my intended movement. That can get a small skater like me killed along the boards.

With the 360* ankle flexion in the 707, I feel like I can get my blades positioned exactly like I need them BEFORE I move anything else. For a smaller player, this is a godsend. It helps with agility and deceptiveness and also helps with survival. My hips and shoulders do not give away a sharp change in direction.

So that's the agility aspect. Now for speed.

I know that stiff boots have benefits that help players transmit power to the ice that can translate to more speed to the same stride and that's cool, but looser boots have some benefits that can help you gain speed from a longer, more efficient stride. However, this doesn't happen out of the box. You have to work hard on technique and believe in it.

So how can the looser ankled boot like the 707 increase straight ahead speed? Its complicated, but watch an old time hockey player like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey or even a speedskater on Youtube for the general idea. They max out stride length by getting 100% of their center of gravity over their push foot. Eyes knees and toes are completely aligned. Then ankle flexibility comes into play.

They bring their glide foot all the way over to where both skate boots are almost touching and they flex the ankle of their glide foot inward to start the glide on their outside edge toe pointed out about 20 degrees. This helps them extend their glide immenseley because

A) the slight outward tilt of the glide foot will give them 5-10 more feet before their center of gravity is now over that foot. and

B) starting on the outside edge and rolling to the top of the blade maxes out the glide.

C) Their glide foot planted about 1 foot closer to their push foot than the average skater, giving them about 20-30% more time in contact with the ice where their push foot is translating power from the ice into forward glide on their glide foot. All this takes a lot of commitment to technique, practice.....and ankle flexibility. Thats why speedskaters don't have any ankles on their boots at all. They are all about speed through technique.

D) By bringing their feet almost together and flexing the glide ankle outward, great skaters grab some completely free energy simply by letting their body weight fall into the stride BEFORE they even push. This is called "drop in" and its hugely effective in terms of not wasting energy. You wait until your body weight is exactly in line with the direction of your leg drive and....wham! power power power. Zero energy is wasted pushing your body weight 50% correct and 50% straight up into the air. 100% of your leg drive is being used with correct alignment and maximum stride length.

Sorry for the disertation, but knowing what truly creates skating speed and agility takes a bit longer than the marketing in a magazine ad.

Everyone is different and what works for me won't work for everyone. I do love my comfortable stiffy stiff Eastons for rollerblading and coaching, but if I want to keep up with the 20 somethings and contribute in a real game, I need the flexibility the 707's because of the potential benefits you can get purely from technique.

Nice post.

You just described how Pavel Bure skates - begin on outside edge and push out.

I'll note that he taped his ankles when he had Graf skates because they were (I assume) too soft (but this was early 90's Graf soft). In his later years, he used stiff Vapors. BUT, this is because he generated so much power that he needed the extra support. That kind of support isn't needed for about 99.99999% of hockey players IMO.

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Nice post.

You just described how Pavel Bure skates - begin on outside edge and push out.

I'll note that he taped his ankles when he had Graf skates because they were (I assume) too soft (but this was early 90's Graf soft). In his later years, he used stiff Vapors. BUT, this is because he generated so much power that he needed the extra support. That kind of support isn't needed for about 99.99999% of hockey players IMO.

Thanks,

Pavel Bure is an awesome skater to watch just to understand power skating.

Sometimes when I'd see him start after a puck way behind another player it looked as though the guy he was chasing was caught in a rip tide because Bure gained so much ground in those first few strides. He would absolutely hammer into the ice with every stride.

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Nice post.

You just described how Pavel Bure skates - begin on outside edge and push out.

I'll note that he taped his ankles when he had Graf skates because they were (I assume) too soft (but this was early 90's Graf soft). In his later years, he used stiff Vapors. BUT, this is because he generated so much power that he needed the extra support. That kind of support isn't needed for about 99.99999% of hockey players IMO.

Thanks,

Pavel Bure is an awesome skater to watch just to understand power skating.

Sometimes when I'd see him start after a puck way behind another player it looked as though the guy he was chasing was caught in a rip tide because Bure gained so much ground in those first few strides. He would absolutely hammer into the ice with every stride.

Have you tried the G7 skates? Are they too stiff for you?

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Nice post.

You just described how Pavel Bure skates - begin on outside edge and push out.

I'll note that he taped his ankles when he had Graf skates because they were (I assume) too soft (but this was early 90's Graf soft). In his later years, he used stiff Vapors. BUT, this is because he generated so much power that he needed the extra support. That kind of support isn't needed for about 99.99999% of hockey players IMO.

Thanks,

Pavel Bure is an awesome skater to watch just to understand power skating.

Sometimes when I'd see him start after a puck way behind another player it looked as though the guy he was chasing was caught in a rip tide because Bure gained so much ground in those first few strides. He would absolutely hammer into the ice with every stride.

Here is pic of Bure with taped up ankles in Graf skates. I wish I could get a hold of a wood Tackla stick!!!

http://visualrian.com/images/item/14667

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Sorry if this is more information than you wanted, but I figured better more than less.

The 707 is definitely a different feel from most of todays skates. If you have grown upon stiff skates it is going to take patience and commitment to adjust.

If you have skated on older broken in leather skates, then you will recognize the feel. Like any skate which features are positive and which are not is largely up to each player's unique combination of skills, desires and attributes.

Here is my opinion:

I like the 707 because it gives me tremendous flexibility and agility advantage in small areas. Its hard to describe, but they are for players who want or need to to be more technically sound skaters.

With stiffer boots, stopping on a dime and changing direction requires me to recruit other major parts of my body to move like hips and shoulders in order to change direction and maintain balance. My ankles feel like they are fused to my feet and legs so they are all working as one unit. I can't start changing direction before my hips and upper body start tipping off my intended movement. That can get a small skater like me killed along the boards.

With the 360* ankle flexion in the 707, I feel like I can get my blades positioned exactly like I need them BEFORE I move anything else. For a smaller player, this is a godsend. It helps with agility and deceptiveness and also helps with survival. My hips and shoulders do not give away a sharp change in direction.

So that's the agility aspect. Now for speed.

I know that stiff boots have benefits that help players transmit power to the ice that can translate to more speed to the same stride and that's cool, but looser boots have some benefits that can help you gain speed from a longer, more efficient stride. However, this doesn't happen out of the box. You have to work hard on technique and believe in it.

So how can the looser ankled boot like the 707 increase straight ahead speed? Its complicated, but watch an old time hockey player like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey or even a speedskater on Youtube for the general idea. They max out stride length by getting 100% of their center of gravity over their push foot. Eyes knees and toes are completely aligned. Then ankle flexibility comes into play.

They bring their glide foot all the way over to where both skate boots are almost touching and they flex the ankle of their glide foot inward to start the glide on their outside edge toe pointed out about 20 degrees. This helps them extend their glide immenseley because

A) the slight outward tilt of the glide foot will give them 5-10 more feet before their center of gravity is now over that foot. and

B) starting on the outside edge and rolling to the top of the blade maxes out the glide.

C) Their glide foot planted about 1 foot closer to their push foot than the average skater, giving them about 20-30% more time in contact with the ice where their push foot is translating power from the ice into forward glide on their glide foot. All this takes a lot of commitment to technique, practice.....and ankle flexibility. Thats why speedskaters don't have any ankles on their boots at all. They are all about speed through technique.

D) By bringing their feet almost together and flexing the glide ankle outward, great skaters grab some completely free energy simply by letting their body weight fall into the stride BEFORE they even push. This is called "drop in" and its hugely effective in terms of not wasting energy. You wait until your body weight is exactly in line with the direction of your leg drive and....wham! power power power. Zero energy is wasted pushing your body weight 50% correct and 50% straight up into the air. 100% of your leg drive is being used with correct alignment and maximum stride length.

Sorry for the disertation, but knowing what truly creates skating speed and agility takes a bit longer than the marketing in a magazine ad.

Everyone is different and what works for me won't work for everyone. I do love my comfortable stiffy stiff Eastons for rollerblading and coaching, but if I want to keep up with the 20 somethings and contribute in a real game, I need the flexibility the 707's because of the potential benefits you can get purely from technique.

Nice post.

You just described how Pavel Bure skates - begin on outside edge and push out.

I'll note that he taped his ankles when he had Graf skates because they were (I assume) too soft (but this was early 90's Graf soft). In his later years, he used stiff Vapors. BUT, this is because he generated so much power that he needed the extra support. That kind of support isn't needed for about 99.99999% of hockey players IMO.

That's exactly what I saw a vid of, once. Thanks for the deeper dissertation! :)

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So how can the looser ankled boot like the 707 increase straight ahead speed? Its complicated, but watch an old time hockey player like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey or even a speedskater on Youtube for the general idea. They max out stride length by getting 100% of their center of gravity over their push foot. Eyes knees and toes are completely aligned. Then ankle flexibility comes into play.

Hiptser - this is the classic, and seemingly lost art, of power skating.

I was taught by Laura Stamm and this model was what was drilled into us. My favorite skate was the 501 Daoust, still have them in the garage.

I now have been in the G7 for 2 months or so and it is coming back. I several pairs of skates but have always felt "out of it" with the new super stiff skates until I made the move to the G7.

I would have bought the 707 but I couldn't find any in my size left.

Personally I feel that the skates today are SO stiff that it is causing many of the injuries we see today.

I'm not sure how far back to my former skating ability I will ever get to but I feel like I am adding back allot every week.

I'm skating the way I know how to skate for the first time on a LONG time.

Not sure if that totally adds up but its pretty cool.

The only ding I have on my Graf's is that the pitch is a bit too far forward for my tastes and I am making minor adjustments to that as time goes on.

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Hipster,

Great post on power skating..... I'll just add a story from about 15 years ago when I was a coach for a local HS team. Over Christmas break we had a 2 hour practice slot that was open so I ran a voluntary power skating clinic open to any player rostered on the Fresman, JV, or Varsity team. One young man ~14 years old~ who had been playing hockey since he was about 5 opted to join us. Now, I was really pleased to see this as I saw some potential in him, but thought he was lazy (good position, but no hustle or drive to win the race to loose pucks) and needed to have a fire lit up underneath his a$$... Well, I go into a basic one leg push and return with a good deep knee bend on the support leag. You know the drill, the quad killer..... ;) I would up appologizing to this kid for riding him so hard during practices... you see, he was far from lazy. NO ONE ever taught him how to skate in the 8 years or so he was in organized hockey. HE COULD NOT PLANT THAT EDGE AND PUSH! HE WOULD TRY TO PUSH AND HIS EDGE CAUGHT A BIT AT THE TOE AND TURNED SO THAT THE BLADE SLID STRAGHT BACK ON THE TOE. THE ONLY WAY HE WAS GOING ANYWHERE WITH THAT STRIDE WAS IF I GROUND A TOE PICK INTO HIS BLADE. I worked with him that day and did a bunch of remedial power skating lessons through the rest of the season and got him up to speed. I was appalled that no one caught this! I spoke to his parents and they confirmed what I thought, that he received hand me down skates when he was 4 and went out with his brothers. He learned to "skate" on his own so no one ever thought to teach him how to do it correctly.

Now that my daughter is 7 and wanting to play I have her enrolled in a learn to play hockey program that teaches the basic skills before we take the plunge. They have asked me to come out and assist them and I can tell you that half of the beginner level kids have never been taught to skate..... gotta ask about that as I was under the impression that they were supposed to have passed the ISIA proficiency tests up through the Delta level before being accepted into the LTPH program. ISIA program is not power skating, but basic forwards, backwards, stops forwards and backwards (hockey, T, snow plow), as well as bacic forwards and backwards cross unders. We have kids running into the boards to stop! :huh: I really have to fight the urge to take over and turn it into a power skating clinic..... as it is, we do spend about 25% of the time working on improving their skating ability.

On the 707's... got a pair of customs 4 years ago. The boot is still in pretty good shape, but the ankle hinge got to loose after about 300 or so games. I'm thinking about getting some rebuild magic done on them by the guy that used to stitch Coffey's skates while he was here in Pittsburgh. Hope he's still in the business.....

OldNslow.... Lemme check the stash of dusty old sticks.... I may have one or two unused\lightly used righty Takla sticks that have a glass lam shaft similar to the old KOHO ProFiber just a bit more flexible....

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So how can the looser ankled boot like the 707 increase straight ahead speed? Its complicated, but watch an old time hockey player like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey or even a speedskater on Youtube for the general idea. They max out stride length by getting 100% of their center of gravity over their push foot. Eyes knees and toes are completely aligned. Then ankle flexibility comes into play.

Hiptser - this is the classic, and seemingly lost art, of power skating.

I was taught by Laura Stamm and this model was what was drilled into us. My favorite skate was the 501 Daoust, still have them in the garage.

I now have been in the G7 for 2 months or so and it is coming back. I several pairs of skates but have always felt "out of it" with the new super stiff skates until I made the move to the G7.

I would have bought the 707 but I couldn't find any in my size left.

Personally I feel that the skates today are SO stiff that it is causing many of the injuries we see today.

I'm not sure how far back to my former skating ability I will ever get to but I feel like I am adding back allot every week.

I'm skating the way I know how to skate for the first time on a LONG time.

Not sure if that totally adds up but its pretty cool.

The only ding I have on my Graf's is that the pitch is a bit too far forward for my tastes and I am making minor adjustments to that as time goes on.

Maybe have someone mount some Mission Pitch or Tuuk Classic+ holders on them and you'll feel a little more like the positio of 501's. I have Tuuks on my 707's with 1/8in lifts and that feels best for me.

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These are some great posts, guys - thanks.

On sizing...I wear a 7.0W in a 703 (not quite deep enough, though), and a 7.0R in a 705 (pretty much a perfect fit). Any thoughts on whether a 7.0N would work in a 707 (I tried a 7.0R and thought the heal was a touch loose; can't remember how much room I had in the forefoot)?

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These are some great posts, guys - thanks.

On sizing...I wear a 7.0W in a 703 (not quite deep enough, though), and a 7.0R in a 705 (pretty much a perfect fit). Any thoughts on whether a 7.0N would work in a 707 (I tried a 7.0R and thought the heal was a touch loose; can't remember how much room I had in the forefoot)?

Hard to say. My major issue with the 707 was the huge heel. If it fit in the forefoot, the G7 has a smaller heel than the 707, so it may work out better for you.

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G7 is definitely nice. If I go that route, I'm considering having it done custom with a clarino lining. The 707 can be had a lot more cheaply and already has the clarino lining.

I guess I'm really wondering how a 707 narrow compares to a 705 regular - all around.

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In my continued quest to find a good fitting skate, I tried on the Graf G7s and they felt great. I'm concerned about the ankle flexibility, however.

In addiiton to some of the comment on this thread, what are the pros and cons of ankle flexibility? My straight-away speed really needs help, so I'm wondering if a stiff boot would be helpful. I understand that power skating requires ankle flexibility for proper outside edge push off. But, I'm concerned that I don't skate enough (once a week) to keep my legs strong enough to take advantage of the ankle flexibility features. I'm also concerned about the durability of the G7s.

I learned to skate from a power skating coach (my sister's figure skating coach) before I ever shot a puck on ice, so I think I have decent technique; although my technique has gotten worse as I have gotten older.

Thoughts?

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In my continued quest to find a good fitting skate, I tried on the Graf G7s and they felt great. I'm concerned about the ankle flexibility, however.

In addiiton to some of the comment on this thread, what are the pros and cons of ankle flexibility? My straight-away speed really needs help, so I'm wondering if a stiff boot would be helpful. I understand that power skating requires ankle flexibility for proper outside edge push off. But, I'm concerned that I don't skate enough (once a week) to keep my legs strong enough to take advantage of the ankle flexibility features. I'm also concerned about the durability of the G7s.

I learned to skate from a power skating coach (my sister's figure skating coach) before I ever shot a puck on ice, so I think I have decent technique; although my technique has gotten worse as I have gotten older.

Thoughts?

Your questions are my questions. The supper stiff lower part of the boot coupled with the ankle flexibility is what really appeals to me. Without having a chance to try it (or a 707), I'm hesitant to take the plunge. I'm also concerned about the durability. Man, do I wish there was a place to demo the skates.

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These are some great posts, guys - thanks.

On sizing...I wear a 7.0W in a 703 (not quite deep enough, though), and a 7.0R in a 705 (pretty much a perfect fit). Any thoughts on whether a 7.0N would work in a 707 (I tried a 7.0R and thought the heal was a touch loose; can't remember how much room I had in the forefoot)?

Hard to say. My major issue with the 707 was the huge heel. If it fit in the forefoot, the G7 has a smaller heel than the 707, so it may work out better for you.

That is the one regret I have with my custom 707s: not getting a narrower heel. Other than that they have been dream skates

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These are some great posts, guys - thanks.

On sizing...I wear a 7.0W in a 703 (not quite deep enough, though), and a 7.0R in a 705 (pretty much a perfect fit). Any thoughts on whether a 7.0N would work in a 707 (I tried a 7.0R and thought the heal was a touch loose; can't remember how much room I had in the forefoot)?

Hard to say. My major issue with the 707 was the huge heel. If it fit in the forefoot, the G7 has a smaller heel than the 707, so it may work out better for you.

That is the one regret I have with my custom 707s: not getting a narrower heel. Other than that they have been dream skates

How would you have gotten a narrower heel, more padding or a different cut?

Also, I'm told by a dealer that a 707 narrow size is only more narrow in the forefoot, not the heel. Anybody confirm?

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