Nike Bauer being sued

[VakarLajos 5]

It's not like the technology is there and it's being ignored. I think that's the crux of the issue for me.

Manufacturers probably could provide helmets that would be almost concussion proof. The price would probably be astronomical and/or it might be cumbersome to wear and therefore would bomb at a retail level.

People already complain that the game is too expensive. People balk at helmets costing $200. I can't imagine what would happen if there was one for $500.

[zebra_steve 11]

You know what..... Helmets may reduce the chance of concussion, but they CANNOT prevent it and no matter what you may see claimed.... It's the twisting and sloshing around of your brain at impact that does it. If they find a way to pad your brain inside your skull then you'll get closer to "concussion proof". They are designed to help reduce the chance of stuff like a skull fracture.Testing done on them is basically putting a weight in them and dropping them onto an anvil and seeing when it breaks......

You want to reduce concussion, play "heads up hockey" and learn to avoid being hit.... and maybe how to take a hit. Most of the concussions happen when someone is hit when they are not ready for it....

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

But what if really protective helmets don't look cool? Or they're the size of football helmets? Bottom line is that every kid is going to want the popular, cool looking, light as air helmet and that's the one they're going to buy. The only way to enforce a higher standard of protection is to increase the requirements of certification. Suing the helmet manufacturer won't help - if they met the standard, they met the standard. If they didn't, fine, then punish them for non-compliance. But if you want to really reduce head trauma, you have to work on the certification standards and sanctioning bodies - the helmet manufactures will always just do the minimum to pass the test.

Rachael and others,

I have to disagree with many people on here about what companies and the Standards boards due. In Canada for instance Health Canada is very much on top of what is going on and always raises the standards. Hence that is why you can no longer by a Cat Eye Cage for goalie masks in Canada nor can you by non approved visors.

As for the Helmet research every company spends countless dollars and time to help make a safer helmet and actually try to see how far they can go to exceed the min of the standards. I have been there and seen this in 2 of the companies.

As many have mentioned Hockey is a Dangerous sport. I myself got together some companies the Research people and made a Helmet fitting video.

Not sure if its been on here but there is information out there.

Fitting is the key. PERIOD. If it is fitted and worn properly NORMAL play injuries should be limited to minor injuries. If they are the wrong helmet for you in fitting and worn in properly then tragic results happen.

No Standard or Helmet Research is going to prevent this!

the Link to the Video for fitting.

http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip234368#clip234368

Keep in mind all persons involved donated the time including TSN for Filming Producing and Editing.

[Machinehead2k5 32]

Fitting is the key. PERIOD. If it is fitted and worn properly NORMAL play injuries should be limited to minor injuries. If they are the wrong helmet for you in fitting and worn in properly then tragic results happen.

I wonder how many of US don't tighten the chinstrap, snugly under our chins and just let it dangle around our adam's apples.

[RadioGaGa 162]

That pretty much sums is it up. And can anyone confirm he was wearing the helmet properly? Knowing midget players I'd say the odds are probably pretty good his chin strap wasn't done up all the way and the helmet could have popped up. I'm just not sure how they'll prove in court he wore it properly.

They could enter as exhibits A-G his PHEW pictures when he was getting his 'swag' rated!

[raganblink 82]

They could enter as exhibits A-G his PHEW pictures when he was getting his 'swag' rated!

Hehe. Any attorney though will say that it was either the same or different from any pic on that site. I wonder if the jurors would make their decision based on how much flop he has? :lol: If he isn't wearing an FM480 facemask I'm sure they'll find everyone not guilty of any wrong doing :P

[frankie56 0]

Oldtrainerguy28,

Nice post and nice video.

I guess I am suspicious when the industry is heavily involved with setting it's own standards. It seems those suspicions are unfounded.

Many of the pros seem to use helmets with the VN foam. Is that because they can get a better fit? Are the pro's helmets custom fitted?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Oldtrainerguy28,

Nice post and nice video.

I guess I am suspicious when the industry is heavily involved with setting it's own standards. It seems those suspicions are unfounded.

Many of the pros seem to use helmets with the VN foam. Is that because they can get a better fit? Are the pro's helmets custom fitted?

Thanks for both and I have lost 15 lbs since then so no more pot belly...ughhhh

The thing is the companies that are on the CSA board have to make things safer and Health Canada insures that! They are VERY VERY strict!

As for the Pros all have to have a helmet that will pass the minimum standard. Once the team gets them if a player does something then nothing can really be done. That being said a lot of trainers are asking and or making guys use new helmets its there butt's on the line!

[NextBobbyOrr 0]

So anyone know how this is doing? I mean there's so many variables to something like this that many of you had already stated. Like was he wearing it properly, what kind of helmet, was it past the "expiration date". Just about the money issue in hockey, if your gonna spend a lot of money on something it should probably be the helmet. Speaking safety wise, that's probably the most important piece. Then maybe shoulder pads and pants, to guard the spyne.

[puckhoggy 0]

Let's say he's wearing the helmet, itself, properly. Will it make a difference in the lawsuit if his cage was not latched on properly/had chin hang? Since afterall in some adult leagues no facial protection is required, just a proper fitted helmet would be nice lol

And was "chin hang" popular 7 or so years ago? I only ask since i started playing a few years ago.

[zebra_steve 11]

Chin hang has always been popular.... partly the "cool factor" and partly not getting used to the feeling of having the strap "2 finger" tight. If I were gonna wear a strap "1 finger" tight i would rather have a football\chincup type strap. I wear it 2 finger for playing an reffing...

[raganblink 82]

Honestly I think hang no matter the kind has always been popular, and will always be popular. I only know a handful of people who wear their equipment to HECC/CSA standards. Reason we don't do it properly is comfort and to not look like dorks. Will always be this way.

[skarbro 0]

Honestly I think hang no matter the kind has always been popular, and will always be popular. I only know a handful of people who wear their equipment to HECC/CSA standards. Reason we don't do it properly is comfort and to not look like dorks. Will always be this way.

Honestly, I always thought that hang looked dorky. But then again I wear a neck guard and am looking into buying skate guards.

[zebra_steve 11]

The one thing I will tell you from experience is that if it's more than 2 fingers you risk having the helmet slide up on your head when you get hit. Bad things can happen to you this occurs. I have had my feet taken out and landed on the back of my head - we're talking shoulders and back of the head hitting first with all of my 270+ pound.... ~ 9.5 on the Richter scale here. You know it's bad when you hear a whole bench go "ooooh" and repeatedly ask you if you're ok. If I had a looser strap the helmet would not have been covering the back of my skull when it slammed the ice.... and I set my helmets up for a nice snug fit and barely 2 fingers under the strap.....

There's more than just "the rules" in play when us referees tell you guys to buckle up or tighten up......

[forbs02 20]

Another subject that needs to be brought into this is how susceptible the player is to concussions. Previous history will help to determine if he was already at risk for a severe concussion. If a person has already had a concussion, or even multiple concussions, they are more likely to receive another, regardless of what helmet they are wearing. Steve has already pointed out that concussions aren't always caused by impacts to the head. If a player gets hit hard enough that their head gets snapped forward or back, the brain can slosh in the skull and hit the bone, causing an injury.

There is no such thing as a concussion-proof helmet.

This is just an awful situation and I feel for the family, but this is one lawsuit I don't think they will win. There are just too many variables.

[fiimb 1]

hanging chin strap is only cool cause we deem it cool. as soon as guy's start getting backlash for the hanging chin strap it won't be so cool anymore.

i'd compare it seatbelts in cars. i don't think anyone can get away with not wearing one nowadays without someone giving them the stinkface.

we have 1 guy that's just terrible and thinks he's the bee's knees and never does up his chin strap. he really does look like an idiot, especially since his skating isn't proficient.

[PMurphy17 25]

Thanks for both and I have lost 15 lbs since then so no more pot belly...ughhhh

The thing is the companies that are on the CSA board have to make things safer and Health Canada insures that! They are VERY VERY strict!

As for the Pros all have to have a helmet that will pass the minimum standard. Once the team gets them if a player does something then nothing can really be done. That being said a lot of trainers are asking and or making guys use new helmets its there butt's on the line!

The 15lbs went to your brain?

As for the Pro comment. The players and trainers don't do anything to the helmets.

There is no way to test a lot of the pro helmets because a lot are not made in batchs like retail models. So the fact they pass will never be proven.

[dsjunior1388 81]

The 15lbs went to your brain?

As for the Pro comment. The players and trainers don't do anything to the helmets.

There is no way to test a lot of the pro helmets because a lot are not made in batchs like retail models. So the fact they pass will never be proven.

I think what he's saying is trainers try to tell players to switch to a better helmet and leave the 4500 and the old CCM's behind. They probably also try to tell players not to hang their chin strap like bertuzzi.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Some would argue the 4500 and old CCMs were better.

[Chadd 916]

Some would argue the 4500 and old CCMs were better.

Murph, you still have those old concussion numbers around somewhere?

[BobbyD9 0]

It would depend on whether the helmet was a proximate cause of the injury or whether there were superseding causes. Some superseding causes could be the certification of the helmet, whether it was properly fit or worn, the warning label sufficiency or whether there was a known defect in manufacturing of the helmet. Also you would need to take into consideration the inherent risk of our sport and the mode of accident. All in all it doesn't sound like a great case to me.

[cptjeff 0]

Murph, you still have those old concussion numbers around somewhere?

Would those compensate for the increased awareness of concussions in recent years?

As for the improper wear discussion, it sounds like he was wearing it pretty normally. Not necessarily according to the instructions, but very much within the norm. From a legal point of view, a company cannot escape liability if they know how their product is used and do not work to meet standards for actual use. Sure you can put a label on a car saying "brakes only rated for use below 40 MPH", but you'll still be liable if somebody tries to stop going 60. You probably could escape liability if they were way outside the norm, say going 200. If bauer tries the he wasn't wearing it properly argument, they would have to show at least a single person who actually wears the chinstrap snugly. I've tried it. On my 5000, it cuts into your adams apple quite painfully if worn as directed. There simply cannot be any reasonable expectation of a chinstrap tightened like that.

So yeah, that one won't hold up, but the certification expired argument will hold up, as would the argument based on the "Hockey is an inherently dangerous sport, and equipment will not eliminate all risk" label that hockey equipment companies slap across everything.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

The 15lbs went to your brain?

As for the Pro comment. The players and trainers don't do anything to the helmets.

There is no way to test a lot of the pro helmets because a lot are not made in batchs like retail models. So the fact they pass will never be proven.

All helmets shipped to teams must leave the factory as Apporved hlemets!

What happens after is up to teams.

Would those compensate for the increased awareness of concussions in recent years?

As for the improper wear discussion, it sounds like he was wearing it pretty normally. Not necessarily according to the instructions, but very much within the norm. From a legal point of view, a company cannot escape liability if they know how their product is used and do not work to meet standards for actual use. Sure you can put a label on a car saying "brakes only rated for use below 40 MPH", but you'll still be liable if somebody tries to stop going 60. You probably could escape liability if they were way outside the norm, say going 200. If bauer tries the he wasn't wearing it properly argument, they would have to show at least a single person who actually wears the chinstrap snugly. I've tried it. On my 5000, it cuts into your adams apple quite painfully if worn as directed. There simply cannot be any reasonable expectation of a chinstrap tightened like that.

So yeah, that one won't hold up, but the certification expired argument will hold up, as would the argument based on the "Hockey is an inherently dangerous sport, and equipment will not eliminate all risk" label that hockey equipment companies slap across everything.

Not sure where you read it was worn properly?

There is cage and helmet combo issues going around that is being looked at being addressed even before this issue.

[furlanitalia 1]

Would those compensate for the increased awareness of concussions in recent years?

As for the improper wear discussion, it sounds like he was wearing it pretty normally. Not necessarily according to the instructions, but very much within the norm. From a legal point of view, a company cannot escape liability if they know how their product is used and do not work to meet standards for actual use. Sure you can put a label on a car saying "brakes only rated for use below 40 MPH", but you'll still be liable if somebody tries to stop going 60. You probably could escape liability if they were way outside the norm, say going 200. If bauer tries the he wasn't wearing it properly argument, they would have to show at least a single person who actually wears the chinstrap snugly. I've tried it. On my 5000, it cuts into your adams apple quite painfully if worn as directed. There simply cannot be any reasonable expectation of a chinstrap tightened like that.

So yeah, that one won't hold up, but the certification expired argument will hold up, as would the argument based on the "Hockey is an inherently dangerous sport, and equipment will not eliminate all risk" label that hockey equipment companies slap across everything.

They've got one right here. I wear it so it just touches under my chin and I can snugly fit a finger in between, maybe two as per directed. It doesn't need to be skin tight on you, but leaving anything more than an inch and it's improper use. Which sadly is what most kids do.

[cptjeff 0]

They've got one right here. I wear it so it just touches under my chin and I can snugly fit a finger in between, maybe two as per directed. It doesn't need to be skin tight on you, but leaving anything more than an inch and it's improper use. Which sadly is what most kids do.

When two fingers tight, when I lean my head forward the strap cuts into my neck. Using the helmet in question. Wearing it as directed would be quite literally painful for me every time I looked down at the puck. A reasonable person would not be expected to comply with the instructions in a case like that. (BTW, in case you're not familiar, 'reasonable person' is a legal standard).

Also, just one was an exaggeration, they would have to establish that how he was wearing it was far outside the realm of common practice. The standard is that they would have to show that a reasonable person could not have anticipated what happened. The point was that very, very few people actually wear their helmet straps as per the instructions, and Bauer, HEC, and CSA are all perfectly aware of that. It's the car example again- sure, you may always drive below 40mph as per the instructions, but you would have to prove that driving above that wasn't a normal thing to do at all. Bauer would have to prove that the kid was not exercising a reasonable standard of care. Reasonable standards can be defined by rules, but if he had it buckled and as tight as most anybody had it, that probably meets the reasonable standard.

Not sure where you read it was worn properly?

There is cage and helmet combo issues going around that is being looked at being addressed even before this issue.

Didn't say it was being worn properly. In fact, my post presumed it wasn't. However, as I understand it what he was doing was hardly unusual, and hardly something that was unknown to the maker and standards authority.

However, unless Bauer relies on that argument alone, they would still be fine as they don't actually guarantee that any of their products will insulate you from harm, merely that the products will mitigate said damage.