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Hockey skate fit -- leg length discrepancy, pronation, supination

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On 3/8/2018 at 8:56 PM, Playmakersedge said:

Hi . Oh grade 8 bolts at four or six in the rear and four in the front of the holder is overkill in reality. Far stronger then how blade holders are being fastened by the factory.     What I showed in the drawing was just a visual aid to see what principal I am applying.  There is a loss of written compared to spoken word.    

           These are things I am going to fabricate.  I am not capable of writing every detail with the clarity necessary for you guys to see what's going to go between my brain and my hands .      There is no need for bushings because  the sheer load has plenty of support from the side that's low .     Also too there is going to be a mold made from masking tape with every thing in situ  once all the adjustments are made . Fiberglass resin with black pigment is pourd in .  What I see in my mind will absolutely work  . Having adjustments in both skates gives the opportunity to adjust height so the hips/ pelvis  are level. Once this is complete the skates will look like they came like that .  Lmk if you would like me to build these . I need the skates with the blade holders removed.  I'm not offering for any financial gains . Simply to help you guys out . Just materials  is all I'm expecting.      I like doing these kind of things.   

Thanks very much for you offer, but what I decided to do as a stop gap measure was to use the t-bolt system and since I have moved the holders medially already I will just use wedges 1/8", 1/4" or whatever it may take. It will be a quick change on the end of the bench if I have the right screw driver and the can experiment until thing feel right. You method looked good, perhaps I will be going that way if my intended way does not work.

Nothing lost, I can only see a gain with the outside lateral posting and I feel from my very first try with outside posting my "expert" at the time used 3 mm to start off and it worked well, I am sure I need more than that now.

Cheers - Alan

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On 1/30/2018 at 6:39 PM, IPv6Freely said:

#5 would be to go VH/True and have your last built to accommodate your supination.

 I don't want to start a huge thing Chris but why is that always the answer?

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8 hours ago, smu said:

Thanks very much for you offer, but what I decided to do as a stop gap measure was to use the t-bolt system and since I have moved the holders medially already I will just use wedges 1/8", 1/4" or whatever it may take. It will be a quick change on the end of the bench if I have the right screw driver and the can experiment until thing feel right. You method looked good, perhaps I will be going that way if my intended way does not work.

Nothing lost, I can only see a gain with the outside lateral posting and I feel from my very first try with outside posting my "expert" at the time used 3 mm to start off and it worked well, I am sure I need more than that now.

Cheers - Alan

This  will not work !!!  A) adjustment medial. Will partially help but create another problem  .  B) your wedging will not work  . You can not make a change on one end of any kind of chassis at one point ,for the change at the one point affects other parts of the chassis .     Your skate holder is a chassis  .  Example  : adding a wedge to the medeal rear will push up the boot @ that poipoint  . Yet it also causes torsion; and this torsion is transferring downward force on the front on the opposite side.   This causes the other side front to become light or lifted.      

So without adjusting at all four corners you will never have the correct weight distribution/ weight transfer . You are going to be chasing a correction that can not be made at one point of adjustment. 

Off setting the blade off center:  improves one thing . But screws up others  .  Chassis:  when I set up a car to go fast and turn left only . This is called stagger the secondary adjustment to stagger is wedge  ..(speed skating).   Now when I build a car to run a road racing course or pikes peak I set the car up as close as possible to a 50/50 weight distribution  . This starting with the geometry of the suspension to be reactive. The forces are cross proportional .      The cross proportional is the parallel to hockey skates.          I'm just trying to prevent another  x amount of years of you working on this issue  . 

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Another factor is this. The skate blade will torsion with the adjustment being made with out weight transfer counter adjustment.. The sharpener will cut the blade with no weight on it . Once they go on your feet and you apply your body weight that blade will twist  . This is going to feel weird and go threw the ice with significant more resistance then your other foot .      Far more in the big picture here then straightening an ankle.      Smu this is your gig . I would feel bad to not share.  Then sit back and watch you struggle with it . 

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On 3/11/2018 at 8:16 PM, Playmakersedge said:

Another factor is this. The skate blade will torsion with the adjustment being made with out weight transfer counter adjustment.. The sharpener will cut the blade with no weight on it . Once they go on your feet and you apply your body weight that blade will twist  . This is going to feel weird and go threw the ice with significant more resistance then your other foot .      Far more in the big picture here then straightening an ankle.      Smu this is your gig . I would feel bad to not share.  Then sit back and watch you struggle with it . 

I really appreciate you sharing your information and for me trying to get the right fix over the last ten years is driving me nuts. I am literally apprehensive to step on the ice each and every game not knowing if my last medial posting would work this time and more often than not I would find that I need to play around with the correction again!

I am trying to understand what you are telling me here, is there any others out there that share the same view so that I can have my LHS do this correction. He just finished my skates with t-bolts so that I can insert wedges outside (laterally) while on the bench.

I hate to bother you, but I am desperate to get that proper fix.

What if I got a new set of narrow inline holders that will take a skate blade, would this work at all, by pinpointing the middle rear heel pocket as the first point then trace a line up to between my big toe and the next toe to it with that medial move made on that plane, from the mid heel pocket the gradually over to the new placement of the front of the holder, although now now over more medially in the front toe area.

Thanks for all the help!

Alan

 

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I've just read through all of this and it's interesting if a bit overwhelming and technical.

My right ankle pronates.....bad. I'm on my feet all day for and work and can see the wear on the soles of my boots so fitted orthotics of the shelf and it seemed to work. The reason it highlighted the problem was I got a pair of rbz's and thought great I won't need another pair of skates ever but they've started to breakdown. I done loads of research and wear orthotics in all my footwear now. But I can't get the skates right and stop them breaking down on the my right skate.

The breakdown is coming on the outside of the eyelets. The boot looks like it's folding at the ankle and I can tell it's wear I push off and my ankle pronates.

I've changed my lace style and tightness, I've shimmed front and back just slightly the outside of the boot and use suppoted insoles like super feet and for a time the ccm inner soles with wedges. It's definitely got better but then I notice the breakdown on the skate again and don't know if what I'm doing is right. I wedge the front and rear of the innersole.

I'm thinking of measuring how far my heel lifts before my tendon is straight and using that.........just want to make the boot last.

Seeing a physio soon and seen a podiatrist about issues that I think are linked to poor biometric alignment.

I've read other threads on here and will be watching this one closely.

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12 hours ago, smu said:

I really appreciate you sharing your information and for me trying to get the right fix over the last ten years is driving me nuts. I am literally apprehensive to step on the ice each and every game not knowing if my last medial posting would work this time and more often than not I would find that I need to play around with the correction again!

I am trying to understand what you are telling me here, is there any others out there that share the same view so that I can have my LHS do this correction. He just finished my skates with t-bolts so that I can insert wedges outside (laterally) while on the bench.

I hate to bother you, but I am desperate to get that proper fix.

What if I got a new set of narrow inline holders that will take a skate blade, would this work at all, by pinpointing the middle rear heel pocket as the first point then trace a line up to between my big toe and the next toe to it with that medial move made on that plane, from the mid heel pocket the gradually over to the new placement of the front of the holder, although now now over more medially in the front toe area.

Thanks for all the help!

Alan

 

@ Alan  , You are welcome.   With this situation you are having:  I read the post and started spinning out solutions.  None of this are things that I have seen and then telling about.  It's something that I came up with to fix your problem. 

The inline skate to ice conversion and moving the blade laterally won't really work . The reason why is this:  the blade movement laterally puts it off center.  Being off center isn't your center of gravity.  ...... The center of gravity is established threw your leg bones  ; and the blade has to be centered to the tibia.     Off setting the blade won't work. 

What the Lhs is doing for you: putting shims in the rear between the boot and the blade.  It will not work on its own . The reason is making an adjustment in the rear is putting the boot in torsion.  Twisting.  The adjustment has to be made front and back.  The shims make things more complicated.  Not mechanically ;but measurement wise . Really it's about the adjustment  . Who cares how much . Turn a bolt and when it' right it's right.  The thing to remember is we are making an adjustment at the point of a result of the cause  (leg length, interior ankle deformity)   

I have described it the best I am capable of writing. 

I can build this set up for you or anyone else that wants me too . I am happy to do it .   Send me the skates with blade holder removed with some money for material and I will fabricate the set up . I am near Albany NY .   

Edited by Playmakersedge
Added info

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1 hour ago, skinni44 said:

I've just read through all of this and it's interesting if a bit overwhelming and technical.

My right ankle pronates.....bad. I'm on my feet all day for and work and can see the wear on the soles of my boots so fitted orthotics of the shelf and it seemed to work. The reason it highlighted the problem was I got a pair of rbz's and thought great I won't need another pair of skates ever but they've started to breakdown. I done loads of research and wear orthotics in all my footwear now. But I can't get the skates right and stop them breaking down on the my right skate.

The breakdown is coming on the outside of the eyelets. The boot looks like it's folding at the ankle and I can tell it's wear I push off and my ankle pronates.

I've changed my lace style and tightness, I've shimmed front and back just slightly the outside of the boot and use suppoted insoles like super feet and for a time the ccm inner soles with wedges. It's definitely got better but then I notice the breakdown on the skate again and don't know if what I'm doing is right. I wedge the front and rear of the innersole.

I'm thinking of measuring how far my heel lifts before my tendon is straight and using that.........just want to make the boot last.

Seeing a physio soon and seen a podiatrist about issues that I think are linked to poor biometric alignment.

I've read other threads on here and will be watching this one closely.

 

1 hour ago, skinni44 said:

I've just read through all of this and it's interesting if a bit overwhelming and technical.

My right ankle pronates.....bad. I'm on my feet all day for and work and can see the wear on the soles of my boots so fitted orthotics of the shelf and it seemed to work. The reason it highlighted the problem was I got a pair of rbz's and thought great I won't need another pair of skates ever but they've started to breakdown. I done loads of research and wear orthotics in all my footwear now. But I can't get the skates right and stop them breaking down on the my right skate.

The breakdown is coming on the outside of the eyelets. The boot looks like it's folding at the ankle and I can tell it's wear I push off and my ankle pronates.

I've changed my lace style and tightness, I've shimmed front and back just slightly the outside of the boot and use suppoted insoles like super feet and for a time the ccm inner soles with wedges. It's definitely got better but then I notice the breakdown on the skate again and don't know if what I'm doing is right. I wedge the front and rear of the innersole.

I'm thinking of measuring how far my heel lifts before my tendon is straight and using that.........just want to make the boot last.

Seeing a physio soon and seen a podiatrist about issues that I think are linked to poor biometric alignment.

I've read other threads on here and will be watching this one closely.

I'm seeing in my mind that your orthotic inside the skate is the cause of the boot break down. I think it's raising your foot in the boot and putting force on a section of boot not designed for it.  

     I think my Jack bolt rig would work for you .    

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12 minutes ago, Playmakersedge said:

@ Alan  ,  With this situation you are having:  I read the post and started spinning out solutions.  None of this are things that I have seen and then telling about.  It's something that I came up with to fix your problem. 

The inline skate to ice conversion and moving the blade laterally won't really work . The reason why is this:  the blade movement laterally puts it off center.  Being off center isn't your center of gravity.  ...... The center of gravity is established threw your leg bones  ; and the blade has to be centered to the tibia.     Off setting the blade won't work. 

What the Lhs is doing for you: putting shims in the rear between the boot and the blade.  It will not work on its own . The reason is making an adjustment in the rear is putting the boot in torsion.  Twisting.  The adjustment has to be made front and back.  The shims make things more complicated.  Not mechanically ;but measurement wise . Really it's about the adjustment  . Who cares how much . Turn a bolt and when it' right it's right.  The thing to remember is we are making an adjustment at the point of a result of the cause  (leg length, interior ankle deformity)   

I have described it the best I am capable of writing. 

I can build this set up for you or anyone else that wants me too . I am happy to do it .   Send me the skates with blade holder removed with some money for material and I will fabricate the set up . I am near Albany NY .   

Thanks so much for responding once again! It was not the intention of only posting the heel area, but both front and back. To my LHS your idea looked great, but I thought I would take the easier approach first to see where it might get me with not much left of the season for me in game and a shoulder injury that at least I am just pre-game skating.

My only thoughts on not being over the COG bi shifting the holder by the constant 1/8" would be that the COG should be measured from the midpoint of the heel pocket and a line from that point to a point between your big toe and second toe, but this may be difficult to define. But, if you are suffering from over pronation  and use the midpoint of the heel pocket at least that's what I see in any literature then you must be leaning towards that COG point. If you are going to change the COG then this allows the foot in the skate to follow a much better line by as it is the only way to go.

Do you have any idea how the Pros do this, I would think there are many that need pronation help, perhaps it is the way you suggest, it does sound great.

Thanks - Alan

 

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5 minutes ago, smu said:

Thanks so much for responding once again! It was not the intention of only posting the heel area, but both front and back. To my LHS your idea looked great, but I thought I would take the easier approach first to see where it might get me with not much left of the season for me in game and a shoulder injury that at least I am just pre-game skating.

My only thoughts on not being over the COG bi shifting the holder by the constant 1/8" would be that the COG should be measured from the midpoint of the heel pocket and a line from that point to a point between your big toe and second toe, but this may be difficult to define. But, if you are suffering from over pronation  and use the midpoint of the heel pocket at least that's what I see in any literature then you must be leaning towards that COG point. If you are going to change the COG then this allows the foot in the skate to follow a much better line by as it is the only way to go.

Do you have any idea how the Pros do this, I would think there are many that need pronation help, perhaps it is the way you suggest, it does sound great.

Thanks - Alan

 

Pros are having there skates made for them .           

What you are saying about the cg is center of the heal etc is correct in a normal situation.  

A situation like yours normal is not on the table  .        With an ankle that's rolling in the heel is pointing outward.  

The theory of off setting the blade to turn the ankle straight  , in and of it self says the blade is move laterally past the normal cg .     This is not the place to make the correction .   Leave it alone.  I thought about this more after posting that inline skate conversion and determined  it's a poor way to do it .  

Don't have so much going on . I mean inside, outside the boot, shifting the blade  .  No .go to the logical spot .     Between the boot and the blade holder. 

The way you are tackling this:  it would be easy if you could take a measurement put a shim there and there and done . Go out take a few laps good to go .........  The reason this is being such a long process is you have usually and hour to hour and a half public skate session to make a minor change you gotta take your skate off unscrew the holder ,make adjustments and put the skate back on . And if your children are with you they are going to be the majority of your focus . Then you gotta wait for another week to try any major changes.   

shims you can't drop to a knee back off a couple nuts turn the bolts,  lock down the nuts and take a couple laps. You don't have to remove the skates  . And the ability to make fine adjustments .   

 

Back to about the pros . I would guess is there are not many out there with ankle issues.     I could be totally wrong because I am basing my opinion on my experience when I played . That isn't current.    

You are welcome , it's not a big deal.  Just don't want to see you chase a shadow   

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20 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

 

I'm seeing in my mind that your orthotic inside the skate is the cause of the boot break down. I think it's raising your foot in the boot and putting force on a section of boot not designed for it.  

     I think my Jack bolt rig would work for you .    

It's a problem I've been having since young but only just taken notice of it now. The fold has been happening on previous skates but I didn't think anything of it. 

I play inline now but played both ice and inline and could never workout why the top of the right ice boot irritated the top of my ankle to the point of blood until recently.

These skates were my first pair in 4 years so the quality and stiffness between the 2 were a lot and when you see the boot start to fold you know there's a problem. I'll try and get a picture tomorrow of the boot so you can see and better understand.

Your idea sounds great for adjusting but what about equipment rules, would it break any?

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20 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

Pros are having there skates made for them .           

What you are saying about the cg is center of the heal etc is correct in a normal situation.  

A situation like yours normal is not on the table  .        With an ankle that's rolling in the heel is pointing outward.  

The theory of off setting the blade to turn the ankle straight  , in and of it self says the blade is move laterally past the normal cg .     This is not the place to make the correction .   Leave it alone.  I thought about this more after posting that inline skate conversion and determined  it's a poor way to do it .  

Don't have so much going on . I mean inside, outside the boot, shifting the blade  .  No .go to the logical spot .     Between the boot and the blade holder. 

The way you are tackling this:  it would be easy if you could take a measurement put a shim there and there and done . Go out take a few laps good to go .........  The reason this is being such a long process is you have usually and hour to hour and a half public skate session to make a minor change you gotta take your skate off unscrew the holder ,make adjustments and put the skate back on . And if your children are with you they are going to be the majority of your focus . Then you gotta wait for another week to try any major changes.   

shims you can't drop to a knee back off a couple nuts turn the bolts,  lock down the nuts and take a couple laps. You don't have to remove the skates  . And the ability to make fine adjustments .   

 

Back to about the pros . I would guess is there are not many out there with ankle issues.     I could be totally wrong because I am basing my opinion on my experience when I played . That isn't current.    

You are welcome , it's not a big deal.  Just don't want to see you chase a shadow   

Shane (it is right?) I am thinking of your method, but today I may have taken one step further to see where it gets me. I have not tried it yet, but now I have 4 t-bolts (Graf) back and front on both skates and just finished making various thicknesses of wedges. Now I can just see if I can get close to my goal and go further after this.

At least I do not have my grandchildren with me so I have plenty of time on  the bench altering my skates. My buddies are now used to it. I want to try this first before I take your route that appears to be the best although I have never heard of you method before, thanks for getting involved.

My LHS would have considered your method, but I said lets take this step first. After I had the 1/8" medial holder move at least I know this is not in my head etc. I want to see how far I can go with the quick insertion of wedges that I have just fabricated for front and back and should be on the ice skating tomorrow. One huge problem I found on any correction. I always felt that the skates did not feel that bad until we started an actual game then the problems would present themselves so it is so hard to tell how I really feel with just skating around with the guys before the game starts, then leave. But I am wearing my gear tomorrow and might play ten minutes of defence hoping I don't compromise my shoulder more. We only have until the end of March it would be a big deal if I re-injure my shoulder.

I trust my LHS guy to be able to do your fix if you don't mind, if it were not for him I would send them to you. The problem there is that you are in Albany NY and I am near Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada and shipping would be difficult with customs and all.

I hope you wait for my next post tomorrow, if I make it to the game. I am looking for it. My LHS will be waiting as well for my feed back.

Again, I really appreciate your helping out, it would appear to fix all! You did see Vet88s proposal of a system as well although quite different.

Cheers,

Alan

alan.sheppard@gmail.com

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8 hours ago, smu said:

Shane (it is right?) I am thinking of your method, but today I may have taken one step further to see where it gets me. I have not tried it yet, but now I have 4 t-bolts (Graf) back and front on both skates and just finished making various thicknesses of wedges. Now I can just see if I can get close to my goal and go further after this.

At least I do not have my grandchildren with me so I have plenty of time on  the bench altering my skates. My buddies are now used to it. I want to try this first before I take your route that appears to be the best although I have never heard of you method before, thanks for getting involved.

My LHS would have considered your method, but I said lets take this step first. After I had the 1/8" medial holder move at least I know this is not in my head etc. I want to see how far I can go with the quick insertion of wedges that I have just fabricated for front and back and should be on the ice skating tomorrow. One huge problem I found on any correction. I always felt that the skates did not feel that bad until we started an actual game then the problems would present themselves so it is so hard to tell how I really feel with just skating around with the guys before the game starts, then leave. But I am wearing my gear tomorrow and might play ten minutes of defence hoping I don't compromise my shoulder more. We only have until the end of March it would be a big deal if I re-injure my shoulder.

I trust my LHS guy to be able to do your fix if you don't mind, if it were not for him I would send them to you. The problem there is that you are in Albany NY and I am near Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada and shipping would be difficult with customs and all.

I hope you wait for my next post tomorrow, if I make it to the game. I am looking for it. My LHS will be waiting as well for my feed back.

Again, I really appreciate your helping out, it would appear to fix all! You did see Vet88s proposal of a system as well although quite different.

Cheers,

Alan

alan.sheppard@gmail.com

Hi Alan.   If the guy at your lhs is an engineer type and fabricator/  machinist he can most likely do it . However if he mis interprets what I designed then you won't be receiving exactly what is going on in my head. Again Alan I can't stress enough ; the parts to my rig do no exist . Going to take machining, welding, thread incerts,thread incert installer , band saw to cut the load carrying plates.   Not typical equipment for a lhs .        As far as I know it has never been done .   One thought to about the wedges you are going to have significant pressure at the point of contact on the tuuk  . Make sure you have contact on both sides of the bolts.  Also be mindful of the force wanting to push out the wedges   . I will be looking for the status 

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10 hours ago, skinni44 said:

It's a problem I've been having since young but only just taken notice of it now. The fold has been happening on previous skates but I didn't think anything of it. 

I play inline now but played both ice and inline and could never workout why the top of the right ice boot irritated the top of my ankle to the point of blood until recently.

These skates were my first pair in 4 years so the quality and stiffness between the 2 were a lot and when you see the boot start to fold you know there's a problem. I'll try and get a picture tomorrow of the boot so you can see and better understand.

Your idea sounds great for adjusting but what about equipment rules, would it break any?

With what I am talking about completed with the rig encased in urethane no one will know  you have it .    

I think the problem is so pronounced now because of the skate being so much stiffer and the range of motion so little  .     If you like I can make up and install the units for you .   I think this kind of stuff is fun 

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On 3/14/2018 at 7:38 PM, smu said:

Shane (it is right?) I am thinking of your method, but today I may have taken one step further to see where it gets me. I have not tried it yet, but now I have 4 t-bolts (Graf) back and front on both skates and just finished making various thicknesses of wedges. Now I can just see if I can get close to my goal and go further after this.

At least I do not have my grandchildren with me so I have plenty of time on  the bench altering my skates. My buddies are now used to it. I want to try this first before I take your route that appears to be the best although I have never heard of you method before, thanks for getting involved.

My LHS would have cyonsidered your method, but I said lets take this step first. After I had the 1/8" medial holder move at least I know this is not in my head etc. I want to see how far I can go with the quick insertion of wedges that I have just fabricated for front and back and should be on the ice skating tomorrow. One huge problem I found on any correction. I always felt that the skates did not feel that bad until we started an actual game then the problems would present themselves so it is so hard to tell how I really feel with just skating around with the guys before the game starts, then leave. But I am wearing my gear tomorrow and might play ten minutes of defence hoping I don't compromise my shoulder more. We only have until the end of March it would be a big deal if I re-injure my shoulder.

I trust my LHS guy to be able to do your fix if you don't mind, if it were not for him I would send them to you. The problem there is that you are in Albany NY and I am near Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada and shipping would be difficult with customs and all.

I hope you wait for my next post tomorrow, if I make it to the game. I am looking for it. My LHS will be waiting as well for my feed back.

Again, I really appreciate your helping out, it would appear to fix all! You did see Vet88s proposal of a system as well although quite different.

Cheers,

Alan

alan.sheppard@gmail.com

Hi Alan.   If the guy at your lhs is an engineer type and fabricator/  machinist he can most likely do it . However if he mis interprets what I designed then you won't be receiving exactly what is going on in my head. Again Alan I can't stress enough ; the parts to my rig do no exist . Going to take machining, welding, thread incerts,thread incert installer , band saw to cut the load carrying plates.   Not typical equipment for a lhs .        As far as I know it has never been done .   One thought to about the wedges you are going to have significant pressure at the point of contact on the tuuk  . Make sure you have contact on both sides of the bolts.  Also be mindful of the force wanting to push out the wedges   . I will be looking for the status  yes Shane is correct  .

Edited by Playmakersedge
Messed up

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17 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

Hi Alan.   If the guy at your lhs is an engineer type and fabricator/  machinist he can most likely do it . However if he mis interprets what I designed then you won't be receiving exactly what is going on in my head. Again Alan I can't stress enough ; the parts to my rig do no exist . Going to take machining, welding, thread incerts,thread incert installer , band saw to cut the load carrying plates.   Not typical equipment for a lhs .        As far as I know it has never been done .   One thought to about the wedges you are going to have significant pressure at the point of contact on the tuuk  . Make sure you have contact on both sides of the bolts.  Also be mindful of the force wanting to push out the wedges   . I will be looking for the status  yes Shane is correct  .

Good news Shane,

I had a short 10 minute skate before the game started with full gear on and it was amazing! This is the first that I can remember having both edges of each skate on the ice at the same time and it felt weird to me, but fantastic! I was so used to having the feeling of being one edge only wondering why. This was not a game situation, but immediately was given the feeling that I was now back skating abilities that I once had!

Prior to the game I inserted about 1.5mm on both skates, laterally, between the holders and the boot out-sole, back and front.

I figured that since the LHS, in 2008, used 3mm to correct what I thought then was a mild over pronation problem with my right foot, I decided to insert just 1.5mm back and front since my holders have just been shifted 1/8" medially and and did not want to add that much right away. Also I used a pair of custom Superfeet made for me and I owe Superfeet a lot of thanks!.  Superfeet did a great job of trying to help my situation increasing their posting to 5º with a special molded pair.

I used these in my skates today and the wedges just to make sure I would not hopefully pronate and I did not!

I left the rink early, wishing only that I could stay and skate. I am really going to try and play our last game in March and take it easy! I just can't help myself for the good felling I had today!

Back to your design, my father was a machinists and I learned a little from that business growing up, but I am no machinists. Cut, weld, grind, drill etc I can do, but now I am not sure what your method needs in this regard.

I again thank you for the offer to send my skates to you, but I really don't know what exactly is being done, especially after today's skate! I am unsure what my great LHS can do, but certainly not on their corporate premises. It would have to be someone with the background, would I be correct. I do have the resources fro  me to my nephew that is in that business. It is not because I don't want to pay for it, but if I can get it done by your specs here in Halifax would be fantastic!

Please email if you wish, the address is below. I am 69 this month and so much want to pick up my game again to where it was 10 or 15 years ago. I am a young 69 lets say I feal like a 44 year old when I first started Tae-Kwon-Do when I was 44 and reached 2nd degree black in 2007 and if my right knee was not giving me problems I would have had mt 3rd degree black just before stopping it in 2012 because of that!

Don't forget to use my email, I am still interested in your fix.

Cheers - Alan

alan.sheppard@gmail.com

 

 

Edited by smu
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1 hour ago, smu said:

Good news Shane,

I had a short 10 minute skate before the game started with full gear on and it was amazing! This is the first that I can remember having both edges of each skate on the ice at the same time and it felt weird to me, but fantastic! I was so used to having the feeling of being one edge only wondering why. This was not a game situation, but immediately was given the feeling that I was now back skating abilities that I once had!

Prior to the game I inserted about 1.5mm on both skates, laterally, between the holders and the boot out-sole, back and front.

I figured that since the LHS, in 2008, used 3mm to correct what I thought then was a mild over pronation problem with my right foot, I decided to insert just 1.5mm back and front since my holders have just been shifted 1/8" medially and and did not want to add that much right away. Also I used a pair of custom Superfeet made for me and I owe Superfeet a lot of thanks!.  Superfeet did a great job of trying to help my situation increasing their posting to 5º with a special molded pair.

I used these in my skates today and the wedges just to make sure I would not hopefully pronate and I did not!

I left the rink early, wishing only that I could stay and skate. I am really going to try and play our last game in March and take it easy! I just can't help myself for the good felling I had today!

Back to your design, my father was a machinists and I learned a little from that business growing up, but I am no machinists. Cut, weld, grind, drill etc I can do, but now I am not sure what your method needs in this regard.

I again thank you for the offer to send my skates to you, but I really don't know what exactly is being done, especially after today's skate! I am unsure what my great LHS can do, but certainly not on their corporate premises. It would have to be someone with the background, would I be correct. I do have the resources fro  me to my nephew that is in that business. It is not because I don't want to pay for it, but if I can get it done by your specs here in Halifax would be fantastic!

Please email if you wish, the address is below. I am 69 this month and so much want to pick up my game again to where it was 10 or 15 years ago. I am a young 69 lets say I feal like a 44 year old when I first started Tae-Kwon-Do when I was 44 and reached 2nd degree black in 2007 and if my right knee was not giving me problems I would have had mt 3rd degree black just before stopping it in 2012 because of that!

Don't forget to use my email, I am still interested in your fix.

Cheers - Alan

alan.sheppard@gmail.com

 

 

Yes excellent news.   I will email you. 

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On 2018-03-13 at 8:48 PM, skinni44 said:

“I've just read through all of this and it's interesting if a bit overwhelming and technical.

My right ankle pronates.....bad. I'm on my feet all day for and work and can see the wear on the soles of my boots so fitted orthotics of the shelf and it seemed to work. The reason it highlighted the problem was I got a pair of rbz's and thought great I won't need another pair of skates ever but they've started to breakdown. I done loads of research and wear orthotics in all my footwear now. But I can't get the skates right and stop them breaking down on the my right skate.

The breakdown is coming on the outside of the eyelets. The boot looks like it's folding at the ankle and I can tell it's wear I push off and my ankle pronates.

I've changed my lace style and tightness, I've shimmed front and back just slightly the outside of the boot and use suppoted insoles like super feet and for a time the ccm inner soles with wedges. It's definitely got better but then I notice the breakdown on the skate again and don't know if what I'm doing is right. I wedge the front and rear of the innersole.

I'm thinking of measuring how far my heel lifts before my tendon is straight and using that.........just want to make the boot last.

Seeing a physio soon and seen a podiatrist about issues that I think are linked to poor biometric alignment.

I've read other threads on here and will be watching this one closely.

Hi,

In the last few years I have found that I have been chasing my pronation issue and it seemingly kept getting worse then I would be going in the other direction and having to removing some inside posting!

At that point I was posting both boots equally and never knew if I was going too far with the posting, but when it worked it was great. With all this movement, up and down in the boot, I felt that I was making the boot bend inward giving rise to more pronation and breakdown, but on this I am not exactly sure. What I did feel though was sore heels from now improper fitting boots!

A few years prior to this when I was first started having issues a LHS person promised he could help me. I had just bought a good pair of Bauer X60s (2009?) and I believe the top of the line back then. He promised that he could help me and bring my new skates to him before I do anything with them. 

Once at the LHS I put on my Bauer X60s with lose laces and stood on plastic with this guy looking at my stance, first some the side then from the back.

Right away he said that I was leaning back in my skates and I needed a forward pitch as well he had me pull up my pant legs so he could look at my calf muscles, while in the skates. He said to loosen me to my laces a bit and put my hands on my knees and bend into a hockey stance with my hands over my toes. With that one thing showed him that I was pronating on the right. He said that if your tendon guard does not follow the calf muscle and goes inwards you are pronating, to the outside means you are supination. 

All you have to do is watch any NHL game on TV as it is up close and you will see that the tendon guard follows the calf always. So, my right tendon guard was leaning towards my left leg. With this he added 3 mm to my heels to give me a better pitch and so that a lot of blade would not be lost by additional profiling and also added 3 mm to the lateral sides (not medial as is done inside of the boot) of my right boot between my outsole and the holder, front and back. This is all he did, but when I arrived home I got on the ice as fast as I could and my skating was excellent, this guy fixed my problem and he knew what he was doing!

Jump ahead a year or two and I was having problems again, no longer falling backwards do to the pitch, but I was pronating more on my right foot and decided to get orthotics. This did work, but then I was getting worse again and now my left lef was showing pronation and more orthotics were made and worked well for a time.

Over all this time and all the podiatrists and chiropractors I saw, none felt I had much of a “arch” problem at all. They were just looking at my arch and yes, I could fit some fingers under my arches not like some that their feet are literally flat on the floor. I had even wetted my feet and stood on some time of thin cardboard showing a normal arch as well I have photos of the Dr. Scholl’s stand on “electronic  device” all showing normal arches. How is this possible.

It was only about a month ago that I was getting really frustrated about my game as to knowing what I could do as opposed to what I am doing by all my own corrections.

I took phots of my Achilles’ tendons from the rear and I was shocked, in that my tendons were quite bent inward causing my pronation and leading me to believe that I am not a yo-yo of back and forth pronation, but I was just getting worse over time. Now I knew I had to add more, but by now I was posting only on the inside and going so high 

5 or 6 years ago I did have orthotics made and I was told it was relatively minor in the right, but needed correction and it worked so that is why I stuck with the inside posting.

My problem appeared to be that my problem really was ongoing pronation! At least I know I was not crazy and now needed some help moving my holders medially and using the old Graf T-bolts I could loosen the holders and insert my own wedges on the lateral sides of both skates.

Last Thursday I was the ice for first the first time using this method (using only 1.5 mm wedges as I already have the holders shifted medially) and I was elated! For the first time in years I could feel that each blade of the skates were squarely on the ice and not like what I was saddled with. I always had the feeling that one edge was digging in, now I just can’t wait to get get back to my old game.

Now if you have a problem with worsening pronation you can just insert a slightly thicker wedge in a minute or so.

I hope this helps!

Alan

Edited by smu
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On 17/03/2018 at 4:37 PM, smu said:

Hi,

In the last few years I have found that I have been chasing my pronation issue and it seemingly kept getting worse then I would be going in the other direction and having to removing some inside posting!

At that point I was posting both boots equally and never knew if I was going too far with the posting, but when it worked it was great. With all this movement, up and down in the boot, I felt that I was making the boot bend inward giving rise to more pronation and breakdown, but on this I am not exactly sure. What I did feel though was sore heels from now improper fitting boots!

A few years prior to this when I was first started having issues a LHS person promised he could help me. I had just bought a good pair of Bauer X60s (2009?) and I believe the top of the line back then. He promised that he could help me and bring my new skates to him before I do anything with them. 

Once at the LHS I put on my Bauer X60s with lose laces and stood on plastic with this guy looking at my stance, first some the side then from the back.

Right away he said that I was leaning back in my skates and I needed a forward pitch as well he had me pull up my pant legs so he could look at my calf muscles, while in the skates. He said to loosen me to my laces a bit and put my hands on my knees and bend into a hockey stance with my hands over my toes. With that one thing showed him that I was pronating on the right. He said that if your tendon guard does not follow the calf muscle and goes inwards you are pronating, to the outside means you are supination. 

All you have to do is watch any NHL game on TV as it is up close and you will see that the tendon guard follows the calf always. So, my right tendon guard was leaning towards my left leg. With this he added 3 mm to my heels to give me a better pitch and so that a lot of blade would not be lost by additional profiling and also added 3 mm to the lateral sides (not medial as is done inside of the boot) of my right boot between my outsole and the holder, front and back. This is all he did, but when I arrived home I got on the ice as fast as I could and my skating was excellent, this guy fixed my problem and he knew what he was doing!

Jump ahead a year or two and I was having problems again, no longer falling backwards do to the pitch, but I was pronating more on my right foot and decided to get orthotics. This did work, but then I was getting worse again and now my left lef was showing pronation and more orthotics were made and worked well for a time.

Over all this time and all the podiatrists and chiropractors I saw, none felt I had much of a “arch” problem at all. They were just looking at my arch and yes, I could fit some fingers under my arches not like some that their feet are literally flat on the floor. I had even wetted my feet and stood on some time of thin cardboard showing a normal arch as well I have photos of the Dr. Scholl’s stand on “electronic  device” all showing normal arches. How is this possible.

It was only about a month ago that I was getting really frustrated about my game as to knowing what I could do as opposed to what I am doing by all my own corrections.

I took phots of my Achilles’ tendons from the rear and I was shocked, in that my tendons were quite bent inward causing my pronation and leading me to believe that I am not a yo-yo of back and forth pronation, but I was just getting worse over time. Now I knew I had to add more, but by now I was posting only on the inside and going so high 

5 or 6 years ago I did have orthotics made and I was told it was relatively minor in the right, but needed correction and it worked so that is why I stuck with the inside posting.

My problem appeared to be that my problem really was ongoing pronation! At least I know I was not crazy and now needed some help moving my holders medially and using the old Graf T-bolts I could loosen the holders and insert my own wedges on the lateral sides of both skates.

Last Thursday I was the ice for first the first time using this method (using only 1.5 mm wedges as I already have the holders shifted medially) and I was elated! For the first time in years I could feel that each blade of the skates were squarely on the ice and not like what I was saddled with. I always had the feeling that one edge was digging in, now I just can’t wait to get get back to my old game.

Now if you have a problem with worsening pronation you can just insert a slightly thicker wedge in a minute or so.

I hope this helps!

Alan

Great detail. What I got from that is that putting a wedge between the boot and holder solved the problem?

Do you still use orthotics?

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On 15/03/2018 at 8:53 AM, Playmakersedge said:

With what I am talking about completed with the rig encased in urethane no one will know  you have it .    

I think the problem is so pronounced now because of the skate being so much stiffer and the range of motion so little  .     If you like I can make up and install the units for you .   I think this kind of stuff is fun 

I would be up for giving it a go but being in the UK I can't get it done. 

I don't know how that would help with the position my ankle, tendon and calf alignment. 

It seems a lot of people's problems are with edges but as I'm not playing ice anymore I don't recognise that I'm having that problem.

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6 hours ago, skinni44 said:

Great detail. What I got from that is that putting a wedge between the boot and holder solved the problem?

Do you still use orthotics?

You wedge the outside of the boot between the holder and the boot. You need to wedge the front and back to make sure the foot remains on a level plane unless you have some other issue like a twist in the heel or ankle. Orthotics are good to use as they help the base of your foot stay in the correct shape but they need to be orthotics designed for hockey skates. Most orthotics have a reasonably thick heel base, this lifts the heel out of the skate's heel pocket so your heel lock is affected and you can have volume issues.

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On 19/03/2018 at 10:40 PM, Vet88 said:

You wedge the outside of the boot between the holder and the boot. You need to wedge the front and back to make sure the foot remains on a level plane unless you have some other issue like a twist in the heel or ankle. Orthotics are good to use as they help the base of your foot stay in the correct shape but they need to be orthotics designed for hockey skates. Most orthotics have a reasonably thick heel base, this lifts the heel out of the skate's heel pocket so your heel lock is affected and you can have volume issues.

Yea, i meant about the wedge for the pitch. Did that solve the pronation?

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4 hours ago, skinni44 said:

Yea, i meant about the wedge for the pitch. Did that solve the pronation?

Actually wedging for pitch does help a little for pronation. As weight gets transferred towards the front of the foot any pronation you have gets reduced, the heel naturally straightens out. But the 1mm - 3mm lift you typically put in a hockey skate will not make that much difference if your pronation is more than a degree or two.

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On 3/19/2018 at 12:32 PM, skinni44 said:

Great detail. What I got from that is that putting a wedge between the boot and holder solved the problem?

Do you still use orthotics?

I am trying to catch up on posts and I know this on is out of order, but to answer the question if you have someone do it right, wedging the back and front of the holder will will correct a pronation issue, but you have to experiment with the thickness. I was able to have my LHS to put t-nuts like the Graf skate in. 4 fron and 4 back and with a Torx screwdriver you can take your holders off at anytime and change the thickness. My problem is that both my feet pronate at different amounts which makes it more than twice as hard as doing one. But, it does work!

Alan S.

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