Business Travel Advice, Tips, etc.?

[Jason Harris 31]

It's possible it wouldn't have been the right job for you, and maybe that was floating around your cranium irrespective of their tardiness in replying, but becoming irritated because you suffered the "hurry up and wait" syndrome -- something that happens every day in the corporate world -- might be setting an impossibly high standard for future job opportunities.

[McDugan 89]

I don't think that expecting a high degree of promptness under these circumstances equates to expecting that same degree of promptness in every aspect of day-to-day business.

Besides that distinction though, what else should one expect? I wouldn't have expected a quick reply if I hadn't been told how important it would be to look at the info first thing.

Anyway, my irritation stemmed from having come to an understanding and then being told - in what I would describe as a stern, maybe borderline hostile/irate manner - that the terms of employment were contradictory to that understanding. The non-reply simply added to it.

[BenderHockey 127]

I have to agree with Jason. Just as you had to take time and think about whether or not the company would be the right fit for you, shouldn't they be afforded the right to take their time and decide about whether they feel you would be a good fit for them? I certainly don't decide personnell decisions in a day or two, I weigh all the options.

[McDugan 89]

Of course they should, and that's why they had me for two interviews and offered me the job a week after my second interview.

[Chadd 916]

Honestly, they sound like a few places I worked over the years. Unwritten rule out of nowhere and based on the whim of the owner, give us info ASAP so we can make a decision, too busy to get back to you for at least a day, act surprised when you expect the same level of courtesy/respect that they demand from you. Unfortunately, those games occur in a lot of companies. For some people it's more about control and "winning" at dominance games, than anything else.

Working contracting gigs for a number of years, I learned to spot a lot of warnings signs pretty quickly. It prevented me from taking a couple jobs I later learned that I would have hated.

[wrangler 157]

The "ASAP" request sounds normal, from someone the boss asked to get something, and it's separate from the processing time for the information received, which occurs at the boss's convenience. It's only professional, however, to consider the perceptions of the candidate, and to give the best sense possible of the timeline.

[Jason Harris 31]

Again, I don't know whether this would have been the right job for you. Adding that much additional income to the family could lead to a much more comfortable lifestyle; conversely, that much travel with young kids could lead to loneliness for you on the road and resentment from your wife for the additional burdens at home.

Please pardon me if I'm assuming you're somewhat younger in your career, but the most important advice I could give you about the situation you described is, "You just don't know."

You became irritated by their lack of promptness after they pressed you for information ASAP. But who knows why she couldn't even find the time to give you a courteous, "We're still thinking about it," let alone a, "Okay, let's go ahead?" Maybe their largest customer just told them they were going stop doing business with them, so the whole company was in lockdown to try to keep the business. Maybe their biggest tradeshow is coming up in ten days and they're scrambling to finish preparations. Maybe her boss was sick, so she had to cover that person's responsibilities.

You just don't know.

Because of that, I'd advise on giving people at least a second strike and maybe three.

[McDugan 89]

Again, I don't know whether this would have been the right job for you.

Please pardon me if I'm assuming you're somewhat younger in your career, but the most important advice I could give you about the situation you described is, "You just don't know."

It became very clear that it wouldn't have been right for me - that's why I turned it down. Not sure what point you're making there.

Young? Depends on your perspective, I guess... im right on the cusp. I'm 33, with about 10 years of post-college work experience and a master's degree. I don't know why that's relevant, really.

I understand the point you're making, and I can't possibly know exactly what was going on in their office, but I have a pretty good idea. You seem to be reading pretty far past what actually happened and assuming more than my age.

[Jason Harris 31]

I guess I was trying to find the words to very politely say, "I think you over reacted," because you still could have allowed it to play out to the point where they reconfirmed their desire to hire you, then determined that the job itself wouldn't have worked out. But if I read your words correctly, your reaction was almost like those of a young couple after their first date. One really wanted a call by Tuesday, but when it came on Thursday, the recipient no longer wanted to pursue a relationship because the tardiness expressed a lack of equal desire.

That's an unrealistic expectation of what sounded like the corporate world, and, from an outsider who has no bearing on anything, I'm worried you may have thrown away a good opportunity (accepting that even good jobs have their pitfalls) for the wrong reason.

I'm not trying to rub anything in. I was giving advice to what I thought might have been a younger person that you had set an unrealistically high bar of your expectations of them, and if you keep the bar that high, you're going to limit your opportunities in life.

Forgive me regarding your age, but it's hard to know how old each of us are here. I remember the first month I came here and someone had a "Yippee!" thread that opened to "It's my birthday today -- I'm 14!"

[wrangler 157]

I got the impression that the delay in contact was just one more item to mention, and didn't really affect the decision, just precipitated it. I thought that the decision essentially made itself, with the change regarding strictness of work hours.

[MThockeydad 469]

Sounds like you dodged a bullet. I suspect the "leave early a few minutes" was less Kenny's concern than it was Nicole's.
I get the sense she would be a supervisor who wouldn't be very protective of her underlings. I.e. she'd throw you under the bus if she needed to.

[Trooper 8]

Company culture is one of the most important things to consider in a job. Them waffling over someone leaving 10 minutes early should have been a huge red flag.

[IPv6Freely 2083]

Yup. Agreed. Generally at an interview I sit down and say "tell me why I want to work for you" (not literally, but that's the direction of the conversation). Something like that, I'd be walking out pretty quickly.

[Chadd 916]

Company culture is one of the most important things to consider in a job. Them waffling over someone leaving 10 minutes early should have been a huge red flag.

More than once over the years I have decided that I had no desire to work for someone interviewing me. At that point the interview can either get a lot more frustrating, or a lot more fun.

[Morten 2]

That's why I dont like job interviews. In my language its called a jobconverse, which is what it should be.

[Jason Harris 31]

That's because too many interviews are structured to determine who is NOT right for the position versus who is. Too many gotcha questions.

"What would you say is your biggest weakness?"

"What would you do if a coworker did this?"

"What would your previous employers say about you?"

"How do you respond to authority?"

[Chadd 916]

That's because too many interviews are structured to determine who is NOT right for the position versus who is. Too many gotcha questions.

"What would you say is your biggest weakness?"

"What would you do if a coworker did this?"

"What would your previous employers say about you?"

"How do you respond to authority?"

You also now have companies that are trying to be too cute with their questions.

There are 105 people on a ship that is sinking. You can fit three people and two pets in your canoe and it takes 20 minutes to get to shore. How many grande lattes would it take to float the ship?

[IPv6Freely 2083]

My answer would be "if you're going to be this ridiculous during the interview, I can't even imagine what it'd be like to work here. Nice to meet you, goodbye."

[Trooper 8]

Honestly, you can tell if someone has the skillset in relatively short order. What we talk about after interviewing someone as much as the skills is if they would be a good fit in the group. Would you want to come to work every day and deal with that person? What if you had to travel for a week with them?

[Jason Harris 31]

Chadd, that reminds me of a great story my buddy told me.

They were camping with three other couples and someone brought The Book Of Questions, which are ethical quandaries. One question was "You and your spouse are being held captive. You're in a room with two buttons; the button on the left will blow up you, while the button on the right will blow up your spouse. You are forced to push a button. Which one do you push?"

They came around to my friend, whose wife was beaming, because his ethics are as good as I know.

"I would push the button to kill Dana. And then I would dedicate my life to tracking down the bastards that did that to us!"

[notquitedeadyet 13]

I gotta agree with most of Jason's points. But the real question to me is how hard it would be to get back in the original field if things didn't work out.

It seems to me if there is an opportunity to learn a new skill & start at a pay rate 1 1/2 times what I'm currently making, I owe it to myself & family to at least give it a fair chance. That kind of opportunity just doesn't come often in today's work environment. I'm not sure you can really know the dynamics of the situation there without actually being there. Even if it didn't work out, you've now got that on your resume, & you've made all those new contacts, & been exposed to other positions in a field that apparently pays considerably better than the current one.

Again, the big question is what is there to loose?

Also wondering what the FIL thinks of the decision.

[Chadd 916]

My answer would be "if you're going to be this ridiculous during the interview, I can't even imagine what it'd be like to work here. Nice to meet you, goodbye."

"Unless you're going to pay me like a google or microsoft executive, please don't quiz me like one"

[IPv6Freely 2083]

Hah yes, exactly.

[Morten 2]

I gotta agree with most of Jason's points. But the real question to me is how hard it would be to get back in the original field if things didn't work out.

It seems to me if there is an opportunity to learn a new skill & start at a pay rate 1 1/2 times what I'm currently making, I owe it to myself & family to at least give it a fair chance. That kind of opportunity just doesn't come often in today's work environment. I'm not sure you can really know the dynamics of the situation there without actually being there. Even if it didn't work out, you've now got that on your resume, & you've made all those new contacts, & been exposed to other positions in a field that apparently pays considerably better than the current one.

Again, the big question is what is there to loose?

Also wondering what the FIL thinks of the decision.

I have change jobs often, also to new fields. It is all about attitude, willingness to learn, strive and beeing humble, also some seeing prospect in you and your abilities.

You are also going to "feel", if it is going in the wrong direction!

Go for it, I would and have!!

[McDugan 89]

I gotta agree with most of Jason's points. But the real question to me is how hard it would be to get back in the original field if things didn't work out.

It seems to me if there is an opportunity to learn a new skill & start at a pay rate 1 1/2 times what I'm currently making, I owe it to myself & family to at least give it a fair chance. That kind of opportunity just doesn't come often in today's work environment. I'm not sure you can really know the dynamics of the situation there without actually being there. Even if it didn't work out, you've now got that on your resume, & you've made all those new contacts, & been exposed to other positions in a field that apparently pays considerably better than the current one.

Again, the big question is what is there to loose?

Also wondering what the FIL thinks of the decision.

1. It would be very hard to get back into my current field, unless I were willing to relocate, which just isn't an option. The music/arts community in any given city is only so large, and I'm in the awkward position of being overqualified for a lot of jobs but not qualified (at least on paper) for executive-level jobs yet. And arts organizations are small, so there are only so many of any kind of job. If I were in NYC, it would be a different story, but if I were in NYC, the sales job would never have been a possibility.

2. To answer your "What is there to lose" question - well, that was how I felt, until I felt like I had been lied to over the course of the interview process. I would have been OK with being told upfront that this is how things are. You come at 9, you leave at 5. No exceptions, ever. That would have been a hard decision to make, and I still very likely would have decided that that company culture wasn't right for me, or that I value having the opportunity to do professional singing too much to sacrifice it in order to take this job. BUT I was asked about the singing that I do, I described the typical schedule that it follows, and I was told, it sounded like no problem. A week later, I was offered the job and told, "... but you need to understand that you work 9-5 and we can't have people coming and going." It was only at that point that I was told that this guy they fired who had become "such a nightmare" had been leaving 10 minutes early twice a week (which I personally feel is a pretty minimal amount of time - especially to be making up, not missing entirely). I turned the job down because, after being given two conflicting stories with regard to the single most important and most covered point of discussion in the entire interview process, I didn't feel as if I could possibly trust anything else I was or wasn't being told.

It just didn't make sense to leave behind the 10 years of experience i've built up working in arts production and administration in order to do something I find less interesting and fulfilling just for the money, when it meant giving up something I do both for fun and for pay.

3. My FIL was fully supportive of my decision, and was just as shocked as I was with the way things were turned around at the end. Especially because (and I didn't even know this until after it all happened) he told his friend when they first talked that he thought I'd be interested -but - that he was sure I wouldn't take the job if it meant having to give up doing the singing work that I do.