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totalchaos

Skate Profiling: pros and cons?

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I'm finally going to be getting new skates with in the next few weeks. I've been skating in 25 year old super tacks and it's just time to replace them. I'm getting the new Reebok 28k as soon as my LHS gets them in. I've been reading a lot lately about profiling and thought I'd give it a shot in my new skates. So I contacted no icing and they sent me a questionnaire about my skating style and what not so I filled it out and sent it back. They replied back with what should work best for me. They first suggest an fbv 90/75 and then a combination radius of 8/13' with a medium forward pitch. I was just wondering if anyone else has tried a combo radius and if so what are your thoughts on it. Even if you dont have it yourself but have thoughts on it I'd appreciate any feedback I can get.

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I have a fundamental issue with those types of "recommendations."

I'd rather have the skater skate in them bone stock because I know what is on the skate then. After a few sessions, the skater comes back to me and we talk about how the skate was and go from there. Skates vary from brand to brand in terms of radius and boot pitch, and something that works on skate A will not work on skate B, not to mention that in some cases, a player goes up or even down a holder size.

What you find with places that do it the other way (my direct local competitor is a prime example of this) is that they end up giving everyone the same thing, regardless of the feedback given. Then there's no adjustments done because hey, they're profiled, right? And I admit, I probably don't have everyone come back after I tell them that, but sorry - I'm not going to take your money just for the sake of it - I want to tune the skate to you.

The other pet peeve is the whole weight and position thing. We're not skating straight lines or going around in circles - instead of locking him into a long or short radius, shouldn't we be more concerned with giving them something in which they can tackle anything on the ice without loss of confidence? Gotta love those 13' on a size 11Y skate because "it'll make you faster" jobs...

Especially since you haven't skated in them yet, wouldn't it be a good idea to give it a test drive before it's tuned?

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I never had a radius(or FBV) before around 2 weeks ago, I went up and talked to jimmy, and I got an 8/12 Med, with 100/50 FBV.

After a couple of games, and some stick and puck, I find the glide much better, and I feel I can maneuver better.

I went to public skate the next day, figuring I may have to get used to the changes, but had no issue at all immediately.

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No offence to No-Icing but I agree with JR 100% on this. I watch players skates measure what they have now before even suggesting changing anything. Sometimes the profile is fine but they could use a little more pitch. I would do as JR suggests and try them first. It would be easy to explain the what the other profile would do for you after you have tried them. Even after you have tried them maybe re-do the survey as you may have changed some of your thoughts?

My 2 cents.

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Well I'm definitely going to try them out before ordering the extra steel and having them profiled. I guess my main question exists because I was told by my LHS that they don't ever believe in changing the stock radius because it should be the perfect setup for that skate. Should I try the fbv on the initial sharpening or just get a normal sharpening and go from there. My only dilemma will be if I do need profiling I'm going to have to send them out because there aren't any good profilers near me

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Well I'm definitely going to try them out before ordering the extra steel and having them profiled. I guess my main question exists because I was told by my LHS that they don't ever believe in changing the stock radius because it should be the perfect setup for that skate. Should I try the fbv on the initial sharpening or just get a normal sharpening and go from there. My only dilemma will be if I do need profiling I'm going to have to send them out because there aren't any good profilers near me

The stock Radius was determined by someone that doesn't even know you, or how you skate, and they may not even be the same.

Do you even have a shop around you that does FBV? I like it myself.

otg and JR have a point regarding trying the skates 1st, in an ideal world the profile would be put on, and you'd try them out immediately, and adjust if you wanted to change something.

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+1 with JR .

I got my new skates and felt a lot needed to be changed and I filled out the profile immediately. I let it sit and skated on them with the only change being a shallower hollow, which I needed to begin with, and half the "problems" I had with the skate are gone. A lot of the answers I gave I changed as well and I'm not compensating for the skate either I'm playing well. There is also the problem that some people have of how they imagine themselves, sometimes it takes some deep thought and honesty to give yourself a real review.

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Profiling your skates is definitely not a once and done deal. When I did it the first time, it took 3 trips to get it dialed in. When my skate guy (Seymore at Seymore's Skate Lab in Pierrefonds, QC) first mentioned profiling my skates, I thought why not. After discussing it for about 30min we decided to put an 11' radius on a new set of Step Steel and a 13' radius on my existing stock steel. I skated a couple times on both and determined that the 13' was just not right and that the 11' was definitely the right way to go but just need to be tweeked a little more. When I took my skates back in, we had another 30min conversation of both the 13' and 11' profiles,and he adjusted both (I believe he did a +1 FWD Pitch on the 13' and simply shaved a little off the toe of the 11' Step Steel). After a few more skates with both setups and more discussions when I went back, we determined that the 13' just wasn't going to work and that a slight pitch fwd on the 11' was needed. This entire process took about 2 months. In the end, he matched my old steel to the step steel and now I can go back and forth between steels and not notice a difference.

The bottom line is that profiling is more of a fine tuning to the individual than a one size fits all. You can certainly try what they are suggesting but don't be surprised if you feel like it's the worst setup you've ever had.

T

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Well I'm definitely going to try them out before ordering the extra steel and having them profiled. I guess my main question exists because I was told by my LHS that they don't ever believe in changing the stock radius because it should be the perfect setup for that skate. Should I try the fbv on the initial sharpening or just get a normal sharpening and go from there. My only dilemma will be if I do need profiling I'm going to have to send them out because there aren't any good profilers near me

If you've never skated on FBV, I would not suggest trying it the first time on new skates. FBV feels quite different than a ROH until you're used to it. You may mistake difficulty adjusting to FBV for a problem with your new skates. My suggestion is to break in the new skates on ROH until you've got them dialed in, then try making the switch to FBV. Alternatively, try FBV on you're existing skates to see if you like it. Just my 2 cents.

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I was told by my LHS that they don't ever believe in changing the stock radius because it should be the perfect setup for that skate.

That is so wrong.

If NHL players on the same skate and holder, use many different profiles,what does that tell you?

There are many different strides, postures, leg lengths etcetera. It makes no sense that one profile is the best answer for everyone. Does it make sense to you that someone who skates with a very upright stance should use the same profile as a player that bends forward a the waist? How about a small quick-footed dipsy doodler versus a long striding tall guy?

The profile is for the skater. The particular skate is simply the starting point.

If there was a "best profile" and pitch for everyone, all of the brands would be designed with all of the characteristics - profile, pitch, flex - identically.

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In fairness to NoIcing, their questionnaire asks what you like/dislike about your current skates.

IMHO, the OP needs to skate his new skates, rather than filling out the questionnaire based on his experience with his super tacks and then ordering a profile on unskated 28k's. Then, after a month or two on the 28k's, fill out the questionnaire again.

NoIcing suggested 100/50, 8/14, medium forward for me. I sent them back for sharpening last week and then had some unexpected ice time come up and threw my old steel back on. I was immediately back on my heels without the forward pitch and slower without the combo radius.

You can definitely feel if it's working or not if you have 2 sets of steel and can go back to your old ones!

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Jordan I totally agree with you and I was surprised they said that. Especially since they are the biggest and well known shop around. I've been going to them for over 30 years for all my hockey needs and they have always been well educated in every aspect of the game.

MT I am planning on doing what you suggested and I am going to have 2 sets of steel so I will be able to compare the 2 once I determine if I need to go to a custom profile

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I share JR's opinion. While I am no expert on skates, bicycle positioning is also very much something that MUST be done over a series of visits to the fitter. From my experiences of doing anything by mail, the chances of the profiling working 100% out of the box the first time is probably slim and could result in considerable frustration.

I had taken several classes on fitting bicycles and I have found that it takes several visits to get it dialled. I once attended an event with the inventor of a fitting/positioning system and several riders who had this person fit them personally either migrated back to their old positions or needed some "in-between" positioning help. He flew back home and other people or myself would help adjust things. Then there were several that felt instantly more comfortable and needed no further assistance.

To summarise- I think it's better to have a local sharpener profile your skates if at all possible.

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I used to be fortunate when I worked in a rink-based store; I would set an appointment with the skater and run them through drills.

Now, I have to rely on the customer. But yes...there's a lot of people who can't point out the flaws in their skating ability.

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My skating coach uses her iPad in video mode to show you what you're doing wrong. As I have said for years and years- a picture is worth a thousand words. Video would be the ultimate communicator.

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I used to be fortunate when I worked in a rink-based store; I would set an appointment with the skater and run them through drills.

Now, I have to rely on the customer. But yes...there's a lot of people who can't point out the flaws in their skating ability.

before replaceable runners, profiling needed exactly what JR suggests, and is still the best way to go.

BITD, My skates were always worked on by either some guys at South Mtn Arena (West Orange NJ) or a rink in Paramus NJ, and it was a trial process in getting them well tuned. Also always had 2 pr of skates, identically tuned, for those road trips and times when you just couldn't have a sharpen done. Replaceable runners are a very cool thing.

I'd agree that best is If a good local tech, is willing to work with 'you' (global you) to find that perfect tune.

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I would love to have a good local sharpener to work with but the only one around me that does profiling has a horrible reputation so I won't go there. I live in central CT and I've always gone to South Windsor but they are the ones that said they don't believe in profiling. So if anyone knows of a place in CT that is good let me know

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I know when I was a kid there was a very reputable local skate sharpener/profilier who was the same way. When I was a peewee he came and watched a practice and game and took notes on every kid on our team and then did a custom profile for each. Seems like there is an opportunity for a custom profile service that uses customer submitted video. With the amount people spend on skates, I'd imagine there are many out there willing to pay for a premium service like that to get a bit more out of their investment.

I used to be fortunate when I worked in a rink-based store; I would set an appointment with the skater and run them through drills.

Now, I have to rely on the customer. But yes...there's a lot of people who can't point out the flaws in their skating ability.

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I share JR's opinion. While I am no expert on skates, bicycle positioning is also very much something that MUST be done over a series of visits to the fitter. From my experiences of doing anything by mail, the chances of the profiling working 100% out of the box the first time is probably slim and could result in considerable frustration.

I had taken several classes on fitting bicycles and I have found that it takes several visits to get it dialled. I once attended an event with the inventor of a fitting/positioning system and several riders who had this person fit them personally either migrated back to their old positions or needed some "in-between" positioning help. He flew back home and other people or myself would help adjust things. Then there were several that felt instantly more comfortable and needed no further assistance.

To summarise- I think it's better to have a local sharpener profile your skates if at all possible.

We do quite a bit of profiling by mail, and in reality it's just the opposite of what you say. We have very few who do not like our profiles better than what they had. I'd say less than a handful out of every 1000 do not like what we initially select. But that's no problem either because we offer free adjustment and one is usually all that's needed after we get their feedback to fine tune their profile. We do a lot of communication with our customers to make sure their experience is pleasant and not frustrating. Obviously, being able to watch a skater is good, but when you live in Alabama and no one there does profiling, there are certainly other ways to do it correctly. We do them every day, quite accurately I might add. While I have done profiles on many after observing them skate, that is no guaranty you are going to nail a radius profile for them first time, every time, either.

The importance with profiles is first to get the skates matching with each other, radius, balance, pivot point and pitch. After that, fine tuning to get the maximum performance (physics) out of the blade, while matching it to the skill and preferences of the skater, that's the key, and that takes an experienced radius technician, not just someone who can operate a machine. IMO skating on a factory radius is like not being able to pick out a stick with a the curve, lie, flex, kick point, geometry and grip that you like. How many skaters do you know who would be happy with a generic factory stick? Not many, but you wouldn't believe how many of those same picky stick owners will skate on a factory radius. Doesn't make sense.

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We do quite a bit of profiling by mail, and in reality it's just the opposite of what you say. We have very few who do not like our profiles better than what they had. I'd say less than a handful out of every 1000 do not like what we initially select. But that's no problem either because we offer free adjustment and one is usually all that's needed after we get their feedback to fine tune their profile. We do a lot of communication with our customers to make sure their experience is pleasant and not frustrating. Obviously, being able to watch a skater is good, but when you live in Alabama and no one there does profiling, there are certainly other ways to do it correctly. We do them every day, quite accurately I might add. While I have done profiles on many after observing them skate, that is no guaranty you are going to nail a radius profile for them first time, every time, either.

The importance with profiles is first to get the skates matching with each other, radius, balance, pivot point and pitch. After that, fine tuning to get the maximum performance (physics) out of the blade, while matching it to the skill and preferences of the skater, that's the key, and that takes an experienced radius technician, not just someone who can operate a machine. IMO skating on a factory radius is like not being able to pick out a stick with a the curve, lie, flex, kick point, geometry and grip that you like. How many skaters do you know who would be happy with a generic factory stick? Not many, but you wouldn't believe how many of those same picky stick owners will skate on a factory radius. Doesn't make sense.

I don't disagree with the last paragraph. I have compared many blades (as I have a few runners) and no two from a pair are the same depth! There is one guy at my rink that I go to and one I avoid for these reasons!!!

And as far as the first paragraph- sounds like you have a good record. I have found so many times that many things by mail can go well, too. I'm advocating going local if possible. Of course it's not always possible!

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I think a lot of people are happy if you just get in the ballpark and that can easily be done by asking a couple questions. However, that does not mean they have the best solution for them. It only means that it isn't the worst. Personally, I like to see someone skate so I can see if they have issues that they aren't recognizing.

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I think a lot of people are happy if you just get in the ballpark and that can easily be done by asking a couple questions. However, that does not mean they have the best solution for them. It only means that it isn't the worst. Personally, I like to see someone skate so I can see if they have issues that they aren't recognizing.

Exactly.

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We do quite a bit of profiling by mail, and in reality it's just the opposite of what you say. We have very few who do not like our profiles better than what they had. I'd say less than a handful out of every 1000 do not like what we initially select. But that's no problem either because we offer free adjustment and one is usually all that's needed after we get their feedback to fine tune their profile. We do a lot of communication with our customers to make sure their experience is pleasant and not frustrating. Obviously, being able to watch a skater is good, but when you live in Alabama and no one there does profiling, there are certainly other ways to do it correctly. We do them every day, quite accurately I might add. While I have done profiles on many after observing them skate, that is no guaranty you are going to nail a radius profile for them first time, every time, either.

The importance with profiles is first to get the skates matching with each other, radius, balance, pivot point and pitch. After that, fine tuning to get the maximum performance (physics) out of the blade, while matching it to the skill and preferences of the skater, that's the key, and that takes an experienced radius technician, not just someone who can operate a machine. IMO skating on a factory radius is like not being able to pick out a stick with a the curve, lie, flex, kick point, geometry and grip that you like. How many skaters do you know who would be happy with a generic factory stick? Not many, but you wouldn't believe how many of those same picky stick owners will skate on a factory radius. Doesn't make sense.

Jimmy,

No one once I do not think questions the high quality of work you do on a very consistant basis. However I am sure you would agree if you had the person and the skates in front of you it could end up being better all around.

The main reason I say this as I had a client were I was asked to go watch them and adjust the profile by a very well known skating coach that really knew what profiling was and what it does. I watched and made a slight adjustment and it was better for sure. BUT what was found out when examining things further is that the skate was A. broken down way to much because B. the skate was a size and a half to big. So we then changed the whole profile and added new blades because new skates for that weekend were out of the question. Also Superfeet were added as they suited another part of the issue and Stable 26 fit gear along with 12 MM in one side and 10 in the other.

The results? Was MVP of the tournament that weekend. Now playing in the OHL on a top team. Possibly a good chance to make the OHL Memorial Cup.

Now that was an extreme case and probably not a fare comparison but that is some of the additional thing's a good shop like No Icing could do if you could make it in to them. We just have to now figure out how to take all this expertise on the road!

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Nice Thread. I bought some used skates with a 8/13 profile (no additional pitch) and a 90/75 FBV from noicing. I like the FBV but honestly, I cant tell if I really like the 8/13 dual profile. After a couple skates and getting used to it I dont *dislike* it, but I'm not sure if its best for me.

I need to get a pair of Blacksteel for these skates within the next couple of months, and I will buy them from Noicing and get a profile. Can anyone recommend what type of things I should be trying to notice with my current profile to compare to what I would like going forward? I really dont know how to disseminate this stuff for myself.

We do quite a bit of profiling by mail, and in reality it's just the opposite of what you say. We have very few who do not like our profiles better than what they had. I'd say less than a handful out of every 1000 do not like what we initially select. But that's no problem either because we offer free adjustment and one is usually all that's needed after we get their feedback to fine tune their profile. We do a lot of communication with our customers to make sure their experience is pleasant and not frustrating. Obviously, being able to watch a skater is good, but when you live in Alabama and no one there does profiling, there are certainly other ways to do it correctly. We do them every day, quite accurately I might add. While I have done profiles on many after observing them skate, that is no guaranty you are going to nail a radius profile for them first time, every time, either.

Thats good to know, I didn't know that was included in the service. Question for you: Of the ~4 people I know that sent the form to you guys to get a custom profile, you recommended 8/13 to all of them, and from what I have read on the internet, it seems like you recommend that to a lot of people. (Of course, its just my perception from reading threads and trying to do research, but using the word 'majority' would fit). Is this true, and if so, what is the reason for this?

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Seems like it. They recommended 8/12 for me and im considering 8/13 after having skated a season with the 8/12. Id like to hear what they tell you.

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