Virginia Tech STAR rating system being developed for hockey helmets

[chippa13 1844]

Here is the other thing. The research has yet to go through peer review but the gist is still making headlines. Regardless of how the research fares after scrutiny the "damage" has been done.

[minnsy 15]

isn't that what most people have agreed upon in most of the posts above? And Academia is not immune to capitalism so don't try and argue that for even a second. In todays world its hard to understand the motives when most of the opinions are easily for sale, thats all thats being said.

Never gonna claim that academia is free from capitalism. But unless we at least make an attempt to objectively evaluate the finding and test results, we're not doing anyone any favors here.

Let us know what you find!

Thanks. I will some reading over the next few days. I hope others try to look deeper too.

A cause for concern from me on first pass over the publications: They start with an evaluation of baseball catcher's helmets. If they use same/similar testing protocols on hockey helmets to evaluate safety, I'd be very suspicious of there overall findings in regards to hockey. Baseball impact is very different than hockey dangers.

[flip12 698]

Atheletes have gotten to big and too strong for this type of stuff to be avoidable. Chris Borland from the 49ers RT'd something from neil degrasse tyson saying that a 250lb player moving at like 10-15mph has the same velocity as a bullet (SOMETHING LIKE THAT)... Athletic training has gotten TO GOOD!!

I think maybe you meant the same momentum as a fired bullet. Velocity is just velocity: rate of distance moved over the time interval chosen (measured in miles per hour, meters per second, etc.). The momentum thing is true, and an unintuitive fact right out of Newton's mechanical laws, "every action has an equal and opposite reaction." But, that also means that the kickback force of a gun is the same as accelerating force causing the bullet to move, which just shows, absorbing the momentum of the bullet is not the same experience as absorbing that of the gun's kickback. Not that I want to get hit by either a fired bullet or a retired Borland, but those two are also not the same experience. The point is good though. There is a lot more force at play in today's contact sports where players are both bigger and faster than they were in the past. Seriously, I would not want to play against Dustin Byfuglien. He flicks opponents off like toys. Hella fun to watch him do that though. Anyway, bigger+faster just isn't the whole story: medicine has also improved, and part of the reason why there seem to be way more concussions is because it's much better understood that there's something serious going on in these instances of head trauma. The same thing can be said for PTSD, for instance.

Everyone is making great points. Yes, journalism is flawed, peer-reviewed research is flawed, and those two pools don't really mingle all that happily (my wife is doing her Ph.D and tells me about frustrations just like the problems with this case: journalists just want a simple truth, as sexy as possible, controversial is a big plus, to plug into their story that has to get in and out of their editors' and readers' faces as enjoyably and as quickly as possible. On the other hand, researchers are often more aware of or engaged with the nuances of their area of expertise, which is literally their job). If we can get out on the other side of this development, having a new voice in assessing helmet safety, maybe we can have improved protection a few years down the road. But there are certainly going to be some rotten and broken eggs along the way. That's just life.

Edited March 30, 2015 by flip12

[Cove 38]

dont correct my horrible understanding of science......

[IW Team - Chase 184]

dont correct my horrible understanding of science......

Lol. Here's what Borland retweeted "Just an FYI: A 250 lb football player, running 15 mph, has more kinetic energy than a bullet fired from an AK-47 rifle.”

[flip12 698]

dont correct my horrible understanding of science......

I wasn't trying to pick on you, but didn't want to let a potential misunderstanding continue to brew...it's quick for someone to misread, "getting hit by Borland is like getting shot by a bullet!" In a way that statement could be true, but it may not be the way people think at first. It was mostly the medical thing that I think is important for us all to remember. We're getting better at treating ourselves. Improved research and design is part of that and there are bound to be these storms along the way. I just happen to have that experience of seeing the two sides of publishing new knowledge talking at cross purposes, so this morass is familiar.

Edited March 30, 2015 by flip12

[Chadd 916]

HECC and CSA, to the best of my knowledge, have never published any of the actual numbers from their testing. When combined with the influence of the manufacturers on the board, that leaves some people with a lot of questions. Secrecy creates doubt, it's that simple.

I hope it's ok for me to disclose this, as it was pretty common knowledge in the industry a couple years ago. Easton had a helmet in the works that was based on the RIddell football helmet that got a five star rating, but it never made it to market. It was large and heavy, so I had concerns about increased neck and whiplash type injuries with it.

I think having an independent agency doing the testing is a good thing and I think publishing the methodology and results is a great thing. I also think the video segment was borderline criminal in the way that it is trying to scare parents.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

When combined with the influence of the manufacturers on the board, that leaves some people with a lot of questions. Secrecy creates doubt, it's that simple.

They have to be on the board. But there are way to many people that can out vote a change they wish to make if we all don't agree. I really do not appreciate your tone and saying that I would let a company influence if I think a product is unsafe.

[Ps12 11]

I think we are all waiting on more details on the testing protocol.

The results are very interesting. In Warrior's case, you have two helmets with the same shell but the difference is the absence of VN foam on the LTE, and thus got a lower rating.

That all being said, if VT outlines what would constitute a 5 star helmet and convey that back to the manufacturers, then this is a good thing. The more research, the better.

Although, this is going to be a rough time for retailers - we've already had inquiries on the 360 from customers in the past 3 hours.

That is interesting. And here i thought epp was an improvement over vn. Apparently the liner makes a huge difference as well as the shell. I wonder what makes the krown shell that much better in their tests.

I currently own a krown360 because its the only helmet that was comfortable. I have a very round head. Maybe their test dummy has a really round head. :D

I looked at other helmets. The ims 11 and reakt were rated higher for protection on a hockeystores website and the krown was lower ranked. Not sure how scientific that ranking was but it illustrates how easily swayed i can be as a consumer. Eventually i went for the best fit.

I had plans on getting a larger size 360 and placing the padding from unequal gyro in there. I wonder how every helmets ratings would be affected if they used that with their testing.

The best thing that can happen now is an improvement in helmet design.

This is the vt top rated helmet. Cant wait to see their actual tests to see what makes a helmet worthy of 5 stars.

http://www.riddell.com/riddell-speedflex-helmet.html

[Harkonnen87 10]

The easton helmet is interesting although it looks too heavy and cumbersome for use in our game. If you look at the models of football helmets that are rated as 5 stars a lot of them come with inflatable padding to adjust the fit and portions of the helmet that flex with the impact keeping the padding on the head, so a lot is going to depend on proper fitting and proper wear of the helmet. As far as the article goes I agree that any outside testing is good so long as the information and research methods are sound. I will be more interested in the peer review of the study and what possible issues are brought up. The biggest things I can see is that football and hockey while both contact sports deal with different types of hits. In hockey you stand a much higher chance of multiple impacts in the same over all hit (i.e secondary impacts of you being checked and then your head slamming into the boards or slamming your head on the ice). As other have said and I will reiterate there is no way to ever prevent a concussion fully. Also since a concussion is essentially your brain hitting the inside of your skull any blow could cause a concussion, hell soccer players get them when going up for headers during the game. Since the brain sits in the skull surrounded by a thin layer of CSF (cerebrospinal fluid) it has space to move and hit the inside of your skull.

I think the article released by ESPN is rather irresponsible but it is typical of most news stories these days in that they are looking for the shock factor of the news story than actually presenting the full story. The article, or at least the tone and bias of the article seem like they are designed to shock/scare your average reader.

Also found this article on the methods used in the research for the hockey helmet study http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/285/art%253A10.1007%252Fs10439-015-1278-7.pdf?auth66=1427756208_103e2542c16650245c5b11e419ef201d&ext=.pdf

[Chadd 916]

They have to be on the board. But there are way to many people that can out vote a change they wish to make if we all don't agree. I really do not appreciate your tone and saying that I would let a company influence if I think a product is unsafe.

Frankly Jeff, I don't really care if you like my tone or not and I never even said that in the first place. You have accused me of things that I never said and the VA Tech people of ulterior motives a number of times in this topic. If you want to rebut their methods or results, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I just suggest you lay off the personal attacks.

[Buzz_LightBeer 959]

Also, after watching the video on the top of the article, the dad of the 8th grade daughter that allowed his daughter to play a varsity level high school game(against players possibly 3-4 years older than her) is the one responsible for putting his daughter at risk. "Risk reduction" was a key phrase of the VT researcher. This dad did nothing to evaluate that. And finally, the helmet his daughter wore is 7500 NIKEBAUER helmet!!!! Refresh my memory: when exactly did Bauer buy Nike? What year, best case scenario, could that helmet have been manufactured in? That helmet was probably old when he bought it new for $70!!??? Sorry, but his particular situation slants the video quite a bit.

Thanks, I'm glad someone else noticed that as well. Also has a cage too large to sit in the J clips.

[Stryker 37]

We sold 2 Krown helmets today, both to parents who stopped by without their kids, who directly cited this report as the reason for changing helmets. Both times I tried to explain how proper fit works, and how one helmet is not the most protective for everyone. Both times, the parents shrugged off my recommendations and left with their new shiny helmet.

This is the major issue with the study, everyone is so quick to term one helmet a champion, and people refuse to listen to the guys working in stores, that have been fitting helmets for many years.

At this point, the damage is already done. No matter the methods (flawed or not) of the study, the media has ran with it and people are now in a shock and awe stage.

Fucking frustrating that people dont want to listen anymore

[Chadd 916]

Fucking frustrating that people dont want to listen anymore

My wife is the same way. She believes the people at work or something she read on the internet more than people that do it for a living. (non-hockey)

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

We sold 2 Krown helmets today, both to parents who stopped by without their kids, who directly cited this report as the reason for changing helmets. Both times I tried to explain how proper fit works, and how one helmet is not the most protective for everyone. Both times, the parents shrugged off my recommendations and left with their new shiny helmet.

This is the major issue with the study, everyone is so quick to term one helmet a champion, and people refuse to listen to the guys working in stores, that have been fitting helmets for many years.

At this point, the damage is already done. No matter the methods (flawed or not) of the study, the media has ran with it and people are now in a shock and awe stage.

Fucking frustrating that people dont want to listen anymore

This is sad. Now with improper fitting helmets the first person to get blamed will be the fitter because they didn't sway them away from the improper fit.

I think it is time now all companies, Warrior especially should stand up and say only buy our helmet if it fits you properly and consult with your store expert.

But as you said the Damage is done now.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

The thing is, if you go onto VT's site for the football ratings, all of the things we have talked about (proper fit, helmets are not concussion-proof, etc) is listed clearly on their page.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

The thing is, if you go onto VT's site for the football ratings, all of the things we have talked about (proper fit, helmets are not concussion-proof, etc) is listed clearly on their page.

JR can you put the link up? I cant find that page?

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

http://www.beam.vt.edu/helmet/index.php

On the hockey link, the methodology is listed.

[Stewie 721]

I would highly dispute the claim that the professor was getting rich by this research. If you're looking to make stacks of cash, you are probably not going to become a professor at a public university.

As far as the actual research and findings go, obviously hockey is different from football, but the more the academic world looks into this and other issues, I think the better we all are, and maybe some more innovative ideas at making helmets better will come of it. Obviously you are not going to eliminate concussions from the sport, but anything you can do to provide better protection to the brain is a good idea, and there have been far worse usage of research dollars over the years.

As far as me as a consumer, I am going to stick with my 11k. It fits the best, offers me the most comfort, and ive taken some pretty big impacts with it and have emerged no worse for wear (although some may argue otherwise). Probably gonna scoop another one up if I don't like the comfort and fit of the fitlite when its released.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-01-28/the-controversial-safety-ratings-that-sell-football-helmets

This is actually a very good article on the page on the right.

Publicity for the STAR (Summation of Tests for the Analysis of Risk) ratings has helped attract money and students to Virginia Tech’s engineering college, Duma says. “Everybody involved in every sport has come to talk to us,” he says. The program doesn’t take donations from helmet makers, though the university requires it to charge fees when manufacturers seek testing for their own development purposes. Duma forbids his staff from testifying in helmet litigation. “I could stop right now and be a millionaire doing that,” he says.

[Stewie 721]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-01-28/the-controversial-safety-ratings-that-sell-football-helmets

This is actually a very good article on the page on the right.

Publicity for the STAR (Summation of Tests for the Analysis of Risk) ratings has helped attract money and students to Virginia Tech’s engineering college, Duma says. “Everybody involved in every sport has come to talk to us,” he says. The program doesn’t take donations from helmet makers, though the university requires it to charge fees when manufacturers seek testing for their own development purposes. Duma forbids his staff from testifying in helmet litigation. “I could stop right now and be a millionaire doing that,” he says.

not sure why this part is quoted. Yes, that is the goal of every public university to attract students and research dollars in based on research they feel is very useful. The more research dollars for him and his department, the better. As far as the last part, sure if he wanted to become an expert witness or enter more private sector ventures, he could make a ton of money, but if anything it makes it seem like he is actually trying to put effort in to honestly make helmets better, while providing impartiality, and develop better methods of testing and evaluation than what is currently available.

[Chadd 916]

Even the Va Tech staff say that the number isn't everything. And given everything that I have seen and read over the years, they appear to be going in what I believe is the right direction. More and softer padding will dissipate impacts better than harder padding. At the very least, everything they are doing is out in the open and can be critiqued.

[Stewie 721]

Even the Va Tech staff say that the number isn't everything. And given everything that I have seen and read over the years, they appear to be going in what I believe is the right direction. More and softer padding will dissipate impacts better than harder padding. At the very least, everything they are doing is out in the open and can be critiqued.

exactly, and that is the key. Maybe based on these studies, a materials engineer will have an idea for something new they could put into helmets to make them even safer, or some other professor at another university will come up with ideas that can make the testing itself even more refined.

[EBondo 232]

We sold 2 Krown helmets today, both to parents who stopped by without their kids, who directly cited this report as the reason for changing helmets. Both times I tried to explain how proper fit works, and how one helmet is not the most protective for everyone. Both times, the parents shrugged off my recommendations and left with their new shiny helmet.

This is the major issue with the study, everyone is so quick to term one helmet a champion, and people refuse to listen to the guys working in stores, that have been fitting helmets for many years.

At this point, the damage is already done. No matter the methods (flawed or not) of the study, the media has ran with it and people are now in a shock and awe stage.

Fucking frustrating that people dont want to listen anymore

This is exactly what I dealt with yesterday. Armed with her trusty iPad and the article loaded up, she came in wanting three of the helmets. Regardless of what I tried to explain to her regarding how each person's head is different, and one helmet may not fit while another one may, she wasn't having it and wasn't going to accept any suggestion I offered. Fortunately, one of the kids was with her, and the helmet did end up properly fitting him.

[innotastic 12]

This is exactly what I dealt with yesterday. Armed with her trusty iPad and the article loaded up, she came in wanting three of the helmets. Regardless of what I tried to explain to her regarding how each person's head is different, and one helmet may not fit while another one may, she wasn't having it and wasn't going to accept any suggestion I offered. Fortunately, one of the kids was with her, and the helmet did end up properly fitting him.

If it lessens the sting, chances are the first time around the mum was probably just as rash in purchasing a helmet, might of been a $300 helmet that doesn't fit much better than the krown. so at the least she's buying something, apples to apples, that is probably safer.

i would think buying a helmet that might not fit but rated safer by one study is better than buying a stupidly expensive helmet that might not fit, but is expensive and accordingly to a manufacturer means its safer. but again, this study isn't written law yet.

Edited March 31, 2015 by innotastic