More Skate Questions - Graf Fit

[2nhockey 21]

First, thanks for the recent help on sticks and protective gear. Based on your advice and feedback I'm waiting on delivery of a Covert QR3 stick, a butt end for the Dynasty my daughter outgrew, and Easton HSX shins. My hope on the shins is they will offer calf protection as well. We'll see. 

 

So now on to skates. Knowing nothing about skates except that she needed some we made the trek to a LHS earlier in the season. I do not want to make that trip again if I can avoid it (3+ hours one way ). We made it the one time because all the Google searches I did all kept saying skates need to be done right at an LHS.

 

Anyway, I took her into the shop and told her to find skates that fit. I set no time or dollar amount restrictions. The owner of the store did a great job of explaining how to find a good fit and worked diligently to make her happy. My daughter tried on a lot of skates, both new and used and over the course of a couple of hours she ended up in a pair of Graf 535's.

 

Now that I'm learning more about the game and she is hooked I thought I would get her some new skates for her birthday. I guess the 535's are a bit of a lower end skate so I'd like to get something a little nicer. However my impression is that Graf's have such a unique fit/pitch that you either use exclusively Graf's or you stay far away from Graf's (is that true?) She loves her Grafs.

 

I also seem to be having to get these skates sharpened more often than the Mission's she was wearing previously. Is that possible?  She skates very hard but I didn't think she was heavy enough to stress her skates?

 

She also tried on some 703's (I think that was the number ) and I guess they were painfully narrow. My question is how are the 9035's going to compare to the 535's? Should I be looking for something else? She loves her 535 fit and comfort so I want to find a skate that will fit the same. Thanks!

[laserrobottime 148]

9035s are going to be a drastically different fit. 

 

The current 735 is an upgrade, and the old G75 lite (yellow trim) and G65 are a composite boot that has the same fit. You can find those online many places for cheap. Be careful though, the very old G75 with blue trim has a different fit. 

 

You're sharpening the 535 more because it has cheap steel that doesn't hold an edge well.

[boo10 323]

If she loves the 535s, why replace them?  Maybe instead of new skates, you could get her some STEP runners?  Just a thought. 

[2nhockey 21]

I guess I don't know what defines a composite boot or why that would or wouldn't be desirable. When you say drastically different fit I assume you are suggesting they should be tried on in a shop? Shop we went to didn't have those ones so the 9035 would have to be done via Internet. Also, 735 and 735 Overload. What is the difference? 

 

She loves the comfort of the 535 so just trying to replicate that feel in a nicer skate as a bday present.

 

I don't know what a STEP runner is. Certainly not oppsed to it if I knew why it was better over what she has.

 

Thanks!

[krisdrum 223]

As a fellow 535 wearer (older version with the Cobra holder instead of the newer Attack holder), if the 535 fit is working for her, stick with a boot with a similar fit (735, etc, as mentioned above).  Graf designs their skates to lock the heel first and foremost.  Moving her to a 9035 will NOT help her.  The heel will be too wide.  I have not found any other skate that really works for my feet like the 535 and related boots.  The 735/535... has a narrow, pronounced heel "pocket" with wider forefoot.  The only boot I've found that really locks my heel in.  The only thing that came close was a Bauer Vapor, but I had to go to a EE width, and even then the boot was too narrow up front. 

 

I believe only minor "feature" differences between the standard 735 and Overload.  If they are recent 735s, they likely have the Attack holders.  Overload has the better Cobra holders.  They will fit the same, but likely have some cosmetic differences as well.

 

As for composite vs classic construction... The G75 and G65 mentioned above use a carbon fiber based quarter (boot side) so they can make the boot lighter and stiffer with less material.  The Classic series (735, 535, etc) uses synthetic leather and different types of nylon in their quarter package.  So they typically are heavier and a bit softer.  Most of the industry is moving towards composite quarters as folks keep asking for lighter stiffer skates. 

 

STEP runners is a brand name of runners (the steel portion of the skate you sharpen).  If they are replaceable on her 535s, then you can upgrade her steel.  If not, you'd need to upgrade her holders as well (the white plastic part that holds the runner).

[Pucks & Palm Trees 3]

As others have said, if she likes the 535, don't change now.  The major change she'd feel with the 735 would be increased stiffness &, until she's a high level player, she probably doesn't need a stiffer boot.  If she becomes a powerful skater, such that she's feeling "wobble" from the boot breaking down, go with the 735 down the road.  If she becomes a really powerful skater, you might later think about moving to a deeper, higher volume boot for a bit more power transfer. 

[MyBoxersSayJoe 132]

Here's a link to Step's website:

http://stepskates.com/

[krisdrum 223]

32 minutes ago, Pucks & Palm Trees said:

If she becomes a really powerful skater, you might later think about moving to a deeper, higher volume boot for a bit more power transfer. 

Sorry, but what does boot depth and volume have to do with power transfer?  I'm relatively new to this sport, but that statement isn't making sense to me.  My common sense says you'd want the closest to the foot while still being comfortable fit you can get in order to ensure edge control and proper body weight transfer.  I'd also assume "power" would come from proper mechanics on the above and the ability to get full flexibility and articulation through the stride.  All of which would be independent of foot shape as long as the foot/boot fit is optimized.  Please enlighten me if I am off base.

[rawkstar 45]

@Pucks & Palm trees - yeah everything you said in your last post made sense until you said deeper, higher volume boot for power transfer. That is just simply incorrect. The volume of the boot affects the fit of the skate, it does not affect the amount of power a skater can transfer. A lot of extremely powerful skaters skate in shallow fitting skates, its just what fits best on their feet. The materials help with power transfer, the amount of volume in the boot does not, its just a fit characteristic.

 

As for the OP's question. Yeah Grafs are very different, but in my opinion not a bad skate for a kid learning the game. Their classic skates are generally lower cut and softer construction that other brands composite boots, which gives a lot more ankle mobility and allows the skater to flex the boot, which helps promote proper skating mechanics. They also are more pitched forward than most other skates and will give you a sense of being on your toes. Grafs are extremely durable, and when broken in are super comfortable. I've had a pair of 703s for the past 9 years and they are still going strong and fit like slippers now, just super comfy. 

 

735 will be the obvious choice for an upgrade, you may want to look at the wide boot version of 703s as well, if the normal was too narrow the wide boot might be a good fit. If her foot is not growing too much and she's still comfortable in current skates it may make sense to get a new set of step steel to help keep an edge longer, it'll run you anywhere from 60-100 bux depending on where you get it and who sharpens it and if you get a custom profile. So you have to figure out if its worth it financially. Don't get skates that are too big hoping she'll grow into them, if that means you're sticking to lower end models just stick to those, its better to have skates that fit well over better skates that don't fit.

 

 

 

 

[Pucks & Palm Trees 3]

Here's the power transfer issue:  the 735 sits a bit low and, at least with certain kids, can be hard to cinch up in the top 4 rows of laces.  So although the heel can get locked in, sometimes there can be excess "play" in the ankle.  I think that play is really good for younger skaters -- it helps them develop a deeper knee bend and better toe kick, which kids in deeper boots can really only get by leaving the top row or two of laces undone because they aren't strong enough to use a stiff boot.  But, once they have good form and are heavy enough and strong enough to use the physics of the boot, taking some of that ankle "play" out by switching to a boot that is deeper can result in better power transfer.  

 

(Source: watched my AAA player switch from years of 735 to Jetspeed 290s.  The objective difference in power was remarkable.  As always, your mileage may vary...) 

[rawkstar 45]

6 hours ago, Pucks & Palm Trees said:

Here's the power transfer issue:  the 735 sits a bit low and, at least with certain kids, can be hard to cinch up in the top 4 rows of laces.  So although the heel can get locked in, sometimes there can be excess "play" in the ankle.  I think that play is really good for younger skaters -- it helps them develop a deeper knee bend and better toe kick, which kids in deeper boots can really only get by leaving the top row or two of laces undone because they aren't strong enough to use a stiff boot.  But, once they have good form and are heavy enough and strong enough to use the physics of the boot, taking some of that ankle "play" out by switching to a boot that is deeper can result in better power transfer.  

 

(Source: watched my AAA player switch from years of 735 to Jetspeed 290s.  The objective difference in power was remarkable.  As always, your mileage may vary...) 

 

I think you may be misinterpreting what volume means. Volume refers to the instep depth of the skate and they're both medium volume skates. The 290 is a medium volume skate, just like the 735. What you are referring to is that 735 is a lower cut boot than the jetspeeds, the laces on the jetspeeds go up higher than the Grafs, so if you lace them all the way up you'll get a lot less ankle mobility. A lot of experienced skaters don't tie the top eyelet on their skates for that very reason, to get more forward flex and more ankle mobility. WIth classic Graf models you don't have to do that because they're lower cut boots and the laces don't go as up high so it leaves the ankle free to move around.

 

That said the 290s are also a modern composite boot, compared to the texalite construction of the 735s, which are essentially good skates from the 90s. Its definitely not a coincidence that your kid is skating better in them, but there's also a lot more variables there than the fact that they're lacing higher than the Grafs, the entire construction is different, all different materials, its a completely different type of skate. And its great that your kid is skating better in them and good on you for that, but what you're saying about the skate depth is incorrect information. 

 

I don't mean to hijack the thread with this, however it does give the OP another option of skates to try. Maybe the Jetspeeds might be a good set of skates to try out if you want to check out something other than Graf.

 

[2nhockey 21]

Awesome. Thanks so much for the information. 

 

So looking like a logical step is 735 Overload but keeping an eye out for some G75 since, as I understand it these are the same 'fit family'?

 

Looking for Cobra holders, anyway. So what difference does the holder alone make? Specifically, the Attacks we have vs. the Cobras we don't? Is puttibg Cobra holders on a 535 skate a bad idea?

 

Thanks again for your help. 

[krisdrum 223]

17 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

Awesome. Thanks so much for the information. 

 

So looking like a logical step is 735 Overload but keeping an eye out for some G75 since, as I understand it these are the same 'fit family'?

 

Looking for Cobra holders, anyway. So what difference does the holder alone make? Specifically, the Attacks we have vs. the Cobras we don't? Is puttibg Cobra holders on a 535 skate a bad idea?

 

Thanks again for your help. 

Cobra vs. Attack.  The Cobra is their "top line" holder.  Taller (so you can get better angle for tight turns, etc.) and stiffer (so you potentially have a more responsive feel).  The Attack from what I understand is their answer to the Bauer TUUK cosmetically.  It is their basic model and they've moved a lot of their skates onto that holder, outside of the top of the line offerings.  

 

Not sure the holes would match up perfectly, but you could certainly put a Cobra holder on your daughter's 535s (mine came stock with a Cobra).  Unclear just how much of a performance improvement you'd see from that switch.  You'll see plenty of NHL players using TUUK holders with another company's boot.  The holders are pretty easily swappable.  I think most of the pros do it because it is easier to source Bauer steels and so it is a lot more likely if something breaks they can fix it quicker and easier.

[2nhockey 21]

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. Based on what you're saying we'll skip a holder swap. 

 

I am curious about the steel though. I went to Step's website and it looks interesting. So I went to Hockey Monkey's website and see they are out of stock of Graf steel and don't carry the black or velocity steel. Or, at least not that I saw. Canadian company so probably won't sell direct. Anybody know where I can find this steel? It is expensive but if it reduces the number of sharpenings I have to pay for plus increases her performance - or at least confidence in her gear - then I think I can justify it.

 

If the Cobra holder is taller and increases performance because of that, and the Step steel is taller and increases performance. .. when is taller too tall?

[th6252 25]

19 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

Awesome. Thanks so much for the information. 

 

So looking like a logical step is 735 Overload but keeping an eye out for some G75 since, as I understand it these are the same 'fit family'?

 

Looking for Cobra holders, anyway. So what difference does the holder alone make? Specifically, the Attacks we have vs. the Cobras we don't? Is puttibg Cobra holders on a 535 skate a bad idea?

 

Thanks again for your help. 

G75 LITE with neon green piping, not the plain G75 with blue piping which fits somewhere between a supreme and nexus.

[fcalog 58]

3 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. Based on what you're saying we'll skip a holder swap. 

 

I am curious about the steel though. I went to Step's website and it looks interesting. So I went to Hockey Monkey's website and see they are out of stock of Graf steel and don't carry the black or velocity steel. Or, at least not that I saw. Canadian company so probably won't sell direct. Anybody know where I can find this steel? It is expensive but if it reduces the number of sharpenings I have to pay for plus increases her performance - or at least confidence in her gear - then I think I can justify it.

 

If the Cobra holder is taller and increases performance because of that, and the Step steel is taller and increases performance. .. when is taller too tall?

They sell on ebay.ca;  you can contact them directly 

[boo10 323]

4 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. Based on what you're saying we'll skip a holder swap. 

 

I am curious about the steel though. I went to Step's website and it looks interesting. So I went to Hockey Monkey's website and see they are out of stock of Graf steel and don't carry the black or velocity steel. Or, at least not that I saw. Canadian company so probably won't sell direct. Anybody know where I can find this steel? It is expensive but if it reduces the number of sharpenings I have to pay for plus increases her performance - or at least confidence in her gear - then I think I can justify it.

 

If the Cobra holder is taller and increases performance because of that, and the Step steel is taller and increases performance. .. when is taller too tall?

 

I skate on STEP and would highly recommend it.  Having said that, I think it may not be available for Attack holders. Sorry, I should have verified before making the suggestion.

[lpgbackups 17]

" I set no time or dollar amount restrictions. "       jeez..........i wish my dad had been like you

[2nhockey 21]

Haha! Appreciate that but this girl knows better than to take advantage of it, which is why we can do these things. I don't want to give the wrong impression though - she has earned everything. She's on the ice every single day and takes extra practices anytime she can get them, and skates during all the specialty practices, open skates, etc. She spends a lot of time on the ice, then has games on weekends. She gets a lot, I know, but she invests the work into it as well, with or without me and/or her mother.

[rawkstar 45]

I wouldn't bother swapping out the holders on 535, for the cost of the job alone you're better off putting that money toward a new pair of skates. Just the cost of a new set of cobra holders + steel + labor will be more than what it would cost to buy a new pair of 735s with all of that already on.

 

As for step steel its great. Its a few mm taller than the standard graf steel and its higher grade steel so it'll hold an edge a bit longer than the softer stuff that comes with the skates. I don't think they make them for attack holders. Its not a huge difference, but with that extra height you'd be able to lean a bit further without bottoming out. Its nice for a more advanced skater, you have to be pretty good with your edges to take advantage of it. It doesn't feel like skating on stilts, again its only just a few mms. Velocity and black steel step are basically the same as standard step steel except one's been polished and the other has a carbon coating on it, so the steel itself will hold the edge the same, except black steel will hold its edge a bit longer. However you have to be careful where you sharpen your skates as they're not meant to be honed after sharpening, otherwise the coating can be rubbed off, making it practically useless.

 

One more thing to keep in mind, at least for senior skates I believe this is the case, the default cobra steel is 11ft radius and default step steel is 10ft radius, so just out of the box they will feel a little bit different. You can read more about all of that on noicing sports website and you can also order the runners from them, they specialize in custom profiles as well. A lot of people here have had a good experience working with them (myself included) http://www.noicingsports.com/

 

I've been using just the standard step steel and I feel like I get all the major benefits of it without paying an exorbitant price and I don't have to worry about sharpeners messing up the coating.