Mounting holders on hockey skates for over pronation

[smu 29]

A question for the Group;

3 years ago I asked this same question, does anybody know of a hockey skate professional that can move holders medially to give me some positive relief from over pronation.

A large hockey shop in Alberta I believe gave me the name of one of their people in the Halifax, Nova Scotia area that could certainly do the job correctly. This "skate sharpener" I was given said my older Bauer X60s (top boot then) would not stand any more work as the holders had been removed several times and there was nothing much to work with. It was suggested I buy a new pair and he could then shift both my holders about an 1/8", why this figure I failed to understand.

I purchase a pair of Bauer X80, a step down from what I had and after having them sharpened my guy says that he can't shift the holders as there is not enough room on the foot-bed/sole area. I understand full well now, but I need something done so I can stop inserting shims in the medial heel pocket trying to get it right every game.

I want the VH skate and was wondering if I bought the Boot and Blades/holders separately would there be anyone in my area that can place the holders on the boots so my center of gravity is directly over my edges. Whether or not I can find someone here, how exactly is this process done. For normal feet a line is drawn from the center of the heel to between the big toe and the next toe beside it and the holder would be put on following that line, like they are supposed to do, if your feet are normal, off the assembly line. I might have VH place the blades slightly medial using T-nuts similar to what Graf had used and I could elongate the holes in the holder so I could move the holders some more.

How does the fitter for a figure skater do his or her job? The pros have their boot and blades separate and the fitter somehow establishes the skaters center of gravity and from that attaches the blades, perhaps it takes a couple of tries, but I would like to know the process from beginning to end.

2. Another question is why won't these same people give me the time of day when I mention what I want done to my hockey skate?

Thanks - Alan

[Mimizk 114]

Sorry I'm not a pro fitter and also English is not my native language. So I couldn't understand all of what you are saying.

But if you have been feeling uncomfortable, I think probably you can solve your problem by your sense. Because it means that you will be able to feel if your skate setting would be changed to suitable condition for your legs.
 

Then I suggest you that using medial shims. Can you see the shim which is inserted into medial side only in this picture?
You wrote about figure skate fitters though, figure skate's edge holders are narrower compared to its boots' sole. So there is enough spaces to adjust right and left. But our hockey edge holders are mounted fully on the boots' sole. And its rivet must be on suitable width of boot's inside sole. It's hard to adjust holders by sliding for pronation.
So often we using medial/cant shims for O/X legs. Yes I became very good with the same countermeasure. And I think another strong point of this method is that being able to restore if only put the shims out between holder and boot. There is a reversibility. Also you can try different moving amounts constantly and gradually.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Mimizk

[smu 29]

On 2016-11-14 at 1:13 PM, Mimizk said:

Sorry I'm not a pro fitter and also English is not my native language. So I couldn't understand all of what you are saying.

But if you have been feeling uncomfortable, I think probably you can solve your problem by your sense. Because it means that you will be able to feel if your skate setting would be changed to suitable condition for your legs.
 

Then I suggest you that using medial shims. Can you see the shim which is inserted into medial side only in this picture?
You wrote about figure skate fitters though, figure skate's edge holders are narrower compared to its boots' sole. So there is enough spaces to adjust right and left. But our hockey edge holders are mounted fully on the boots' sole. And its rivet must be on suitable width of boot's inside sole. It's hard to adjust holders by sliding for pronation.
So often we using medial/cant shims for O/X legs. Yes I became very good with the same countermeasure. And I think another strong point of this method is that being able to restore if only put the shims out between holder and boot. There is a reversibility. Also you can try different moving amounts constantly and gradually.

Mimisk, Thank you for responding and I understand you completely. Let me go back to my younger hockey life. I am considered to be a very good hockey skater, but I always noticed that in order to keep my blades from slipping I needed very sharp skates like 1/4" radius of hollow. I was literally cutting through the ice instead of gliding on it, but I could stand up and have lots of good games. 10 years ago now I had my first bout if right sided sciatica where my right foot had almost no feeling. I was in the US working at the time and within 2 months I felt 100%! When I returned home I decided to play some Summer hockey, but after playing 2 terrible games with my balance off and not being over my edges I stopped playing. At the start of the Fall I bought new skates and was able to have a great fitter about 2.5 hours away that told me right away that my right foot was over pronating and my balance point was too far back. Instead of grinding the steel he put about 3 mm heel lifts on both skates and those lateral shims on my right outside boot, back and front and with that I was nearly back to normal! But, adjustments needed to be done from time to time, but hockey was again great.

This fantastic fitter suddenly sold his shop just after I had another sciatica problem in 2012, Again the sciatica was on the same right side, but this was worse and I need help, my fitter was gone with no one to turn to. From there I went to the Chiropractor for orthotics and they did work, but not great, as well I was told that now my left foot was pronating and it was probably from the sciatica even though it was the left foot, but still having right sided sciatica with nerve tingling down the right leg.

By this point, probably 2014 I was using Superfeet (I have an email into that company about their new Carbon Superfeet where I think the are not constructed properly) that have minor post on their medial side and they seemed to work right out of the box, but eventually I seem to need to shim them with 1.5-3mm pieces of puck board medially in the heel pocket. Now every time I step on the ice it is a new experience as to what I have to do so I am over my edges. I can tell right away that my blades feel funny and need minor adjustments on the bench. Her is a good point - evver since my first fitter fixed my right foot pronation I had the ability to have my skates sharpened, from my old 1/4" to 3/8" then 5/8" and now it is usually around 1/2 " radius of hollow, something never I thought I could do. With this my leg don't get tired and I am able to glide far easier. Also I can glide on each foot and go in a straight line, I never could do this before. 

Back to the boot, yes I do know that there is not much room to move holders, but VH say that they will in extreme circumstances, I always assumed that they would be moving the blade so that it is under my center of gravity, not so, I am told that they do the trick by moulding the boot on the inside much like an orthotic, I guess. I have to do a remote fitting myself, they have no technicians in my area, I would have to travel to Toronto Canada from the Halifax Nova Scotia area about a 2.5 hour plane trip.

What to do? I have asked if the blades could be put on with T-nuts like the Graf's had. What I could do then is use my plastic pieces in steps like you suggested by loosening the nuts and inserting "Bont" wedges that have slits in them so once the holders are loose they can be slipped between the "bolts".

But, I can't understand if my sciatica is causing me problems with possible pelvic shift issues. I am just perplexed and want to play hockey well every time instead of having 50% of my games bad. One thing I have learned is a lot about this subject and about poor and good skates, how to see that the holders are on straight and a host of other material. I seem to know more about the pronation issue and what to do to fix it better than most large hockey skate dealers. 

Sorry for the long one but if you can add anything more it will be appreciated.

Cheers - Alan

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by smu
spelling, and grammar etc

[Kgbeast 195]

4 hours ago, smu said:

Mimisk, Thank you for responding and I understand you completely. Let me go back to my younger hockey life. I am considered to be a very good hockey skater, but I always noticed that in order to keep my blades from slipping I needed very sharp skates like 1/4" radius of hollow. I was literally cutting through the ice instead of gliding on it, but I could stand up and have lots of good times. 10 years ago now I had my first bout if right sided sciatica where my right foot had almost no feeling. I was in the US working at the time and within 2 months I felt 100%! When I returned I decided to play some Summer hockey with my nephew, but after playing 2 terrible games with my balance off and not being over my edges I stopped playing. At the start of the Fall I bought new skates and was cable to have a great fitter about 2.5 hours away that was able to tell me right away that my right foot was over pronating and my balance point was too far back. Instead of grinding the steel he put about 3 mm heel lifts on both skates and those lateral shims to my right outside boot and with that I was nearly back to normal! But, adjustments needed to be done from Tim to time, but hockey was again great.

This fantastic fitter suddenly sold his shop just after I had another sciatica problem in 2012, AgainGoaltender on the same right side, but this was worse and I need help, but he was gone with no one to turn to. From there I went to the Chiropractor for orthotics and the did work, but not great, as well I am told that now my left foot was pronating and it was probably from the sciatica even though it was the left foot, but right sided sciatica with nerve tingling down the right leg.

by this point, probably 2014 I was using Superfeet (I have an email into that company about their new Carbon Superfeet where I think the are not constructed properly) that have minor post on their medial side and they seemed to work right out of the box, but eventually I seem to need to shim them with 1.5-3mm pieces of puck board medially in the heel pocket. Now every time I step on the ice it is a new experience as to what I have to do so I am over my edges. I can tell right away! Something I missed, ever since my first fitter fixed my right foot pronation I had the ability to have my skates sharpened, first to 3/8" then 5/8" and now it is usually around 1/2 " radius of hollow, something I thought I never could do. With this my leg as don't get tired and I am able to glide far easier also glide on each foot and go in a straight line. I never could do this before. 

Back to the boot, yes I do know that there is not much room to move holders, but VH say that they will in extreme circumstances, I always assumed that they would be moving the blade so that it is under my center of gravity, not so, I am told that they do the trick by moulding the boot on the inside much like an orthotic or what I am doing now. I have to do a remote fitting myself, they have no technicians in my area, I would have to travel to Toronto Canada from the Halifax Nova Scotia area about a 2.5 hour plane trip.

what to do? I have asked if the blades could be put on with T-nuts like the Graf's had. What I could do then is use my plastic pieces in steps like you suggested by loosening the nuts and inserting "Bont" wedges that have skits in them do once the holders are loose they can be slipped between the "bolts".

But, I can't understand if my sciatica is causing me problems with possible pelvic shift issues. I am just perplexed and want to play hockey well every time instead of ruining 50% of my games. One thing I have learned is a lot about this subject and about poor and good skates, how to see if the holders are on straight and a host of other material. I seem to know more about the pronation issue and what to do to fix it better than most large hockey skate dealers. 

Sorry for the long one but if you can add anything more it will be appreciated.

Cheers - Alan

 

Alan, I think Mimizk's suggested fix is pretty awesome. On VH thread the same method but using bont spacer is suggested by SMU. I think the best way to do this is to get Graf nuts/screws set from something line hockeymonkey.com. The screws are correct sizes for the holders and are rated for this application. Plus because instead of lugs, they have shallow wings, you can press them into the sole of the boot without compromising the fragile carbon-fiber. You might have to file or grind them shorter in case if the sole too thin, but I do not think it will be a problem. Note that if you buy Graf nuts and screws, they come in two sizes as the rear post hardware is longer on Graf (not sure about what you have), but I am sure you can measure all this and figure out what you need. While it is possible to calculate the angle that you need to offset the holder by, but it is probably much easier to use trial and error method and figure out what works using some washers. Do not tight the crap out of those while trying/error, just snag them up.  Obviously, you do not need to skate in that, just stand carefully and see if blades are getting perpendicular. Once you figure the thickness of the spacer, you can get a proper material and fabricate the final spacers.  

[Mimizk 114]

Sounds good.

If my memory is correct, Scott doesn't recommend to use T-nuts for VH boots because it hurts carbon fiber. I bought an own riveter for my better hockey life but this is too much story, I also think.

Only a thing which I have to mention you is that Bont wedge (I'm also a cyclist) is not perfect. 1st, cycling wedges have been made for cycling shoes and its cleat is too narrower against wide hockey boots and its holder. The wedges don't reach side to side of holder's mount. Then 2nd, we have to change the height of medial shims back and forth. For example the picture which I pasted on my former post using 1mm back and 2mm front. This is able to known if you calculate.

Scott is a great man. Perhaps you will not need to do any adjustment or countermeasure if you get your VH skates. In fact, now I've not been using any medial side shims on my VH skates.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Mimizk

[smu 29]

12 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

Alan, I think Mimizk's suggested fix is pretty awesome. On VH thread the same method but using bont spacer is suggested by SMU.

 

12 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

Alan, I think Mimizk's suggested fix is pretty awesome. On VH thread the same method but using bont spacer is suggested by SMU. I think the best way to do this is to get Graf nuts/screws set from something line hockeymonkey.com. The screws are correct sizes for the holders and are rated for this application. Plus because instead of lugs, they have shallow wings, you can press them into the sole of the boot without compromising the fragile carbon-fiber. You might have to file or grind them shorter in case if the sole too thin, but I do not think it will be a problem. Note that if you buy Graf nuts and screws, they come in two sizes as the rear post hardware is longer on Graf (not sure about what you have), but I am sure you can measure all this and figure out what you need. While it is possible to calculate the angle that you need to offset the holder by, but it is probably much easier to use trial and error method and figure out what works using some washers. Do not tight the crap out of those while trying/error, just snag them up.  Obviously, you do not need to skate in that, just stand carefully and see if blades are getting perpendicular. Once you figure the thickness of the spacer, you can get a proper material and fabricate the final spacers.  

Thanks for the post, SMU is me, Alan! I have been fighting this problem for years and thought that the VH skate might be the perfect choice until I found out that the blades are not moved most of the time and with just my own remote fitting how good will the offset, either by the built in orthotic or a holder move be? I have had the lateral shims in the right skate 6 or 7 years ago and yes they work, but it is hard to adjust or gauge because the rivets have to come out. VH will put the T-nuts in and if longer ones are needed I can always have that done. I am not sure if you know, but I mentioned the Bont shims. I hope I have answered or responded to your post correctly. but I am heading for a doctor's appointment and need to reply to another. Come back if I have missed something.

Cheers - Alan-SMU

[smu 29]

18 hours ago, Mimizk said:

Sounds good.

If my memory is correct, Scott doesn't recommend to use T-nuts for VH boots because it hurts carbon fiber. I bought an own riveter for my better hockey life but this is too much story, I also think.

Only a thing which I have to mention you is that Bont wedge (I'm also a cyclist) is not perfect. 1st, cycling wedges have been made for cycling shoes and its cleat is too narrower against wide hockey boots and its holder. The wedges don't reach side to side of holder's mount. Then 2nd, we have to change the height of medial shims back and forth. For example the picture which I pasted on my former post using 1mm back and 2mm front. This is able to known if you calculate.

Scott is a great man. Perhaps you will not need to do any adjustment or countermeasure if you get your VH skates. In fact, now I've not been using any medial side shims on my VH skates.

Mimizk, it was Rob that said it could be done, the T-nuts that is. The wedges do not go from side to side, if that is what you mean, they just have to reach and go under the holder a small amount to give the correction. I am glad you have no problem with yours, but one other member on the VH thread does thus my uncertainty especially since there is no one near me to do the fitting nor the 3D fitting. Also, why the difference in your thickness of wedges from back to front. The first time I had them done they were both equal.

Thanks and keep up the talk, please!

Regards,

Alan

Edited November 15, 2016 by smu
Changed Rivets to T-nuts & changes spacing

[smu 29]

8 hours ago, smu said:

Mimizk, it was Rob that said it could be done, the T-nuts that is.  -- Alan

Note my edit from Rivets to T-Nuts being Robs suggestion.

Alan

8 hours ago, smu said:

Mimizk, it was Rob that said it could be done, the T-nuts

that is. The wedges do not go from side to side, if that is what you mean, they just have to reach and go under the holder a small amount to give the correction. I am glad you have no problem with yours, but one other member on the VH thread does thus my uncertainty especially since there is no one near me to do the fitting nor the 3D fitting. Also, why the difference in your thickness of wedges from back to front. The first time I had them done they were both equal.

Thanks and keep up the talk, please!

Regards,

Alan

 

[Mimizk 114]

To change the medial shims thickness of back and forth is not my thinking. Holder's back and forth have different height. For example if you want to change holder's angle 1 degree to outside, lower front must need thicker shim than higher back.

If you use the same height shims only, skate holder will be twist. I guess maybe people can use, skate normally with twisted holder. But I don't think to do such not accurate adjustment because even tuner doesn't understand correctly what he doing.

[malcb33 95]

It really sounds like you need to find yourself a set of the old MLX skates or just a set of the holders to mount on a new pair of skates.

 If you don't already know, MLX were the predecessor to the Mako and made by Scott VH for MLX before they were sold to Easton and Scott started VH. MLX holders could be moved about 3mm either way (inside or outside) as the rivet holes were oval shaped (on the holders). MLX also used a type of T-nut which didn't have very aggressive teeth so they were OK with composite soles.

You can't really see them here as the have the metal mounting brackets over the holes, but you can see how the holders are shaped around the oval holes to allow the movement.

[smu 29]

3 hours ago, Mimizk said:

To change the medial shims thickness of back and forth is not my thinking. Holder's back and forth have different height. For example if you want to change holder's angle 1 degree to outside, lower front must need thicker shim than higher back.

 

Why would you want to change the height, would it not twist the holder and cause more problems?

SMU - Alan

 

 

 

[smu 29]

2 hours ago, malcb33 said:

It really sounds like you need to find yourself a set of the old MLX skates or just a set of the holders to mount on a new pair of skates.

 If you don't already know, MLX were the predecessor to the Mako and made by Scott VH for MLX before they were sold to Easton and Scott started VH. MLX holders could be moved about 3mm either way (inside or outside) as the rivet holes were oval shaped (on the holders). MLX also used a type of T-nut which didn't have very aggressive teeth so they were OK with composite soles.

You can't really see them here as the have the metal mounting brackets over the holes, but you can see how the holders are shaped around the oval holes to allow the movement.

 

2 hours ago, malcb33 said:

It really sounds like you need to find yourself a set of the old MLX skates or just a set of the holders to mount on a new pair of skates.If you don't already know, MLX were the predecessor to the Mako and made by Scott VH for MLX before they were sold to Easton and Scott started VH. MLX holders could be moved about 3mm either way (inside or outside) as the rivet holes were oval shaped (on the holders). MLX also used a type of T-nut which didn't have very aggressive teeth so they were OK with composite soles.

You can't really see them here as the have the metal mounting brackets over the holes, but you can see how the holders are shaped around the oval holes to allow the movement.

I really know about these and I could cry! They had discontinued them or sold the business before I knew the existed. What a wonderful way to solve all the pronator problems. Here is the solution and then Easton buys the skate and does not use them. Anyway, as far as the MLX goes they only sold size 6 or 7 up and I took a 5 Bauer (7 shoe). As I said and I will say it again, I could cry knowing what could have been done.

At least some people out there know there are issues with pronation, but no major manufacturer is doing anything about it. As I understand there are many more over pronators than are those with near perfect feet!

I did not know that Scott Horne was involved with the MLX skate, I wonder if VH can do the same for their skate, but the patent was probably sold as well? I should ask but then there is the size issue, patents and lots of costs.

My head is starting to spin with all the alternatives that I can do, yet I am told I have to be careful todo it! I am now at a standstill using my original Superfeet and adding shims inside the skate, I wish it were easier.

Even though I really could not afford it I would pay a heck of a lot more if I could get into a skate and play with confidence having myself over my center of balance.

Thanks for the wonderful photo, although I have seen it before. I think I will end the post now with lots of thanks and then go to bed crying. ;)

Alan

[smu 29]

Thanks everyone for your input, please do not stop posting on this thread, the more I hear from you the more I know, good or bad.

With the number of suggestions I have has led me to some confusion over the best thing to do, like the Bont wedges won't work or yes you can move the holder over and no you can't use T-nuts, etc..  I like the "get an old pair of MLX skates" with the moveable holders. Oh, if I only could, but they never made as junior model anyway.

I even wrote the 2nd owner of MLX after Scott Horne's involvement, (I guess).  I did not know any of this up to this point. This man's name was Mike Cunningham if I recall correctly.  Too bad Easton did not see the potential need of the moveable holder, I am sure they cut their costs by not adding the moveable holder into their skates.  I may have had a pair of those now if the MLX holders were on the Mako.

***1. QUESTION: - Here is a question I have about COG (center of gravity) and moving holders.  Is the best thing to do to help skaters with COG problems to have the blades directly under their center of gravity? If this was done, does it not follow that their issue is solved completely?  As long as your blades are situated under your COG you should have excellent results, even if you start to pronate more?

But, maybe if your center of gravity changes with more or less pronation, or more or less body weight and posture, perhaps this does affect your COG and the need of changing your holders once again.

Thanks again for the input, I have to collect all the points discussed in this and other threads on one sheet of paper and take another hard look at the problem. It is funny just as I wrote that last word "problem" I often wondered what is happening with all the other  people that must have issues like mine "out there"?

BTW, one day about 4 years ago I had the privilege of speaking with *Sean Skinner by phone about skate and foot issues. He would often hold camps for the pros and it was his opinion that even before the players got on the ice he could spot the players that had ill fitting skates either by a pronation issues or just a bad skate problems that the player just worked through. Sean said they made as far as the did by learning to cope with the skates they had, but did convey to those players their particular problems and most likely holding them back. *(Reference - Skinner Hockey Inc., Google his name and see his resume and instructional videos)

Keep it coming, more than myself is learning from this topic!

Cheers - Alan

[Kgbeast 195]

11 hours ago, smu said:

Why would you want to change the height, would it not twist the holder and cause more problems?

SMU - Alan

It is more of because the front flange is almost twice wider than the rear one. So then you roll the holder, the front flange side would come-up  more than the rear. In actuality, if you are super anal about this, you would shim both rear sides and one front side because when you roll the holder trying to maintain the original back-to-front profile of the blade  exactly, both sides of the rear will come up. If you shim only one side of both posts, your heel will end up a little lower than it was prior to shimming, but that is pretty small amount and would not worth the extra work. MLX style of adjustment is more proper. When you go from rivets to Graf style nut, you will need to open up the holes in the sole, if instead of drilling them wider, you use round needle file and open them up in the direction of offset, you might be able to get enough offset (probably 1.5mm) for some amount of pronation (or supination if moved the other way). Note that ovaling the holes in the soles should be avoided. 

[smu 29]

On 2016-11-16 at 0:05 PM, Kgbeast said:

It is more of because the front flange is almost twice wider than the rear one. So then you roll the holder, the front flange side would come-up  more than the rear. In actuality, if you are super anal about this, you would shim both rear sides and one front side because when you roll the holder trying to maintain the original back-to-front profile of the blade  exactly, both sides of the rear will come up. If you shim only one side of both posts, your heel will end up a little lower than it was prior to shimming, but that is pretty small amount and would not worth the extra work. MLX style of adjustment is more proper. When you go from rivets to Graf style nut, you will need to open up the holes in the sole, if instead of drilling them wider, you use round needle file and open them up in the direction of offset, you might be able to get enough offset (probably 1.5mm) for some amount of pronation (or supination if moved the other way). Note that ovaling the holes in the soles should be avoided. 

Kgbeast,

1. If I were to use an outside lift on the medial side and placed in the front that's all that would be needed, nothing in the back, or as you say if you are anal, both sides in the back. Would the double shim in the back be less stress or twist on the holder?

2. Thanks for the information on the movement of the holders and how to make the holes on the skates rather than the holder.

3. I have just used new Carbon Superfeet and they have removed my problem, but my left foot still does not feel like it used to, but I am over me edges, Perhaps it is a boot issue or related to my ongoing sciatica and possible minimal pelvis movement, but I cannot find any information relative to this.

4. I mentioned that VH are willing to put all T-nuts in the holders, I could not understand why the Bont wedges could not be used and just slid under the the holders?

5, Is it best to have the blades mounted under your COG or do wedges and orthotics do just as good?

Cheers - Alan

[Vet88 673]

Alan - previously we have spoken at length on this and discussed how graf was better suited for the movement of the holders. I had some success with this but it is not the panacea one expects it to be. I have done some ongoing work with a couple of students who are doing masters / doctorates in this field and have learnt that pronation has many causes and effects, resolving it in a ice skating boot requires a multi phased approach - orthotics, boot fit, blade alignment, body alignment, exercises, strengthening programs and stretching. For example: putting a wedge in to get cog may help you whilst you are standing upright in a neutral position on the blade but as soon as you go into a turn and if the boot fit is not right the foot can collapse and roll in the boot. This leads to a loss of power in the turn, loss of edge or the catching of an edge as you transition from one edge to another coming out of the turn because your foot has now moved in the boot. 

My suggestion would be to go see a sports podiatrist who has experience in working with ice skaters. NOTE - "experienced" is the key word here and you will need to ask some hard questions before you consider seeing someone and paying them for their time and expertise. The aapsm organisation would be a good start and their web site (www.aapsm.org) has a list of members located in Canada. You may know of other organisations who offer similar expertise. The downside is the cost, it is not cheap to see these people and get orthotics built and if you live remotely it is even harder. But I think that seeing someone skilled in sports podiatory, explaining to them the problems you are having, working with them on your current skates and a long term plan (or short term if your current skates are found to be a poor fit) to get into a pair of VH skates (for example have them build lasts for you that VH build the boot from) would be the best value money you can spend if you want to continue skating.

This is a good article on pronation in skates and how some of the issues were addressed: http://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

[smu 29]

20 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Alan - previously we have spoken at length on this and discussed how graf was better suited for the movement of the holders. I had some success with this but it is not the panacea one expects it to be. I have done some ongoing work with a couple of students who are doing masters / doctorates in this field and have learnt that pronation has many causes and effects, resolving it in a ice skating boot requires a multi phased approach - orthotics, boot fit, blade alignment, body alignment, exercises, strengthening programs and stretching. For example: putting a wedge in to get cog may help you whilst you are standing upright in a neutral position on the blade but as soon as you go into a turn and if the boot fit is not right the foot can collapse and roll in the boot. This leads to a loss of power in the turn, loss of edge or the catching of an edge as you transition from one edge to another coming out of the turn because your foot has now moved in the boot. 

My suggestion would be to go see a sports podiatrist who has experience in working with ice skaters. NOTE - "experienced" is the key word here and you will need to ask some hard questions before you consider seeing someone and paying them for their time and expertise. The aapsm organisation would be a good start and their web site (www.aapsm.org) has a list of members located in Canada. You may know of other organisations who offer similar expertise. The downside is the cost, it is not cheap to see these people and get orthotics built and if you live remotely it is even harder. But I think that seeing someone skilled in sports podiatory, explaining to them the problems you are having, working with them on your current skates and a long term plan (or short term if your current skates are found to be a poor fit) to get into a pair of VH skates (for example have them build lasts for you that VH build the boot from) would be the best value money you can spend if you want to continue skating.

This is a good article on pronation in skates and how some of the issues were addressed: http://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

Hi Allan, thought of you a lot as I posted, thinking about all the different things I seemed to be dealing with & discussing with you. I have that article listed in you first paragraph and was one of the fist times understandings the whole issue. Looking at it again I now understand why the holder shifts medially the same amount of distance medially, meaning the line is not drawn from the mid heel as in a normal situation out to that new point on the outside of the big toe area.

I wonder, with mild to moderate pronation, if I should move it. AllStar(I believe) said to go with the t-bolts, but ream out the boot with a cat-tail file so I can experiment moving the holders medialy.

With your second paragraph I have been to a few doctors and they seem to know less than me at this point, but I will definitely do as you indicate. You almost have to get a doctor who is a hockey player, knows he has pronation issues, is an expert with skate issues and can sole the patient's problem. I had an orthopedic surgeon that was a great hockey player that could not help and others such as a chiropractor hockey player that I got my firs orthotics from but can't say there is any correlation to my sciatica with some pelvis movement to skating problems. I have discussed it with others and there is one hockey pro that is posting here, but not on this problem if my memory serves me correct. I will go further though, thanks! I did have the new Carbon Superfeet on and I need no extra correction and had a good game indicating that my pronation can't be that bad! The problem I did have was my left foot felt funny and I was not up to my 100%. I will take another read of your email to make sure I did not miss something, I just happen to be in a rush and can't reply to others until tomorrow, it is only 2:pm now but won't be back until way past midnight. BTW, as you know from our discussions VH will go quit away to do what you ask when it comes to ordering, but Rob did say they will only move the blade id the pronation is severe, otherwise the correction is made into the boot. Nice to talk with you again! One last thing, before theses new Superfeet I felt like giving up with taking my skates off 2 or 3 times during the game putting inserts in trying to have a decent game. Talk later - Alan

Edited November 19, 2016 by smu
spelling and addition

[smu 29]

On 2016-11-16 at 0:05 PM, Kgbeast said:

It is more of because the front flange is almost twice wider than the rear one. So then you roll the holder, the front flange side would come-up  more than the rear. In actuality, if you are super anal about this, you would shim both rear sides and one front side because when you roll the holder trying to maintain the original back-to-front profile of the blade  exactly, both sides of the rear will come up. If you shim only one side of both posts, your heel will end up a little lower than it was prior to shimming, but that is pretty small amount and would not worth the extra work. MLX style of adjustment is more proper. When you go from rivets to Graf style nut, you will need to open up the holes in the sole, if instead of drilling them wider, you use round needle file and open them up in the direction of offset, you might be able to get enough offset (probably 1.5mm) for some amount of pronation (or supination if moved the other way). Note that ovaling the holes in the soles should be avoided. 

Kg, Thanks, I see what you mean now, all good information!

I even used your comment in my post below to VET, but wrongly gave the credit to another member, sorry.

Perhaps I can have VH only drill 6 holes or so and experiment with the skate from there. I will know quickly if I am not over my edges since it seems to be a ritual, every damn time, to check my edges as soon as I step on the ice. I do notice minimal changes back and forth 1 mm or so from game to game, but is it in my head, the ice is different, my pelvis moving or just in my head?

Now I see some light with your style using the file (that was mentioned before) and the diagram that Vet88 reminded of, that he gives the link for as well.  I don't need a full course of T-nuts for the holder just a few and experiment.

I sure wish I had that MLX set up though!

Thanks - Alan

[Kgbeast 195]

1 hour ago, smu said:

 

Now I see some light with your style using the file (that was mentioned before) and the diagram that Vet88 reminded of, that he gives the link for as well.  I don't need a full course of T-nuts for the holder just a few and experiment.

Note, when I suggested the file, I was talking about an example when one would change from rivets to t-nuts only, and open the round rivet holes into the larger round holes for tnuts in the desored direction. I do not believe that you can pull the t-nuts out, then oval the holes in the sole of the boot and then reassemble. IMO, this will not work unless you fill the unused by the nut volume of the oval hole with something like epoxy. Ovaling  holes in the sole of the boot can ruin the boot and should be avoided. Carbon fiber is especially inappropriate material to do this to.

[smu 29]

I see what you mean!

How about well spaced rivets and see how they work, if they don't suit have the rivets removed and file the holes to move the holders. The rivet holes would not have to be filled in with epoxy either.

Alan

[smu 29]

On 2016-11-14 at 1:13 PM, Mimizk said:

"Then I suggest you that using medial shims. Can you see the shim which is inserted into medial side only in this picture?"

Mimizk,

Am I seeing  the heel or the toe in this photo, as if it is the heel the shim should be on the lateral side for pronators. Also, I have read, but now I can't find where there is a suggestion that if outside shims are used it seems that there should be 2 shims, left and right on the front wider boot for when you are turning to keep the blade and holder in proper alignment.

I cannot find this comment and perhaps it is on another thread. I do see a comment that suggest 2 shims in the back, this I don't understand.

Can anyone else remember this post, perhaps I did read it somewhere else, but it is something to consider if posting outside on the holder/boot. I apologize to the original sender of this information if it is on this thread, but I did take a quick look.

Alan

 

[krisdrum 223]

That is a toe in the picture. 

[Kgbeast 195]

21 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

That is a toe in the picture. 

Yes, it is a weird pic, but the skate in the picture does have heel shim as well, probably a thicker one at that. He shows that the toe is also shimmed, which is a good practice IMO.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Kgbeast

[smu 29]

1 hour ago, Kgbeast said:

Yes, it is a weird pic, but the skate in the picture does have heel shim as well, probably a thicker one at that. He shows that the toe is also shimmed, which is a good practice IMO.

========

I agree with both or at least one front and one back laterally, but someone suggested on this thread or another thread that we should be shimming both front sides to compensate for turns, if I can remember correctly. I would like to find that post and re-read it. It was a month or so ago. I do see where it is suggested in this thread that there should be shims in the rear and one in the front, but that must be a mistake.

Cheers,

Alan

 

[Kgbeast 195]

Not sure how  shimming up both side at the front will compensate for turns. When you tilt the holder while keeping its front to back plane, you will see that only one side of the front mounting flange will remain in contact. Other side of the front flange will lift, and both sides of the rear flange will lift off ( in case of pronation, the inner side will lift more that outer, but both will be up nevertheless). This is because the front mounting flange is much wider that the rear. So you might want to insert properly sized spacers to fill both of the sides at the heel (medial side spacer will be thicker in case of pronation), as well as one on the medial side of the front. Perhaps it was the reference to that you thinking of. 

I am not sure if this is a must, or it is ok to be less anal and live with slight misalignment caused by one sided shimming.  Likely, In most shops, you'd get just heel shimmed on one side.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Kgbeast