Marsblade Ice Holder

[althoma1 574]

Even if the pros testing/endorsing them wanted to wear them, I'm not sure they could without getting league approval first. 

They're definitely not cheap, but they'd be more expensive to produce than most holders because there are more parts. They're also being produced by a smaller company in smaller numbers than the most popular holders; that also drives costs up.

You'd definitely be limited to the proprietary runners; it'd likely be a stainless steel runner. No one knows for sure how they'll hold up over time right now. It seems like they've been testing them for a while now.

It's not the same thing as profiled steel - it's allowing more blade to be in contact regardless of the profile. You could use a custom profile in conjunction with these holders. The same profile with these holders and traditional holders would allow for more steel contact in turns. 

I don't think they'll necessarily get more traction from players learning the game. They'll get traction from people willing to spend money to possibly gain a competitive advantage and that could be players of all levels. With that said, it'll be a niche product to start for sure; I view it as similar to Sprung in the inline world. I think the Sprungs are better than the stock chassis on most skates, but most players are fine with the stock chassis and aren't willing to spend the money to buy a new chassis. Most people are also comfortable with the stock holder on their skates and aren't willing to spend the money to swap it, but there are those who do and will.

While I did spend the coin on the Sprung chassis for inline, I did that because I played ice first and was always searching for that ice like feel in inline (had already used the Tuuk Rocker chassis). For ice, I'd have to be shown that there would be a DRASTIC improvement with the new chassis to consider spending the money on the new chassis and getting it mounted. That's why I'm also in the wait and see camp on this, but the concept is interesting.

Oh, and for those wondering why I compared this to the Sprung holder in inline vs. the Marsblade inline chassis; I don't have the numbers, but think Marsblade may have sold more to ice players who don't even play inline on a regular basis because it was marketed as a training tool.

[Larry54 243]

I'd like to know what a more scientific test would reveal. I'd like to see them time a player on a lap of the rink and also through an obstacle course of sorts. This would have to be done after a proper warm-up on each type of holder obviously because switching from one type to the other requires a small period of adjustment to re-tune your muscle memory.

This may not be very relevant, but I remember one of the skaters in one of the videos comparing his Bauers + Tuuk holders to VH boots + Marsblade holders. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Larry54

[Coldclay 53]

I've been following and waiting for the release of Marsblade ice holders and personally, I've seen enough testimonies from reputable skaters/coaches to take the leap of faith. I'm getting them for my bantam son and I believe that if the player is already a strong skater, Marsblade will help take them even further. I highly doubt a small company like Marsblade could afford paying Backstroms and Johansson to promote their products. I truly believe those whose have tried them were genuinely impressed with the new technology.

I know there are lots of skeptics out there and I was one initially as well, but when Kickstarter started going live, I was early enough to get a set for $179 so no big deal if they don't work as advertised. I'm hoping I won't be disappointed and my kid will find them helpful. He is very excited and really looks forward to trying them next summer.

As for the NHL approval, I'm 50/50 on that... League could easily say it's 'cheating' and not allow pros to wear them or it could even be the existing big boys CCM Bauer protecting themselves and influencing league to ban them, who knows. But I can see that these could take the game to an entire new level and make the game even quicker and pros can further showcase their speed and skillset.

My kid is currently on Mako's but did demo a pair of FT1's at CCM Skill Camp and did look quicker, despite only wearing them for an hour, without baking plus a mystery hollow... True/FT1 + Marsblade = dream come true?

[Vet88 673]

Putting aside views on whether they work or not, the primary reason pros are not wearing them is because they are not yet approved by the NHL. There is no way you would wear these outside of games and then switch back to traditional holders for games, it would screw with your muscle memory to much. Once the NHL approve them (if they do) then it will be interesting to see what pros switch, especially as it will be mid season. I would expect most to hold off until the end of the season before switching over so they can test the hell out of them before trusting them to game time.

As to the validity of the product, sign me up. This follows along my line of thinking of a natural balance point your body finds when the ankle can move and is not locked into a heel pocket. A floating blade will really help here. These with no laces, I can't wait to receive them. My only reservation is the steel, I hope they get Step or Tydan or other steel manufacturers on board asap.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Vet88

[Kgbeast 195]

I like the tech as well (although was a bit of a looker for weak points at first ).My personal appreciation is that with these holders you are no longer fixed to a profile/pitch. You can be on your toes or heels as needed. I guess one thing that might be a bit of adjustment is with these "small" assists, like heel digs and toe carves (or whatever they are called), but it is likely that these holders will have other tricks in their sleeve. Skilled players always find what they can do with whatever they have. it will be interesting to see if these holders will have an obvious impact on the NHL.

... on the other note, I have not seeing how easy or hard it is to swap the runners on those, and how easy or hard for the holder to get destroyed by a hard shot or a run into the boards. These two things are pretty important for NHL player as well.

[Larry54 243]

I'm very curious as to what will come of these. But logic leads me to skepticism. The recurring theme in the videos is "Wow, these make skating so much easier." But easier doesn't necessarily mean better performance. In cycling, touring bicycles are much easier to ride than racing road bikes. Because of their geometry, the twitchy race bikes require more skill and focus to ride than touring bikes. But racers favor the liveliness of the race bike over the stability of the touring geometry in order to be able to suddenly shift position in a race... performance over ease of use.

Kgbeast mentioned heel digs and toe carves. With the rocking of the Marsblades, will one have to lower his heels or lean back a bit more for "heel digs"? Will one have to push ones toes down further or lean more forward for "toe carves" when skating backward? If so, this might require more ankle movement for such maneuvers wasting precious fractions of seconds and reducing mechanical efficiency. But on the other hand, maybe you won't have to worry about heel digs and toe carves to perform the same maneuvers with Marsblades.

I can see these helping lower skilled players just like an automatic transmission makes driving "easier" for everyone. It might be more like a crutch for those with reduced skating skills and maybe even a hindrance for accomplished skaters. I'm very interested in where this will go. But like I said before, I'd like to see scientific testing on their performance. Clap skates were proven to be beneficial for long track speed skating (but not for short track) using a stopwatch. The Marsblades performance need similar testing.

I'm such a Debbie Downer. 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Larry54

[shooter27 116]

Have they been submitted to the NHLfor approval? What is the process for doing that and the associated cost?

The NHL approved ThermaBlades, so why wouldn’t they approve these?

[BureKovy 20]

19 hours ago, Larry54 said:

Kgbeast mentioned heel digs and toe carves. With the rocking of the Marsblades, will one have to lower his heels or lean back a bit more for "heel digs"? Will one have to push ones toes down further or lean more forward for "toe carves" when skating backward? If so, this might require more ankle movement for such maneuvers wasting precious fractions of seconds and reducing mechanical efficiency. But on the other hand, maybe you won't have to worry about heel digs and toe carves to perform the same maneuvers with Marsblades.

 

I could see it helping for tighter turns with balancing and being able to lean in more.  When it comes to straight forward skate, I would think more energy can be generated from a fixed skate and a toe flick then a marsblades digging it, clicking, then releasing trying to assist.

[Vet88 673]

8 hours ago, shooter27 said:

Have they been submitted to the NHLfor approval? What is the process for doing that and the associated cost?

The NHL approved ThermaBlades, so why wouldn’t they approve these?

According to recent posts the designer has made, they have been submitted and they expect an answer in the next 2 months.

[shooter27 116]

2 hours ago, Vet88 said:

According to recent posts the designer has made, they have been submitted and they expect an answer in the next 2 months.

Good to know.  I’m assuming they’ll get approved. It’ll be interesting to see if any players adopt them once they get approval.  If they do, that would be a huge endorsement.  

[ParabolicActivity 48]

It seems Kronwall used them on 9/22. I have no more info than a post on HFB.

[Martis 0]

On 10/1/2018 at 5:02 PM, ParabolicActivity said:

It seems Kronwall used them on 9/22. I have no more info than a post on HFB.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/267946449/the-marsblade-ice-holder-setting-a-new-standard-in/posts/2313654

Looks like Kronwall used them against Toronto last thursday.

Does anyone know when the Ice Holder will be available? .. They are no longer availabe through Kickstarter.

[VegasHockey 1256]

I never back any of the kickstarter projects, the rate for failure is too high. I read somewhere that only 10% fail but then another independent study showed it was more like 50%. 

[Leif 160]

2 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

I never back any of the kickstarter projects, the rate for failure is too high. I read somewhere that only 10% fail but then another independent study showed it was more like 50%. 

True, but there’s probably a lot of bad ideas out there. The Marsblade holder might not be the product hoped for, but it looks pretty solid in terms of support from respected names. 

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

2 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

I never back any of the kickstarter projects, the rate for failure is too high. I read somewhere that only 10% fail but then another independent study showed it was more like 50%. 

It was beyond Kickstarter at this point.  Per was showing it to pro equipment managers over the summer.

[IPv6Freely 2082]

4 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

I never back any of the kickstarter projects, the rate for failure is too high. I read somewhere that only 10% fail but then another independent study showed it was more like 50%. 

I back a lot of them. Some do well, some take forever with endless delays, and some never happen.

Then there are the people who ask for refunds when there are delays.

Those people don’t understand crowdfunding. Kickstarter is not a shopping site.

[Santos L Halper 90]

21 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

[snip]

Kickstarter is not a shopping site.

Bwahhahahahhaaa!!! Love it...

[IPv6Freely 2082]

1 hour ago, Santos L Halper said:

Bwahhahahahhaaa!!! Love it...

It's amazing how many people think it is. 

[VegasHockey 1256]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:21 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

It was beyond Kickstarter at this point.  Per was showing it to pro equipment managers over the summer.

Doesn't mean they will still deliver though.... 

[Santos L Halper 90]

I got my first hands-on look at a Marsblade ice holder and blade combination early this week - figured I'd post my thoughts for those that might be interested, as this concept has generated a fair bit of interest both here and elsewhere....

First off, by way of background, the holders (and the skates they're attached to) are not mine.  They belong to a buddy of mine who is one of Marsblade's first investors.  He received a set of Marsblades and a set of spare runners from Per last week and asked me to sharpen them over the weekend.  As they are not on my skates, I DID NOT SKATE ON THEM.  I just sharpened the runners.  My buddy skated on them in an extremely high level (no...really...almost all former NHL players) pick up session on Sunday night and his comments are at the end of this post. 

Before I get to that, here are my thoughts based on some bench time with the holders/runners.

(N.B. I didn't have express permission from Per or my buddy to take/post any pictures, so I cobbled together a quick diagram of the chassis/blade combo in MS Word. Hopefully this helps illustrate how these things work. Any questions, please ask and I'll do my best to explain/clarify...)

Anyway...

They're freaking heavy...AND bulky  

My buddy's skates are Nexus 2Ns, which aren't the lightest things in the world...add the Marsblades, and they're approaching my Trues in heft (928g for his Nexuses w/Marsblades vs 987g for my Trues with Step holders and runners -- both size 272 holders).  I know, I know...don't skip leg day.  But, if minimizing the amount of weight you're lugging around the ice is high on your priority list, then Marsblades are likely not for you.  

Also, the way these things work necessitates a pretty bulky construction.  The "towers" (part that is mounted to the boot) are pretty standard.  Where they get hefty is towards the bottom.  See, the blade itself is integrated into a plastic chassis that then fits into the holder.  As such, the slot in the holder is about twice the width of one on a non-Marsblade holder, giving the whole thing a bit of a 'bloated' appearance and feel.  Given the movement designed into the Marsblades, I can't see how they could have designed the holder to be more streamlined, but there is significant bulk inherent in the system that I guess I wasn't anticipating.    

They don't 'move' anywhere NEAR as much as I thought they would...and the whole assembly is much 'tighter' than I anticipated

Given the premise of Marsblades, I figured they'd be somewhat 'teeter-totter-ish'.  They're not.  At all.  They actually move very little - a total of maybe 1/8" to 1/4" of total travel is possible under hand pressure.  Additionally, the way they're designed, there's a limit as to how much they can actually move, so under a skater's body weight, they might move a BIT more, but not a hell of a lot more.   

Also, it takes a fair bit of effort to get them to move much at all - which is definitely by design.  The flex/movement response is designed to be progressive - meaning the more the skater pushes (either forward or backward), the more the holder slides up (or down) the chassis/blade combo.  Put differently, it's not like these things are slamming forwards and backwards in their holders.  They're very tight and the movement is surprisingly subtle.  

Once I took the Marsblades apart, I discovered that there is a composite 'bar' that forms the basis of the rocking system.  When the skater leans forward, the chassis rocks forward into the toe of the holder - that motion is controlled and, ultimately, limited by the flexing of the bar against a spacer bolt that goes through the entirety of the holder and chassis.  Same on the back of the skate.  

The design is truly ingenious, as the only part that really 'moves' is the blade/chassis assembly - which is really only two pieces (bar and chassis).  There are no gears to strip, no levers to break, and no channels to wear out.  The composite bar is likely subject to wear, but it seems extremely robust and, should it weaken or fail, it can be replaced.  

Here's my MSWord diagram to (hopefully) illustrate this whole concept...

 

 

 

Anyway.  Moving on.  

There's a bunch of hardware involved and they're a total pain to work on 

The blade/chassis combo is held into the holder by 4 spacer bolts that go through the whole assembly from the lateral side.  Each of the spacer bolts is then held in with a machine screw that is secured from the medial side of the skate.  Yep. It's like a CCM SB holder on steroids - FOUR freaking bolts per holder!!!  Anyway.  In between each of the machine screws and the blade holder, there is a clear silicone washer (just wait until you drop those little bastards....) with no discernible purpose, as the screws are designed to bottom out in the spacer bolts, preventing over tightening. 

(Marsblade provides a tool (hex wrench on one end, spacer-pusher on the other) that will help you take them apart, but you'll need to provide your own flat-head screwdriver (or another hex wrench) to add preventative torque, or the spacers will just spin around in their holes when you try to loosen the screws.)  

Anyway.  Getting the blade chassis out of the holder requires removing all four screws and pushing the spacer bolts out of the assembly.  Then, you get to find somewhere safe to keep track of the spacer bolts, the screws, and the four teeny, CLEAR silicone washers.  Once all the hardware is out, the blade/chassis slides out of the holder with relative ease and the composite rocker bar falls out of the chassis and on to the floor.  Of course.  

Aside from making sure you have the blade/chassis combo going the correct direction (half notch goes towards the toe) and remembering to put the rocker bar in to the slot on the chassis, putting them back together is just the opposite of taking them apart.  However, you have to put the two middle spacers (and corresponding screws) in first, because those control the positioning of the blade/chassis assembly in relation to the other bolt holes.  Yet another thing to remember as you're working on these things.  Again, you can't over tighten anything because the screws bottom out before they get too tight, so you just screw everything back together and proceed on your merry way.

Honestly, no one part of working on the Marsblades is particularly difficult, but taken all together, it IS a pain.  There are too many small parts and they all need to fit together just so.  In an ideal world, you'd really want to be working on these on a bench in good lighting and without being in a hurry.  Any other situation, you're risking forgetting or losing something...and I can't even imagine trying to work on these in a player's bench setting.  Put differently, if you get Marsblades, be aware that you're not going to be doing any blade changes between shifts....or, most likely, between periods.  They're just too damn complicated and have too many teeny parts that will undoubtedly find their way into the graveyard of missing critical parts. I presume Marsblade has spare parts...and I recommend anyone that gets them have access to plenty, because unless you're being REALLY careful, you're likely to lose something.

The steel SUUUUUUUUCKS...and is not replaceable

I mention this because there is no other option.  Since the chassis/blade combo is one integrated unit and the steel itself is not removable, you're kinda stuck.  There are no third-party replacement runners available and, given the proprietary nature of the chassis/blade combo, I can't see how there ever will be.  If Marsblades catch on, perhaps this will change, but as it stands right now, if you want Marsblades, you have to get Marsblade steel. 

The runner is made of your garden variety stainless which burrs terribly and doesn't hold an edge well.  Which, if we're being honest, isn't all that different from stock steel on a mid-level skate from either of the major skate manufacturers.  However, since you have to pay a hefty premium to get Marsblades in the first place, it'd be nice if the steel didn't suck.

On ice review - again, from my friend

So, just so we're clear, my friend played more than 500 games in the NHL.  I mention this simply because his experience with the Marsblades is colored by HIS past and HIS ideas of how skates should work FOR HIM, and a novice skater/average beer leaguer is likely to have a very different experience than he had.  Plus, this was ONE skate on what amounts to a prototype, so it is safe to say that once the kinks are worked out and full production begins, a great many things could change.  As such, all of the opinions that follow need to be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.

Anyway.  Long story short, it was a struggle for him.  Here are some quotes:

"I felt off balance the entire time and was WAY too far back on my heels"

"I was digging into the ice on every turn and couldn't keep any speed"

"I felt like there was too much blade on the ice"

"I wound up moving back to defense - it felt like I couldn't keep up as a forward"

As a result of his feedback, I re-sharpened them yesterday, taking him from a 1/2" flat bottom radius (Fire ring on the Sparx) down to a 5/8" flat bottom radius; and the folks at Marsblade are going to make some adjustments to his holders and he is going to try them again.  Should there be anything noteworthy to report after his next time on the ice, I'll post a follow-up.

Final Thoughts

Though the Marsblade concept is still super interesting and seems to be based on relatively sound science, the execution kinda makes the whole thing feel a little "gimmicky" to me.  In the end, they are heavy, bulky, and there are too many pieces to lose.  

Now then, I'm aware that this is essentially a prototype and much could change before the final production models are rolled out, but I simply can't see how a great deal of what Marsblade is trying to do here can't otherwise be accomplished by profiling your steel.  A good profile can control the amount of steel that is ultimately on the ice and also control your pitch...and do so without adding a layer of complexity that the average hockey player (IMHO, anyway) doesn't need or want.  

To me, the best use of the Marsblade concept remains making a rollerblade 'feel' more like an ice blade.  Time, of course, will tell if I'm right....

Edited October 31, 2018 by Santos L Halper
Clarity & grammar...

[the_game 452]

The concept sound like the Mission ViBE inline chassis version of an ice holder.

Also curious about the Marsblade 'adjustments' they are going to make and if there are any options for the user to tinker with like the Mission Pitch holder.

[Santos L Halper 90]

1 hour ago, the_game said:

The concept sound like the Mission ViBE inline chassis version of an ice holder.

Also curious about the Marsblade 'adjustments' they are going to make and if there are any options for the user to tinker with like the Mission Pitch holder.

From what I could gather with the thing sitting in pieces on my workbench, there are no user adjustable options; but I could be wrong.

I will ask my friend what 'adjustments' Marsblade makes and see if he was able to gain any insight.  

[YesLanges 126]

That doesn't sound too good, but thanks for the update. Maybe I'm lucky they don't seem to have a record of the 2nd set I ordered. Any idea when they're going to be shipping these? The latest update over the summer said end of October.

Did you profile his steels to match his regular profile before he tested them? Only asking because his comments would probably be similar if he switched from his custom profile to a stock profile. Nothing you don't know better than I do...just asking.

 

[Santos L Halper 90]

12 minutes ago, YesLanges said:

That doesn't sound too good, but thanks for the update. Maybe I'm lucky they don't seem to have a record of the 2nd set I ordered. Any idea when they're going to be shipping these? The latest update over the summer said end of October.

No idea on shipping or anything related to the production aspects of Marsblade. 

13 minutes ago, YesLanges said:

Did you profile his steels to match his regular profile before he tested them? Only asking because his comments would probably be similar if he switched from his custom profile to a stock profile. Nothing you don't know better than I do...just asking.

 

I asked my buddy about that and he said that the Marsblade people told him that whatever profile a skater is currently using likely won't work when s/he moves to the Marsblade holder, so they took what he has on his standard holders and adapted that for the Marsblades.  Now, what exactly that means, I can't tell you - I'm just the guy that sharpens skates!

😉

[YesLanges 126]

23 minutes ago, Santos L Halper said:

I asked my buddy about that and he said that the Marsblade people told him that whatever profile a skater is currently using likely won't work when s/he moves to the Marsblade holder, so they took what he has on his standard holders and adapted that for the Marsblades.  

Hopefully, they're just wrong about that. Any chance he'd redo the test after letting you do his normal profile on them?