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Skate Mod

ROVER HOCKEY SKATES PROJECT

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20 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Exactly! I’ve seen it first hand. Everything looks great on paper, then you get a prototype and everyone asks what went wrong. Or, you spend months working on solving a problem only to have a MFG engineer tell you your fix won’t work in production.

And there is one person here that already replied that has this same exact experience in the skate design and development process . As was said before, you never know who is who here. 

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On 12/30/2017 at 1:45 PM, Skate Mod said:

We will never see a person that has both enough capital and enough knowledge on the engineering side to bring a high-end hockey skate to the market. There are too many disciplines a person must have to do that, we are too small of an industry to find that person.

The guy who founded VH skates doesn't check the boxes for this?

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On 12/30/2017 at 1:45 PM, Skate Mod said:

We will never see a person that has both enough capital and enough knowledge on the engineering side to bring a high-end hockey skate to the market. There are too many disciplines a person must have to do that, we are too small of an industry to find that person.

Best endorsement for somebody trying to bring a high-end hockey skate to the market ever. 

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On 1/1/2018 at 12:09 AM, IPv6Freely said:

Best endorsement for somebody trying to bring a high-end hockey skate to the market ever. 

We are wasting our thoughts here folks.  The more I think about this the more I think we are getting played.  All our experience combined has offered solid input. In fact really really valuable consulting .  This was an information gathering mission not a funding procurement. The insults  purpose was for us to keep on flowing with The information. He would say some obviously left field thing ,to fish for responses from our group.

 The rendering speaks this to me the most . CAD programs that are around for free can produce much better results.  This should have been done in side ,front, oblique views,  color coded parts labeled with function, indicators of movements .   This looks like a CAD project of a twelve year old  

 

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9 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

We are wasting our thoughts here folks.  The more I think about this the more I think we are getting played.  All our experience combined has offered solid input. In fact really really valuable consulting .  This was an information gathering mission not a funding procurement. The insults  purpose was for us to keep on flowing with The information. He would say some obviously left field thing ,to fish for responses from our group.

 The rendering speaks this to me the most . CAD programs that are around for free can produce much better results.  This should have been done in side ,front, oblique views,  color coded parts labeled with function, indicators of movements .   This looks like a CAD project of a twelve year old  

Something to think about. You're attributing quite a bit of cleverness to this hypothetical scheme.

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1 hour ago, flip12 said:

Something to think about. You're attributing quite a bit of cleverness to this hypothetical scheme.

Yes would take being clever.   What has me going there is no matter what anyone said;  There was no language of , i can see your point, maybe I should rework the proposal. Or taking any technical opinion and replying in a way that isn't dancing.  Using alot of words to say pretty much nothing.  

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... does not really matter if this is an information gathering expedition or not. Not like he is stealing your ideas. I see this more of a looking for approval of his ideas by us hence he defends them so rigorously. He did not get that here, so he is probably trying to get that on some other forum now. It is like that engineer who blames the multimeter for giving him wrong reading instead of accepting that the reading is correct but just not what he has expected it to be. It is sad, and it is why we have so many useless products out there that no body, but a few thought was a great idea.

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41 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

It is sad, and it is why we have so many useless products out there that no body, but a few thought was a great idea.

Spend 20 minutes browsing Kickstarter randomly and you'll see some weird and laughably pointless crap. Now take that concept and apply it to a site like gofundme where even failed projects get their pledges and you see why people would choose that over KS. 

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My replies are long, because I’m replying to everyone with one reply.

The first most important question I would ask here is how confident anyone here that the current engineers at Bauer and CCM, VH are at the top of their game. As I constantly bring up examples of 20 and 30 year old designs and materials being recycled into new designs, and I only mentioned few examples.

I haven’t even gone over their full portfolio including the ODIN one project that was a copy of something else that was publicly visible before they came up with it, and this was a project where they were given no restrictions on budget or mass production yet there was no innovation on the boot at all.

No one can answer that question, because there is nothing to compare them too. Bauer bought out everybody they could have, to me that’s not an accurate measuring stick when we are looking at their 75% market share.

There are many industries where big giant innovative companies are at the top until something new comes a long with disruptive technology. Disruptive does not always mean advanced, it only means it solves problems that exist better.

Hockey is very unique; we cannot compare it to any other industry when it comes to product development because of the feel factor and fit factor, we are not electronics, there are only so many materials that work, and there are so many designs that work. I constantly bring it up in my replies.

That is why we haven’t seen any progress in the past 5-7 years, and we won’t see anything new. And that is why it’s a lot easier to bring product to the market today then 20 years a go, They have narrowed the gap on materials, production methods and designs that can work and feel good.

The only avenue left to explore is very complex geometry applied to the same materials that feel good. This direction would require Bauer, CCM and VH in firing their current engineers and hiring different people with different skill set. And on top of that it would be a different business model with far smaller profit margins after they realize the complexity and cost of manufacturing all these geometric shapes.

 

DarkStar, I’m not fighting with anyone or have personal agenda, I’m fighting for you, for us as an industry which will shrink in 10 years into the size of a Golf industry.

 

For me success in our business is a person that has enough knowledge in many disciplines that are needed for our industry, if that knowledge is too broad he will fail. If that knowledge is too narrow and he only knows only one aspect of the industry, and knows it too well, he will also fail.

That’s why guys like Henry Ford and Steve Jobs and Phil Knight build companies that dominate; the person at the top has that balance of knowing just enough disciplines to plan a head and hire the right people with specific skill set.

When you have a board of directors there is no one person that has that balance and everybody has different level of ambition they want to achieve on short term and long term.

So I don’t need to be a graphic designer to develop a successful product, I don’t need to be a full time engineer to solve a technical problem. I only need to know enough about each discipline where I hire the right person to finalize my vision, my design and my concept. And I have these people on my list that I interact with.

My backround is 15 -20 years of playing hockey and not beginner level, I’m not a pro, but my skating ability is at an advanced level so I have a good sense of the “Feel” factor and how materials effect that Feel - you can’t learn this in school.

 

My backround is reverse engineering skates for 15 years and studying these materials and production methods around them, my back round is studying the orthotic industry for 5 years and interacting with prominent orthopedic surgeons on the effects of orthotic design, shoe design and anything else related to plantar surface. Not to mention my own experiments.

My back round is interacting with computational engineers and parametric engineers that solve complex geometric problems with algorithms in a matter of hours instead of drawing things at a snails pace in CAD for days or weeks.

So when I make a statement about VH Carbon fiber-based skate having a significant long-term effect on the body and possible long-term complication, it’s not something I pulled out of the hat.

The talk about energy transfer is as old as electricity. Action equals reaction, the more energy transfer we have the more we also absorb back from that energy, that is why we are far more injury prone today then ever, because the focus is too narrow minded on weight reduction, too much stiffness and simplified production methods. Stiffness must have balance of being able to absorb it back without paying the price for it. Hockey is not a sprint it’s a marathon, if you skate 5 days per week, longevity wins not short term performance.

 

What I do know is we are at a threshold right now where there are still enough dealers out there that can afford to carry another skate model at a $600 price range. Once we pass that threshold where dealers will disappear or diversify into other categories, we already have that happening, no one will even attempt to bring a skate to the market because they will go bankrupt.

The only reason I can do its because I know what works, what doesn’t work, what idea and design I can follow with my budget , what idea and design I cannot afford to follow from both cost and time management and on top of that I have factory that sees the future well knows that the industry will collapse in 10 years and they will go down with it, so they are willing to cover a lot of my costs, if not, I would not even attempt this venture.

And that is why my rendering are very broad, I cannot afford to show any small improvement publicly that will demise my long term success.

 

The skates we have today work only for 20% of the public, 80% drop out. The fact that we have the same type of player at NHL level proves that theory very well, where we don’t have enough players that skate with fluidity where one motion curves into another motion, we don’t have any agility left. We have the same player that has a short burst of speed in a straight line, then slows down or stops, changes direction and has another burst of speed in a straight line.

 

This is a reflection of skate design and what it allows us to do on the ice from bio-mechanical point of view. And I always go back to Figure skate industry which i always pay attention to as far as what works and what gimmicks they throw away. They are not compromising on anything if it hinders performance and that is why any figure skater can out skate any hockey player with almost half the effort, so all this talk about energy transfer is just talk.

 

And that’s why NHL teams hire figure skating coaches, yet they do not realize that the coach won't solve their problem, only a skate manufacture can do it with the right approach.

 

Cheers.

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10 minutes ago, Skate Mod said:

The first most important question I would ask here is how confident anyone here that the current engineers at Bauer and CCM, VH are at the top of their game. 

A whole hell of a lot more confident in those folks than I am in a random person on the Internet who makes H-shaped cuts in the back of skates. 

If you can't demonstrate why people should invest in your product, rather than just bashing the existing market offerings, then I don't see any reason for this thread to continue. 

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1 hour ago, Skate Mod said:

The only reason I can do its because I know what works, what doesn’t work, what idea and design I can follow with my budget , what idea and design I cannot afford to follow from both cost and time management and on top of that I have factory that sees the future well knows that the industry will collapse in 10 years and they will go down with it, so they are willing to cover a lot of my costs, if not, I would not even attempt this venture.

Bluntly speaking, if you have never undertaken a similar project you only have guesses at what works, what doesn't work, what idea and design can follow a budget, etc. As I've said before, when it comes to product development and manufacturing, you don't know what you don't know. Everyone starts in this position, however, it is a much better attitude to acknowledge one's limited knowledge and experience.

I would also be careful with the factory's apparently generous offer to cover some costs. Frequently there is a breakdown in communications between western individuals and Asian factories. Business is done differently and novice entrepreneurs often get a big wake up call when they suddenly realize the factory was agreeing to something else, there are additional costs, there is a 10K minimum order, etc. and any contract is often lacking in specifics. Maybe you have everything lined up perfectly,  I don't know. However, a factory agreeing to pay substantial costs for a random engineer with no real history doesn't sound realistic. The one exception being that if the factory will be claiming the IP on the new skates. That is common point of disagreement and frequent mistake. An individual comes to a factory with a new idea, the factory spends money helping developing the product and the manufacturing process and then claims the IP. The factory is typically legally correct and will simply offer the now flabbergasted individual the ability to order product.

All this being said, I think I'm probably of the majority opinion of this board in saying the Bauer and CCM have had little innovation in the past dozen years or so and would like to believe some improvements are possible. Some of your ideas, in theory at least, could have some merit. However, your approach has rubbed some the wrong way.

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1 hour ago, Skate Mod said:

My replies are long, because I’m replying to everyone with one reply.

 

 

 

The first most important question I would ask here is how confident anyone here that the current engineers at Bauer and CCM, VH are at the top of their game. As I constantly bring up examples of 20 and 30 year old designs and materials being recycled into new designs, and I only mentioned few examples.

 

 

 

I haven’t even gone over their full portfolio including the ODIN one project that was a copy of something else that was publicly visible before they came up with it, and this was a project where they were given no restrictions on budget or mass production yet there was no innovation on the boot at all.

 

 

 

No one can answer that question, because there is nothing to compare them too. Bauer bought out everybody they could have, to me that’s not an accurate measuring stick when we are looking at their 75% market share.

 

 

 

There are many industries where big giant innovative companies are at the top until something new comes a long with disruptive technology. Disruptive does not always mean advanced, it only means it solves problems that exist better.

 

 

 

Hockey is very unique; we cannot compare it to any other industry when it comes to product development because of the feel factor and fit factor, we are not electronics, there are only so many materials that work, and there are so many designs that work. I constantly bring it up in my replies.

 

 

 

That is why we haven’t seen any progress in the past 5-7 years, and we won’t see anything new. And that is why it’s a lot easier to bring product to the market today then 20 years a go, They have narrowed the gap on materials, production methods and designs that can work and feel good.

 

 

 

The only avenue left to explore is very complex geometry applied to the same materials that feel good. This direction would require Bauer, CCM and VH in firing their current engineers and hiring different people with different skill set. And on top of that it would be a different business model with far smaller profit margins after they realize the complexity and cost of manufacturing all these geometric shapes.

 

 

 

DarkStar, I’m not fighting with anyone or have personal agenda, I’m fighting for you, for us as an industry which will shrink in 10 years into the size of a Golf industry.

 

 

 

 

For me success in our business is a person that has enough knowledge in many disciplines that are needed for our industry, if that knowledge is too broad he will fail. If that knowledge is too narrow and he only knows only one aspect of the industry, and knows it too well, he will also fail.

 

That’s why guys like Henry Ford and Steve Jobs and Phil Knight build companies that dominate; the person at the top has that balance of knowing just enough disciplines to plan a head and hire the right people with specific skill set.

 

 

 

When you have a board of directors there is no one person that has that balance and everybody has different level of ambition they want to achieve on short term and long term.

 

 

 

So I don’t need to be a graphic designer to develop a successful product, I don’t need to be a full time engineer to solve a technical problem. I only need to know enough about each discipline where I hire the right person to finalize my vision, my design and my concept. And I have these people on my list that I interact with.

 

 

 

My backround is 15 -20 years of playing hockey and not beginner level, I’m not a pro, but my skating ability is at an advanced level so I have a good sense of the “Feel” factor and how materials effect that Feel - you can’t learn this in school.

 

 

 

My backround is reverse engineering skates for 15 years and studying these materials and production methods around them, my back round is studying the orthotic industry for 5 years and interacting with prominent orthopedic surgeons on the effects of orthotic design, shoe design and anything else related to plantar surface. Not to mention my own experiments.

 

 

 

My back round is interacting with computational engineers and parametric engineers that solve complex geometric problems with algorithms in a matter of hours instead of drawing things at a snails pace in CAD for days or weeks.

 

 

 

So when I make a statement about VH Carbon fiber-based skate having a significant long-term effect on the body and possible long-term complication, it’s not something I pulled out of the hat.

 

 

 

The talk about energy transfer is as old as electricity. Action equals reaction, the more energy transfer we have the more we also absorb back from that energy, that is why we are far more injury prone today then ever, because the focus is too narrow minded on weight reduction, too much stiffness and simplified production methods. Stiffness must have balance of being able to absorb it back without paying the price for it. Hockey is not a sprint it’s a marathon, if you skate 5 days per week, longevity wins not short term performance.

 

 

 

What I do know is we are at a threshold right now where there are still enough dealers out there that can afford to carry another skate model at a $600 price range. Once we pass that threshold where dealers will disappear or diversify into other categories, we already have that happening, no one will even attempt to bring a skate to the market because they will go bankrupt.

 

 

 

The only reason I can do its because I know what works, what doesn’t work, what idea and design I can follow with my budget , what idea and design I cannot afford to follow from both cost and time management and on top of that I have factory that sees the future well knows that the industry will collapse in 10 years and they will go down with it, so they are willing to cover a lot of my costs, if not, I would not even attempt this venture.

 

 

And that is why my rendering are very broad, I cannot afford to show any small improvement publicly that will demise my long term success.

 

 

The skates we have today work only for 20% of the public, 80% drop out. The fact that we have the same type of player at NHL level proves that theory very well, where we don’t have enough players that skate with fluidity where one motion curves into another motion, we don’t have any agility left. We have the same player that has a short burst of speed in a straight line, then slows down or stops, changes direction and has another burst of speed in a straight line.

 

 

 

This is a reflection of skate design and what it allows us to do on the ice from bio-mechanical point of view. And I always go back to Figure skate industry which i always pay attention to as far as what works and what gimmicks they throw away. They are not compromising on anything if it hinders performance and that is why any figure skater can out skate any hockey player with almost half the effort, so all this talk about energy transfer is just talk.

 

 

 

 

 

And that’s why NHL teams hire figure skating coaches, yet they do not realize that the coach won't solve their problem, only a skate manufacture can do it with the right approach.

 

 

 

Cheers.

 

What a pile of vague long winded waffle. Do you really think that Bauer et al are idiots and you are a genius? 

By the way, contrary to what you suggest, Steve Jobs was neither an engineer, nor a designer. The engineering brains behind Apple was Steve Wozniak who co-founded Apple with Jobs. And Jobs role in Pixar was essentially as a financial backer. He invested large amounts of his own money bankrolling them until they made it big, because he had the courage and foresight to believe in them. He was a genius, but you completely misunderstand his role. 

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13 minutes ago, Leif said:

What a pile of vague long winded waffle. Do you really think that Bauer et al are idiots and you are a genius? 

By the way, contrary to what you suggest, Steve Jobs was neither an engineer, nor a designer. The engineering brains behind Apple was Steve Wozniak who co-founded Apple with Jobs. And Jobs role in Pixar was essentially as a financial backer. He invested large amounts of his own money bankrolling them until they made it big, because he had the courage and foresight to believe in them. He was a genius, but you completely misunderstand his role. 

Apple was saved by the iPod which was an idea stolen from another company (Creative Labs?) but implemented much better. 

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14 minutes ago, boo10 said:

Apple was saved by the iPod which was an idea stolen from another company (Creative Labs?) but implemented much better. 

Being the best is so much more important than being the first. There are a lot of things Apple "stole"... but like you said, implemented in a way where people actually cared. The mouse is another good example. Xerox had the first (commercially available) mouse, but nobody cared until Apple came along three years later with their version. 

And that basically leads into @Leif's point - Jobs was not an engineer or a designer, he was a visionary. "That's a cool idea. I wonder how we could make it into something great."

I'm struggling to see a shred of that visionary within the last couple pages of rambling. I'd love to hear HOW these new skates are going to be disrupting the industry, not just that they someday will.

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2 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

Spend 20 minutes browsing Kickstarter randomly and you'll see some weird and laughably pointless crap. Now take that concept and apply it to a site like gofundme where even failed projects get their pledges and you see why people would choose that over KS. 

No doubt. There are 300+ millions of people live in USA alone, it is not impossible to find few thousand that support even the shittiest and most useless "inventions". Hockey though is a bit different. You have only couple of millions of potential customers most of which have no problems with the  available offerings. Unless your product is something new and actually needed, finding a couple of thousand people to pledge anything becomes impractical pretty quick.

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24 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

Being the best is so much more important than being the first. There are a lot of things Apple "stole"... but like you said, implemented in a way where people actually cared. The mouse is another good example. Xerox had the first (commercially available) mouse, but nobody cared until Apple came along three years later with their version. 

And that basically leads into @Leif's point - Jobs was not an engineer or a designer, he was a visionary. "That's a cool idea. I wonder how we could make it into something great."

I'm struggling to see a shred of that visionary within the last couple pages of rambling. I'd love to hear HOW these new skates are going to be disrupting the industry, not just that they someday will.

Visionary is the word I was looking for. He was also a perfectionist. So many companies release a product that is not easy to use. Apple products are usually well designed in terms of the ‘user experience’ for want of a better phrase, although Windows  is now darned good. 

By the way, the whole look and feel of the Mac OS - Windows Icons Mouse Pointer - came from Xerox Palo Alto. 

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12 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

No doubt. There are 300+ millions of people live in USA alone, it is not impossible to find few thousand that support even the shittiest and most useless "inventions". Hockey though is a bit different. You have only couple of millions of potential customers most of which have no problems with the  available offerings. Unless your product is something new and actually needed, finding a couple of thousand people to pledge anything becomes impractical pretty quick.

One simply has to look at the Sparx as an example of something that was worth backing in the hockey world. They found a niche, they built a business case, they engineered a product, and they delivered. And they used Kickstarter to help fund it. And just like the iPod and the mouse, they took something we've seen before (automated sharpeners) and made them not suck.

11 minutes ago, Leif said:

Visionary is the word I was looking for. He was also a perfectionist. So many companies release a product that is not easy to use. Apple products are usually well designed in terms of the ‘user experience’ for want of a better phrase, although Windows  is now darned good. 

By the way, the whole look and feel of the Mac OS - Windows Icons Mouse Pointer - came from Xerox Palo Alto. 

Absolutely. And it took the Macintosh going Intel before it truly kicked off into the mainstream. The Power PC Macintosh was solid but still pretty niche in the consumer marketplace. And while we're getting off topic, it still ties back to this Rover Skates project in a lot of ways as far as being able to develop something that has been lacking in the industry, and to improve on existing ideas. 

I'd love to see something disrupt the skate industry, even more than VH already has. That would be great. But so far there are SO many red flags with this project! Even if I thought the concept or idea was fantastic I still couldn't possibly invest because I just don't think the ability to execute is there. The defensiveness towards criticism or even just simple questions, the way it's been non-stop talking down to people like they're idiots, and the unwillingness and/or inability to demonstrate the benefits or the execution plan all make me turn and run away in the opposite direction. 

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I have picked on a couple of things, but truth to be told I was never interested in this project. I just think that there is no need in this. Yes this project addresses some issues that might bother few people, but for the most these issues are ignored and are not seeing as such. As I said before Graf has been trying to educate skaters of these long term problems and proper skating mechanics, but apparently no body cares. Graf is still there and they still can make you a pair with improved forward flex and proper heel lock if you have to have that and people that feel this way still go that route. Why would these people consider Rover? (Please don't answer, it is a rhetorical question)

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22 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

Why would these people consider Rover? 

Most importantly, when the answer to this question is; "Because I say so, and I know far more than you," people lose interest and one loses credibility

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1 hour ago, Kgbeast said:

I have picked on a couple of things, but truth to be told I was never interested in this project. I just think that there is no need in this. Yes this project addresses some issues that might bother few people, but for the most these issues are ignored and are not seeing as such. As I said before Graf has been trying to educate skaters of these long term problems and proper skating mechanics, but apparently no body cares. Graf is still there and they still can make you a pair with improved forward flex and proper heel lock if you have to have that and people that feel this way still go that route. Why would these people consider Rover? (Please don't answer, it is a rhetorical question)

Serious question, is Graf still making new skates?

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Not to mention, in your ramblings about companies engineers you failed to mention that Bauer works hand in hand with one of the finest engineering programs in North America at McGill university, so I mean id assume a couple of those guys know a thing or two.

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Did it ever occur to anyone that while MSH is made up of some of the greatest guys and gals that play hockey, we are also not exactly all the greatest hockey players. We may think we but I've seen my video and it's not bringing out the scouts. So if I had this really awesome revolutionary idea for any piece of hockey gear would this actually be the best place to float this idea to future investors. Perhaps I should take my idea to the ultimate end users that would get the greatest benefit, that would give me the best legitimate feedback and have the bank accounts to assist my production of this revolutionary piece of hockey gear. No offense fellas, but I'm going to the pros !! We're a great bunch but how many of you can pony up the scratch? I've collected for beer league teams before and I know about "I'll get you next week.  

 

Seriously, you came here to pitch your idea. I'm flattered but that's silly. 

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27 minutes ago, Davideo said:

Serious question, is Graf still making new skates?

In Europe yes. In North America they have Vaughn running business for them, but it’s unlikely to catch on after so much time making an outdated mediocre product with poor QC and no interest from dealers. There’s just no interest.

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