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VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

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1 hour ago, Sniper9 said:

Mlx skates were off the shelf for consumers and didn't advertise as custom made but heat moldable and altered to feel like they were custom right? If so, then the tow plugs do make sense for them as they are giving the customer every option available to meet their fitting needs without actually making a boot from a scan or mould or even tracing. 

It's weird they had the plugs because the tracing process was the same for VH.  I had MLX custom made in a wider boot.

Possible that they took your specs and made them to an off the shelf boot.  Mine were two different sizes though.

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Maybe that's what they consider as "custom". As in they "customize" the boot for you .. not bespoke per se.. but made to measure 🤔

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7 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Matters for a few reasons.  First and foremost is the establishment of credibility in this community. When one speaks to their own expertise and qualifications some support of that is a reasonable request.  You have, after all, been pretty outspoken.  Second, is the fact that you stated that you were servicing certain teams when typically they are serviced directly through True.  This bears some scrutiny and a follow up as to why the teams would use you and not the manufacturer.  In the end, the community will decide whether it believes you or not and sharing more information about your store and your expertise can only help in that regard,

If at this point I dont have credibility in this community or on Reddit, then there is nothing more I can do to change that. I try to provide insight and input when possible and everything I say or post is my own opinion. There are plenty of people on MS that I am friends with and know personally, there are others that I may not be close friends with, but I do skate with them, other individuals I have provided services to, sold equipment to, etc. I dont feel the need to justify who I am or what I know. I'm not trying to be rude, I just dont see why it matters. 

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21 minutes ago, Nicholas G said:

If at this point I dont have credibility in this community or on Reddit, then there is nothing more I can do to change that. I try to provide insight and input when possible and everything I say or post is my own opinion. There are plenty of people on MS that I am friends with and know personally, there are others that I may not be close friends with, but I do skate with them, other individuals I have provided services to, sold equipment to, etc. I dont feel the need to justify who I am or what I know. I'm not trying to be rude, I just dont see why it matters. 

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Not sure I can help there other than to raise the question of why members both on the forum and on reddit have raised questions about your credibility.   Perhaps it’s because you are too outspoken and present yourself as an expert in many areas.  Perhaps it’s a style thing.  Regardless for your own sake it is worthy of some self examination.  Or, if as you say, you don’t care, then ignore me and others.  That’s fine too.  

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20 minutes ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Perhaps it’s a style thing.  Regardless for your own sake it is worthy of some self examination. 

 

What exactly does this mean? Not sure if anyone has ever told you this before, but, you're rude. Perhaps it is you that needs to perform some self-reflection. 

Edited by Nicholas G

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A friend has had True skates for 8 months. Previously he had Bauer Nexus skates which caused him a lot of foot pain. He still gets pain from the True skates, but much less. The last time I saw him he was talking about re-baking them. What surprised me is that the skates show significant wear of the lining near the top eyelet, such that the lining has worn away to reveal the hard plastics beneath. He skates two hours a week at most. I see the same issue on my mid range Bauers but they are 18 months old and I skate 6+ hours a week including 3 hours hockey. High end Bauer skates have some tough fabric sewn over this region to prevent such wear. I also noticed in one of Nicholas G’s posts that his True skates tore at the back after a few skates. That is a bit shocking. My friend’s skates look good, the outer shell is very tough, they don’t show any obvious marks from other skates whereas my S160 skates are covered in rips and general damage. I presume high end Bauer and CCM skates would have a much tougher shell than mine. The True skates do look a bit home made, but in a good way. 

One aspect did surprise me about Bauer customs and that is that the shop makes more profit from mid range skates which is why this shop does not keep high end skates in stock. After all, when the new range comes out, they would be left with old stock that they would have to sell at a loss, hence overall they might lose money. They don’t stock True skates, so I don’t know how much profit is in those. 

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4 hours ago, Leif said:

A friend has had True skates for 8 months. Previously he had Bauer Nexus skates which caused him a lot of foot pain. He still gets pain from the True skates, but much less. The last time I saw him he was talking about re-baking them. What surprised me is that the skates show significant wear of the lining near the top eyelet, such that the lining has worn away to reveal the hard plastics beneath. He skates two hours a week at most. I see the same issue on my mid range Bauers but they are 18 months old and I skate 6+ hours a week including 3 hours hockey. High end Bauer skates have some tough fabric sewn over this region to prevent such wear. I also noticed in one of Nicholas G’s posts that his True skates tore at the back after a few skates. That is a bit shocking. My friend’s skates look good, the outer shell is very tough, they don’t show any obvious marks from other skates whereas my S160 skates are covered in rips and general damage. I presume high end Bauer and CCM skates would have a much tougher shell than mine. The True skates do look a bit home made, but in a good way. 

One aspect did surprise me about Bauer customs and that is that the shop makes more profit from mid range skates which is why this shop does not keep high end skates in stock. After all, when the new range comes out, they would be left with old stock that they would have to sell at a loss, hence overall they might lose money. They don’t stock True skates, so I don’t know how much profit is in those. 

I had my first pair of VH for 3 years and I've had my second for 2 years, playing 2-3 times a week, and I have no wear in that area. Maybe it has to do with the way he wears his shin pads? The tongues of my skates are tucked under the shin pads, FWIW. Does he flop his tongues?

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On 11/13/2018 at 4:10 AM, Sniper9 said:

My issue is lack of arch not too much arch. As explained in my previous post, my right skate's arch is lower than what I need since I over pronate on my right foot and when I got scanned, i didn't notice but had my foot scanned while over pronated and was more or less flat footed.

So unless I actually add to the arch with pieces of the Eva foam (which I didn't really want to do), I don't really have any other choice but to heat that area up and push the arch area from outside of the boot, up.  This is what I did and it worked well. Used a heat gun and made a subtle but noticeable change. That is another thing I like about the true skates. You can target certain areas of the skate with a heat gun and basically make precise changes to the boot. My over pronation is obviously still an issue since it sometimes makes my right foot feel a bit sloppy bc of the combination of weak ankle ligaments (from an old ankle injury), and just overall poor biomechanics on my right side, but I'm overall very happy with my skates. Theyve def held up really well.  When I pay attention to my biomechanics consciously activating my ankle muscles, the right side actually feels completely locked in. So it might be something where I just need to focus on strengthening my right ankle and working on proper alignment rather than thinking I need to keep tinkering my skate. 

Still trying diff footbeds to see if I can dial them in even more. Will see how the ccm orthomoves are when they come in. I am going to put some speed plateswter this week and test those out.  If nothing really changes with these footbeds, then oh well. 

 

EVA foam actually works very well and is what is used in many custom orthotics (obviously in combination with different thermoplastics as well) but if you are looking to mess around with after market orthotics, I would try superfeet or the older ccm models. These will fit you well out of the box, but I have also had a ton of success with heating the insoles topically to increase / decrease the arch as necessary. Takes a bit of practice but the results are really nice. 

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On 11/13/2018 at 5:20 PM, Leif said:

Maybe orders have slowed down due to custom options now being offered by Bauer and CCM. This is just a guess, and could be nonsense. 

I have been placing more orders than ever and production times are still speeding up. True has worked to better their infrastructure so that skates are coming out at a higher quality while also quicker turnaround. Their new factory was made to optimize growth and productivity, so now they are moving much more efficiently now.  

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2 hours ago, Sk8Stk said:

I have been placing more orders than ever and production times are still speeding up. True has worked to better their infrastructure so that skates are coming out at a higher quality while also quicker turnaround. Their new factory was made to optimize growth and productivity, so now they are moving much more efficiently now.  

Well I can say it has not True has not done so well for me over the past month with two pairs sent back with issues that I don't dare repeat again here and I am now waiting intrepidly for my third pair! What else can I say.

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14 minutes ago, smu said:

Well I can say it has not True has not done so well for me over the past month with two pairs sent back with issues that I don't dare repeat again here and I am now waiting intrepidly for my third pair! What else can I say.

As other members have noted, I believe most of your issues to be a result of the Fit center and not the True factory. I have done over 400+ fittings for recreational  and professional skaters alike and have had minimal issues, especially in the last 6 months. If you continue to have issues after this pair, please reach out via email to me at info@wsskate.com and send pictures of your skates so I can help to remedy any issues that other Fit centers might not be as experienced with.

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4 hours ago, Larry54 said:

I had my first pair of VH for 3 years and I've had my second for 2 years, playing 2-3 times a week, and I have no wear in that area. Maybe it has to do with the way he wears his shin pads? The tongues of my skates are tucked under the shin pads, FWIW. Does he flop his tongues?

I don’t know how he has his shin pads and won’t see him until Thursday. That said, this is caused I assume by the edges of the tongue rubbing against the inside of the skate, assuming it is as per my Bauer skates. 

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2 hours ago, Sk8Stk said:

EVA foam actually works very well and is what is used in many custom orthotics (obviously in combination with different thermoplastics as well) but if you are looking to mess around with after market orthotics, I would try superfeet or the older ccm models. These will fit you well out of the box, but I have also had a ton of success with heating the insoles topically to increase / decrease the arch as necessary. Takes a bit of practice but the results are really nice. 

Did you know that Superfeet along with a touch of arch support has built in posting on the medial (inside towards your other leg) in the heel The arch gives some support, but the trick with posting is to get your ankle to stand straighter in the heel-bed, thus eliminating minor over pronation problems and it does work.

Take a close and careful look at the base of the Superfeet heel area at eye level looking towards the front and you will notice that the bottom of the Superfeet have fluted edges or jagged edges in the bottom of the heel area all around in a horseshoe like manner. The inside edged will show that it has slightly higher material on the this inside edge. This is specifically there to help with pronation by artificially correcting your ankle to pronate less by a small amount because this higher ridge is making your ankle stand straighter up in the heel pocket and skate. It is called posting. Look at your Superfeet and see the higher inside (medial) and then look up "pronation and posting" and you will find out I am correct. Orthotics are one piece deal that incorporates the arch support and the posting all in one!

Superfeet do work well for those that do not have a great deal of problems and they are refundable withing 3 months if you don't like them.

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23 minutes ago, smu said:

Did you know that Superfeet along with a touch of arch support has built in posting on the medial (inside towards your other leg) in the heel The arch gives some support, but the trick with posting is to get your ankle to stand straighter in the heel-bed, thus eliminating minor over pronation problems and it does work.

Take a close and careful look at the base of the Superfeet heel area at eye level looking towards the front and you will notice that the bottom of the Superfeet have fluted edges or jagged edges in the bottom of the heel area all around in a horseshoe like manner. The inside edged will show that it has slightly higher material on the this inside edge. This is specifically there to help with pronation by artificially correcting your ankle to pronate less by a small amount because this higher ridge is making your ankle stand straighter up in the heel pocket and skate. It is called posting. Look at your Superfeet and see the higher inside (medial) and then look up "pronation and posting" and you will find out I am correct. Orthotics are one piece deal that incorporates the arch support and the posting all in one!

Superfeet do work well for those that do not have a great deal of problems and they are refundable withing 3 months if you don't like them.

The carbons aren't as stable and almost rocker since the bottom is round and the posts aren't as stable as the regular superfeet yellows. I actually prefer the yellows over the carbons due to what u described. 

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1 hour ago, smu said:

Did you know that Superfeet along with a touch of arch support has built in posting on the medial (inside towards your other leg) in the heel The arch gives some support, but the trick with posting is to get your ankle to stand straighter in the heel-bed, thus eliminating minor over pronation problems and it does work.

Take a close and careful look at the base of the Superfeet heel area at eye level looking towards the front and you will notice that the bottom of the Superfeet have fluted edges or jagged edges in the bottom of the heel area all around in a horseshoe like manner. The inside edged will show that it has slightly higher material on the this inside edge. This is specifically there to help with pronation by artificially correcting your ankle to pronate less by a small amount because this higher ridge is making your ankle stand straighter up in the heel pocket and skate. It is called posting. Look at your Superfeet and see the higher inside (medial) and then look up "pronation and posting" and you will find out I am correct. Orthotics are one piece deal that incorporates the arch support and the posting all in one!

Superfeet do work well for those that do not have a great deal of problems and they are refundable withing 3 months if you don't like them.

Yep, very aware of all technology present in superfeet. I would say the posting is often more valuable than the arch support. We make our own custom orthotics for skating that incorporate everything you are describing. I was simply saying that if a customer did not want to add eva foam to a stock true insole to achieve more arch contact, superfeet can be adjusted to further address this issue at a significantly lower price point. 

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1 minute ago, Sk8Stk said:

Yep, very aware of all technology present in superfeet. I would say the posting is often more valuable than the arch support. We make our own custom orthotics for skating that incorporate everything you are describing. I was simply saying that if a customer did not want to add eva foam to a stock true insole to achieve more arch contact, superfeet can be adjusted to further address this issue at a significantly lower price point. 

I've been running superfeet since day one of getting these skates and the superfeet itself didn't help with increasing arch contact. The only thing that worked for me was heating the area up in the boot and creating more of an arch. With that said, as I mentioned, I didn't want to add pieces of Eva foam to my insole or skate as I wanted the fit to be more about the boot itself instead of a pieces of foam being added ot taken away. 

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Btw sk8stk, do u know what the thickness of the red Eva foam is. Is it 1 or 2 mm?

Edited by Sniper9
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15 hours ago, Leif said:

I don’t know how he has his shin pads and won’t see him until Thursday. That said, this is caused I assume by the edges of the tongue rubbing against the inside of the skate, assuming it is as per my Bauer skates. 

99% of the time it's not the tongue that causes the wear, it's how open the boot is at the top and how the shin guards fit. You get one side of the shin guard that just slips inside one side of the boot and this will destroy the lining at the top of the boot really fast.  

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16 hours ago, Sk8Stk said:

As other members have noted, I believe most of your issues to be a result of the Fit center and not the True factory. I have done over 400+ fittings for recreational  and professional skaters alike and have had minimal issues, especially in the last 6 months. If you continue to have issues after this pair, please reach out via email to me at info@wsskate.com and send pictures of your skates so I can help to remedy any issues that other Fit centers might not be as experienced with.

There is nothing any fit center anywhere in the world could have done to fix these skates. Even if it was a scanner screw up the first time, when the skates went back the second time with the fitting center comments attached, they should never have come back with foam in the toe box as the fix. I have seen the photos of how these fit on him, when he can fit 2 fingers down the back of his heel when his toes are brushing the toe box, when the heel inserts he has that fit ok in his size 5 Bauers are put in the Trues and they slop from side to side by around 5mm, when he can fit a finger down the side of his ankle with his foot in the boot, and when his foot slops around in the boot so much when it is done up that he can hardly feel the tops of the boot then it's a triple whammy, length, width and volume were all wrong and wrong by a long long way. These were so far out the first thing I thought of was that True must have sent him skates made for someone else who was around 2+ sizes bigger all over. Now if the scanner can be this far out then True have some serious issues with the software.

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18 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

The carbons aren't as stable and almost rocker since the bottom is round and the posts aren't as stable as the regular superfeet yellows. I actually prefer the yellows over the carbons due to what u described. 

I should have known by now that people are more aware of pronation issues and what Superfeet do for them, I will be aware next time.

I had the same issue that is in this post not having a great time with the Carbons although I understand some find them great!

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2 hours ago, Vet88 said:

99% of the time it's not the tongue that causes the wear, it's how open the boot is at the top and how the shin guards fit. You get one side of the shin guard that just slips inside one side of the boot and this will destroy the lining at the top of the boot really fast.  

I will ask Tom on Thursday when I next see him, though he might be away on business. In the case of my skates there is severe wear on the tongue in the corresponding locations, indicating that the tongue is the cause of the worn lining. 

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4 hours ago, Vet88 said:

There is nothing any fit center anywhere in the world could have done to fix these skates. Even if it was a scanner screw up the first time, when the skates went back the second time with the fitting center comments attached, they should never have come back with foam in the toe box as the fix. I have seen the photos of how these fit on him, when he can fit 2 fingers down the back of his heel when his toes are brushing the toe box, when the heel inserts he has that fit ok in his size 5 Bauers are put in the Trues and they slop from side to side by around 5mm, when he can fit a finger down the side of his ankle with his foot in the boot, and when his foot slops around in the boot so much when it is done up that he can hardly feel the tops of the boot then it's a triple whammy, length, width and volume were all wrong and wrong by a long long way. These were so far out the first thing I thought of was that True must have sent him skates made for someone else who was around 2+ sizes bigger all over. Now if the scanner can be this far out then True have some serious issues with the software.

“Serious issues” with the software is a bit vague, if you are not diligent with the fitting process or have not calibrated your scanner properly via the iPad app, it is very possible to get incorrect measurements. This is the exact same protocol for CCM custom skates, as they share software. As I said, I have not seen the skates and have not spoken to the factory about this pair, but that is never something I have come across when working with them. So it’s pretty obvious there was miscommunication of some type here. I can assure you True did not send him someone else’s skates, all of the skates are scanned with customers personal information to avoid just that. I am not saying that I can fix any skate in the world, I am saying that I frequently get sent customers that went to other Fit centers that received skates that were obviously fit improperly, and I handle the re-fitting myself and the second pair comes perfect. 

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5 hours ago, Sk8Stk said:

“Serious issues” with the software is a bit vague, if you are not diligent with the fitting process or have not calibrated your scanner properly via the iPad app, it is very possible to get incorrect measurements. This is the exact same protocol for CCM custom skates, as they share software. As I said, I have not seen the skates and have not spoken to the factory about this pair, but that is never something I have come across when working with them. So it’s pretty obvious there was miscommunication of some type here. I can assure you True did not send him someone else’s skates, all of the skates are scanned with customers personal information to avoid just that. I am not saying that I can fix any skate in the world, I am saying that I frequently get sent customers that went to other Fit centers that received skates that were obviously fit improperly, and I handle the re-fitting myself and the second pair comes perfect. 

 

Read on!  The first pair of Skates I received had insoles or foot-beds reading #7. With the second pair with and nothing changed except for some stuffing inside the toe box the foot-bed reads #6. Is this just a coincidence? "If the shoe fits, wear it" I am sure there will be a good explanation about this.

1) When my first pair of skates were ordered specific Instructions were given about what was needed to fit my small narrow foot, in particular my narrow heel area and that skates in the LHS were tried on and True was told that my Bauer size 5 D skates fit well, but were too wide and I needed a skate for a narrow foot, thus the reason for getting Trues as well as for pronation issue. I even tried on a 4.5 Tack on and that fit except it was a D width and was too wide in the heel area as well.

Just from this description alone a better pair of skates could have been made without a scan! My toe came nowhere near the toe cap and I could not feel anything and after lacing up they just felt huge. I guessed, by pulling my toe up that I was just about one inch from the end of the toe box! Plus, the holders and rivets were crooked as well and both blades had a bend in them from the misaligned holders. Why should this be even happening!?

To understand how long these skates were I have photos with two fingers touching the end of the heel bottom with two fingers and my foot in the skate, also I could slip the skates of and on and still have the laces through all the eyelets. Try that one and see where it gets you! I have photos of my Bauer siting beside the True skate and it would blow your mind away! I had heel wedges in my Bauer skates that were 2" wide exactly and I used these to off-set pronation as they had a 1º slope from one side to the other. My heel area in the True skates were over 3/8" wider and I am being kind. We asked for a narrow heel area! Even my Superfeet could be slid from side to side showing how wide these skates were to mine. I felt that the skate were closer to a 7 than anything else and that was my guess until the next sentence.

The foot-beds that came with the Trues were there, but it was not until I got home did I realize the number 7 was on the bottom, what else could that mean other than a size 7 skate. More on this in the part where I receive the second skate

These are sent back stating the issues and I had said to my LHS I don't want skates that are too long for me, I want as short as possible and I certainly don't want stuffing in the toe to make me feel like they fit. As I have said they could have made a better pair by just what they were told about my old Bauer's that were perfect fit, but too wide!

2) Second Pair and I cringe!

I get my second pair of skates and I can see immediately that they are the EXACT same skates! The same look and feel with the holders still bent along with the blades, but I tried them on for the sake of the LHS. Right away I could feel something in the toe area, but not much, but it did feel a little better as I could feel my toes just about touching something. As soon as soon as I started to lace my heel was pulled back immediately and the toe feel was gone in a split second, but this did not lock the heel in. It was sloppy and walking around they still felt very large and for some reason the left felt larger. The skate must have had something added to it, but what I was not sure we did not go further with it. It was my thoughts they were going back regardless because they still were not my size etc. This time, along with the with the LHS I looked at the bottom of the insole and now it says size 6 was this just coincidence? True says they do not go by foot size. 

Added - I forgot to say that I had no idea or proof that something was added to the toe until I got home and was playing with the tongue that can be removed with the Velcro and then noticed that I could feel a piece of tape. hanging. It was lose so I pulled at it and out came two spongy rubber pieces about two inches long by an inch wide and held there with masking tape of all things. I have a photo of these with a ruler beside them. If a fix was going to be made I would make it much, much better than this, it is as bad as the crooked holders!

True now tells you that the size you pay for is the determined by the size of the holder that gets mounted on your boot. It is funny, but I usually get the Junior discount for having a small foot. With this True boot, with an extra long toe and larger and huge holder (I am told), takes a skate blade 8 mm longer than my Bauer blade. They now can say that it is a Senior skate. If the skates had of been my size and everything was OK I would not have minded paying a Senior price knowing I would rid myself of my pronation issue, but not now! My skate should have been shorter without an extra length of toe to accommodate a senior blade and as you can see I feel that they just screwed up completely.

To sell an unfit skate is negligence and could have consequences if I had hurt myself on the ice by all these errors. I did get on the ice with them and they were too long and difficult to skate in, being too big and with the blades being warped, but I just took it real careful and then left the ice. I could hear the blades make a funny sound when stopping indicating they were warped or bent! This was confirmed by using a straight edge.

I have been told directly from a person at True that holders are put on by hand as in "custom made" and not an assembly line. How do holders get on crooked with rivets crooked as well if a real person was doing his or her job correctly or are some done on an assembly line?

Now going back a third time is a real downer, I have literally lost 12 games that I could have really enjoyed if the first pair of skates were properly made. I am frightened now just to see a third pair and wonder if it is going to fit right.

Edited by smu
one speeling and added a paragraph that I forgot error in language
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4 hours ago, Sk8Stk said:

. As I said, I have not seen the skates and have not spoken to the factory about this pair, but that is never something I have come across when working with them. 

Another very experienced True fitter has already indicated in this thread how he has received skates from True that had a similar story to smu. Saying it never happens doesn't make it so. Now if there was some visibility of True reaching out to the LHS to understand what went wrong and why and feeding this back into the fitment process to improve things then that in itself would be good customer feedback. But saying that you get sent skates that other fitting centers can't get right isn't a great overall look for the process, whilst it may be good for your business how can a member of the public have a high degree of trust in other fitting centers?

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