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2nhockey

Picking a Profile

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I finally replaced my CCM Ribcore skates with a shiny new pair of Bauer Supreme S180's. Got them baked, sharpened, and 2 days later I played 2 hours of drop-in. Skates felt great. I've followed that up with 2 games, now and am playing again tomorrow night. Overall I'm happy with the skates. Except... it happens a few times every time I skate where I'll be skating along and I'll suddenly feel like I'm falling backwards. At first I thought I just needed to get used to the new skates. But I think there's more to it. So I think I need the skates profiled. But how do I know what profile I need?

Thanks!

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5 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

I finally replaced my CCM Ribcore skates with a shiny new pair of Bauer Supreme S180's. Got them baked, sharpened, and 2 days later I played 2 hours of drop-in. Skates felt great. I've followed that up with 2 games, now and am playing again tomorrow night. Overall I'm happy with the skates. Except... it happens a few times every time I skate where I'll be skating along and I'll suddenly feel like I'm falling backwards. At first I thought I just needed to get used to the new skates. But I think there's more to it. So I think I need the skates profiled. But how do I know what profile I need?

Thanks!

Someone else more knowledgeable about manufacturers stock profiles can chime in here but I believe both are 10' but the Ribcores are pitched about 1 degree further forward. If this is correct then you have a number of options: 1: continue to skate till you get used to it (as most people do) 2: Go for something like a 9' / 11' combo (will pitch you more forward with more blade at the rear) 3: Shift the center back (will give you a little bit more forward pitch and more blade on the ice at the rear) 4: Add a shim to the back (most probably the best option if you want to keep everything else stock and get close to the Ribcore balance). 

If you do change anything do it one step at a time, worst thing you could do is go for a shim and a combo and a center move all at the same time.

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I felt the same way on my Supreme 180s as well as Nexus N9000.  Bob at NoIcing Sports ultimately ended up recommending a 8'/13' w/ minor forward pitch and that fixed me right up. 

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What profile you choose will depend on what issues you want to address. From your brief description, it could be something to do with your pitch. Bauers are pitched more backward when compared to CCMs, so they'll put you back on your heels more. 

The first thing I'd try is to pitch them forward +1 and see what that does for you before going too complicated.

I went from Ribcores to Nexus in my last skate upgrade. I found that I was having issues with stability and bite. I never had my skates profiled before so I kept things simple as possible. I went from the stock 10' radius to a 12' radius and did a +1 pitch. Worked like a charm.  

 

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You can also try a new insole, something like Superfeet yellow or Carbon will lift the heel in the boot slightly and might make you feel more comfortable.  I did this with my Vapors when I got them since I had a similar feeling of leaning backwards, it was just enough to make me feel right again.

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Typically for Supremes, if everything feels good except for pitch, I would put in a heel lift.  It's inexpensive and doesn't affect steel life.  

Whenever I wear a Supreme skate, I put one in immediately.

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4 hours ago, puckpilot said:

What profile you choose will depend on what issues you want to address. From your brief description, it could be something to do with your pitch. Bauers are pitched more backward when compared to CCMs, so they'll put you back on your heels more. 

The first thing I'd try is to pitch them forward +1 and see what that does for you before going too complicated.

I went from Ribcores to Nexus in my last skate upgrade. I found that I was having issues with stability and bite. I never had my skates profiled before so I kept things simple as possible. I went from the stock 10' radius to a 12' radius and did a +1 pitch. Worked like a charm.  

 

I really liked what you had to say here, but Vapors are definitely more forward than Supremes or Nexus.  They are more pitched than most CCMs I believe.

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I like the heel left approach too. It’s nice that it becomes a constant, not a variable the steel is.

As for what profile to pick. It’s sort of like the profile picks you. I recently had the opportunity to demo three different profiles. While all of them felt better than my stock LS4. One just felt better than the rest. That profile just suited my skating better than the rest. If you can get yourself a second set of steel. Leave one set stock and have the other profiled. That gives you a good A B test.

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Thanks for the feedback. I'll see what I can find locally for a heel lift. How much of a lift should I look for?

I was hoping to avoid a lot of trial and error for the lift and steel profile but I am gathering that is unlikely?

Skated last night and I just felt a lot like I was falling backward. Tough to skate, actually. I felt like i was just a mess with everything from puck handling to skating. So I'm headed out to see if I can get that corrected soon.

What about a radius change to, like, a 9'? Or 11'?

Thanks again! 

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2 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

Thanks for the feedback. I'll see what I can find locally for a heel lift. How much of a lift should I look for?

I was hoping to avoid a lot of trial and error for the lift and steel profile but I am gathering that is unlikely?

Skated last night and I just felt a lot like I was falling backward. Tough to skate, actually. I felt like i was just a mess with everything from puck handling to skating. So I'm headed out to see if I can get that corrected soon.

What about a radius change to, like, a 9'? Or 11'?

Thanks again! 

Going to a longer radius may help a little, but you'll like introduce other issues in the process.

I you want to try something simple, switch to a innersole with a thicker heel, like say some Superfeet. This changes the fit a bit so just be warned. It may even require a re-bake.

You should contact the MSH Pro Shop, I believe they do heel lifts.

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I have a question if it's alright to piggyback on this thread.

 

I just bought new skates for my 11 year old son and need to pick a profile. He's a good skater, plays Minnesota A level association hockey in the winter and AAA in the spring and summer. He's a typical kid who's not going to give good feedback to his father. He'll be in a pair of Bauer Supreme Ignite Pro +. Basically an S190. No idea what steel we'll use. LS4, Step, or Tydan, not sure yet. He's a smooth skater, not real quick feet. He play's forward, defense, and goalie (with goalie skates of course).

 

How do I pick a profile for so he can improve his skating?

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1 hour ago, 218hockey said:

[snip]

 

How do I pick a profile for so he can improve his skating?

Full disclosure at the outset - in addition to my 'day job' as a youth hockey coach, I'm also a skating coach, so what I would say on this may not be quite the same as what an equipment guy would say...

Anyway.

From my perspective (again...skating coach...), this is an almost impossible question to answer without seeing your son skate.  Here are just a few of the things I'd be looking at:

  • How tall is he?
  • How much does he weigh?
  • How big are his feet?
  • What blade size are you dealing with?
  • How is his posture in his skates? How is his posture in street shoes?
  • What's his balance like on 2 feet?  On each foot independently?
  • What is his natural forward lean like? 
  • Does he sit down into a deep 'ready' position naturally? Or is he naturally more upright?
  • Is he noticeably slower (or faster) than his peers?
  • How are his forwards cross-overs? 
  • How are his backwards cross-unders?
  • How are his transitions? 
  • What is his hip angle at full extension? At full crouch? 
  • What is his knee angle at full extension?  At full crouch?
  • How is his balance in his tight turns? 
  • How is his edgework?  No.  Really.  How is his edgework?
  • Are there mechanical flaws in his skating technique that limit him?  Are they easily corrected?  Would a new profile help...or hurt?
  • Are there physical strength/mobility limitations that prevent him from executing a proper stride?  Can these be addressed via strength/flexibility training?
  • What does HE want out of a new profile? (More speed? better acceleration? More stability?)  

And, most importantly....

  • What do his regular coaches say he needs to work on when it comes to skating? 

I could go on...and on...and on some more.  And, the stink of it is, there's really no 'one size fits all' solution, here.  From a skating coach's perspective, I want my clients to have skates (and, by proxy, profiles) that work with them; instead of working against them...but, at the same time, I know that profiling skates isn't a panacea and a good profile won't all of the sudden turn a crappy skater into a good skater.  

As such, without seeing your son skate, I'd suggest you focus on the last two bullet-points and try to figure out what exactly your son and his coaches would like to see him improve about his skating. THEN, take that feedback (ideally, along with a video of his forward stride, forward cross-overs, backward cross-unders, linear cross-overs, and tight turns) and contact JR or the guys at Tydans or the guys at Step and say something like, "here's my kid's height, weight, holder size, coach feedback, and a 60 second video of him skating - what do you recommend for a profile that can help him improve?"  THEN, buy a second set of steel from your vendor and have that profiled according to their recommendations.  THEN, have your son try it out.  

If he and his coaches like it, great.  Have your other set of steel profiled to match the original set and you're good to go.  If they DON'T like it, then you start the "A vs B...B vs C...C vs A...etc...etc...etc..." comparison with the second set.  Dialing things in can take time and if you have to send your kid's blades away to be profiled, this can be a frustrating (and expensive) period of trial and error.  However, you live in MN...so, perhaps you have access to a shop that understands profiling and can help you reduce the turn-around time to a matter of hours, instead of a matter of days?

Anyway.  I know - much to consider there; but, as a skating coach, this is really one of those "you really need to be there" type of questions....

(If it matters, my son is a Tier I Elite 2009 birth-year player with EXTREMELY strong edgework and fundamentals - but he struggles with his top speed and maintenance of proper skating posture due to still-developing leg strength.  At the recommendation of several MSH members, I went with a CAGOne 20-35 profile for his new skates and we BOTH have been very happy thus far...)

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After all that great information Santos L Halper here is the issue with some of the last comments. 

 

Putting a Cag Profile on a skate that has not been adjusted for contour or pitch is not profiling the skate. Its simply putting a flat spot on a blade that may or may not have the correct profile as mentioned in your comments above. 

 

Secondly Step or Tyden cannot or could not recommend a profile as you suggest because neither do the evaluations on the ice or from video as you suggest and I believe you are 1000% right seeing the player is the best way to see what the issues are from ill-fitting skates to profile to blade alignment to the pitch. You have some great questions and would love to chat about some of them more. Working with some of the best NHL skating coaches around this is exactly how they work with myself and their players. 

Thanks for the great information and questions!

 

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2 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

After all that great information Santos L Halper here is the issue with some of the last comments. 

 

Putting a Cag Profile on a skate that has not been adjusted for contour or pitch is not profiling the skate. Its simply putting a flat spot on a blade that may or may not have the correct profile as mentioned in your comments above. 

[snip]

 

Fair point.  Again - I'm a skating coach, not an equipment guy.  I have a rudimentary understanding of profiling and how it works in the context of allowing a skater to maximize his/her potential; but I do not pretend to understand the finer points of one profile vs another. 

When it comes to the example I used (my kid), my analysis of his skating technique showed (amongst other things) a need for a more consistent forward lean, particularly as he got tired.  Additionally, his coach and I both agreed that his edgework was good enough that sacrificing a bit of potential mobility for added top end speed was a trade-off worth making - particularly as his leg strength continues to build as his body changes. As such, when it came time for new skates, I asked the MSH group what they would recommend for a baseline profile and was recommended doing the Cag 20-35 with a slight forward pitch.  

Tyler at Tyden's confirmed that this was a great starting point and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

2 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

[snip]

Secondly Step or Tyden cannot or could not recommend a profile as you suggest because neither do the evaluations on the ice or from video as you suggest

[snip]

 

Well, they *CAN* recommend profiles.  However, as we've confirmed, it's impossible to really do that effectively if you can't actually see someone on the ice.  In my case, I already had a good idea of the direction I wanted to go with my son's profile and Tyler at Tyden's confirmed that I was going down the correct path. 

As such, I stand corrected - Step and Tyden's don't watch videos in order to recommend a profile.  That said, both myself and multiple clients of mine have found that if you ask both Step and Tyden's about the suitability of a particular profile for your needs, they're more than happy to discuss it with you.  

 

3 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

[snip]

You have some great questions and would love to chat about some of them more. Working with some of the best NHL skating coaches around this is exactly how they work with myself and their players. 

Thanks for the great information and questions!

 

PM me any time!  I love to discuss skating biomechanics and skating!

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On 6/26/2018 at 6:12 PM, Santos L Halper said:

From my perspective (again...skating coach...), this is an almost impossible question to answer without seeing your son skate.  Here are just a few of the things I'd be looking at:

  • How tall is he?
  • How much does he weigh?
  • How big are his feet?
  • What blade size are you dealing with?
  • How is his posture in his skates? How is his posture in street shoes?
  • What's his balance like on 2 feet?  On each foot independently?
  • What is his natural forward lean like? 
  • Does he sit down into a deep 'ready' position naturally? Or is he naturally more upright?
  • Is he noticeably slower (or faster) than his peers?
  • How are his forwards cross-overs? 
  • How are his backwards cross-unders?
  • How are his transitions? 
  • What is his hip angle at full extension? At full crouch? 
  • What is his knee angle at full extension?  At full crouch?
  • How is his balance in his tight turns? 
  • How is his edgework?  No.  Really.  How is his edgework?
  • Are there mechanical flaws in his skating technique that limit him?  Are they easily corrected?  Would a new profile help...or hurt?
  • Are there physical strength/mobility limitations that prevent him from executing a proper stride?  Can these be addressed via strength/flexibility training?
  • What does HE want out of a new profile? (More speed? better acceleration? More stability?)  

And, most importantly....

  • What do his regular coaches say he needs to work on when it comes to skating?

Thanks for the great reply, it made me chuckle. I could answer the first four questions, that's it. I'm not a skating instructor, he doesn't have "regular" coaches and I have no video.

 

But I do have to get his new skates ready in the next few weeks.

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