New skates lost heel lock after baking

[BlueNux 17]

I got new Jetspeed FT370 skates a few weeks back.

The skates felt comfortable before being baked (perhaps too comfy) and the reputable LHS I went to tightened them incredibly tight during the baking process, even using a lace tightener.

The bauer bump I have continues to get aggravated - the very reason I got new skates. At this point, the skates are hilariously lacking in heel lock. These were my first heat moldable skates and had no idea that skates expand this much.

Has anyone experienced this before? Was there an issue during my baking process? Jetspeeds were supposed to be great for heel lock and I now feel out of options. If anyone has had similar issues, what did you do? I absolutely hate wearing bunga pads - they dampen the feel of the ice.

I tried the FT1s again and they do have a tighter heel lock, but lack volume (which may give a false sense of heel lock). I thought all the high end skates fit similarly across price points, but apparently not. I took a ruler and measured the distance from the bottom of the FT1 and FT370 to the middle of their 5th/6th eyelets and noticed nearly a quarter inch difference! I also don't think the heel lock difference was big enough to not experience the same issue after baking.

Edited June 28, 2018 by BlueNux

[Vet88 673]

It could be a number of things, any of these are impossible to determine unless one sees you skate and can look at the shape of your foot, stance etc.

However lets address this chestnut - getting new skates generally isn't going stop the aggravation of your Bauer bump. Depending on the shape of the boot heel and the amount of padding in there a new skate can make it much worse. The only way to stop your bump from hurting is to remove any pressure on it (or get the bump removed). The cure I have found for skating with a Bauer bump is a 5 pronged approach 1: punch the hell out of the heel to create a pocket and a channel for the bump to sit in (I've done this in my MX3's, APX2's, Jetspeeds, Alkali's and others. I even cut part of the quarter panel out of a pair of Graf Ultras, this did work but it's a radical approach . 2: Pick a skate with straight heel eg like a one100. Now your bump doesn't have anything to bang against if the heel lifts slightly in the pocket. 3: Throw your laces away (and teach yourself how to skate properly, more on this later) 4: Wear ezyfit booties and bunga heel pads to protect the bump. 5: A combination of 1, 2, 3 or 4. 2, 3 and 4 is my current approach, I skate in one100s with no laces (to train) and to play I lace up the bottom and 3rd eyelet up only. The bump on my left heel tolerates this and the right heel is ok (had the bump removed last September) even though I still can't tolerate tight fitting shoes. Once your bump gets to a certain stage of aggravation (insertional tendonitis), you just can't jam / lock the heel into the pocket any more......

Then there is the issue of why you have a bump. Research I've been involved with and read is that if you have narrow heels (which from your post it sounds like you have) and pronate (narrow heels, volume issues and pronation is very common) you have a very high percentage of developing some kind of bump. It is caused by your foot rolling in the skate (even with the laces done as tight as you can), this leads to no heel lock, increased roll and heel lift, the outside of your heel smashing against the side of the skate every time you stride / corner etc and the body reacts over time by adding more bone to the area. FT370's are a low mid range skate, not the stiffest so any roll in your foot is going to put pressure on the sides of the heel pocket and cause it to open up quickly. I'm not saying this is why you now have no heel lock but it could be a factor.

Making no comment on how the LHS fitted you, to get a better heel lock here is something that may work, it has for me and others. Get a heat gun and heat up the inside rear quarter of the skate (don't heat the other side of the skate), once it goes soft put it on, lace up firm then lie on the floor with the outside of the skate lying on the floor. Now get someone, without shoes on, to stand on the inside area of the heel and ankle. This will shape the boot to your inside heel / ankle shape and if you pronate slightly it will have the same effect as moving the blade holder slightly inwards. Next day go for a skate, if you are still unhappy with the lock and the way the boot feels on your feet, do the same for the outside rear quarter of the skate. However moving a panel inwards from its natural shape means over time it will eventually move out again. I'd suggest you need to eventually find a boot that has a really tight heel lock in the first place but if FT1's aren't doing it for you then you may need to go the custom route (or try 50k's, they have one of the narrowest heels in retail boots).

If you have volume issues stop stressing about getting a boot that fixes it. Find a boot that fits you for shape, length, heel lock. Tight spots get punched, volume can be addressed with eyelet extenders. Now you can go out and find the best retail boot fit wise for your foot without worrying about volume. If you want to test the heel lock, take the laces out and put the boot on. If the overall fit, length and heel lock is good, you should be able to lift your foot in the air and shake it around without the boot falling off your foot.

And if you pronate it can be addressed in various ways, it all depends on how much you skate and how much effort you want to put into fixing it. My approach is no laces, strengthen the ankles / calves / hips (backward one foot skating drills until your legs die of fatigue), learn to skate over the center of the blade and control the roll of your foot across the blade. But this takes time, dedication and hours and hours of practice. Others move the holders inwards, even for the pros. I was talking to an EM last week who did this for Dougie Hamilton.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I was talking to an EM last week who did this for Dougie Hamilton.

Hmmm was I talking to you last week?? I used to do Dougs skates growing up till he was drafted in Boston. 

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

1 hour ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

I was talking to an EM last week who did this for Dougie Hamilton.

Hmmm was I talking to you last week?? I used to do Dougs skates growing up till he was drafted in Boston. 

He's in New Zealand.

LOL that's funny.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Thst is

[Vet88 673]

5 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Thst is

Haha, with the challenges they have had on this tour (here is just one - the rink you book to go from the US to New Zealand ends up in Bolivia and then gets seized by Columbian customs officials as it transits thru their country!) be glad you aren't here. The guy I was talking to works for True (he used to be involved with the Bruins) and he is on the tour as their EM (as well as wearing his True hat), we had a wide ranging discussion about all things to do with skates, players, sharpeners, etc. Hell of a sharpener, overall consensus from players who have had skates sharpened by him is that they are up there with the best they have ever had. Sorry Sparx fans but he was not at all complimentary about the Sparx or Keith. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Vet88

[BlueNux 17]

11 hours ago, Vet88 said:

It could be a number of things, any of these are impossible to determine unless one sees you skate and can look at the shape of your foot, stance etc.

However lets address this chestnut - getting new skates generally isn't going stop the aggravation of your Bauer bump. Depending on the shape of the boot heel and the amount of padding in there a new skate can make it much worse. The only way to stop your bump from hurting is to remove any pressure on it (or get the bump removed). The cure I have found for skating with a Bauer bump is a 5 pronged approach 1: punch the hell out of the heel to create a pocket and a channel for the bump to sit in (I've done this in my MX3's, APX2's, Jetspeeds, Alkali's and others. I even cut part of the quarter panel out of a pair of Graf Ultras, this did work but it's a radical approach . 2: Pick a skate with straight heel eg like a one100. Now your bump doesn't have anything to bang against if the heel lifts slightly in the pocket. 3: Throw your laces away (and teach yourself how to skate properly, more on this later) 4: Wear ezyfit booties and bunga heel pads to protect the bump. 5: A combination of 1, 2, 3 or 4. 2, 3 and 4 is my current approach, I skate in one100s with no laces (to train) and to play I lace up the bottom and 3rd eyelet up only. The bump on my left heel tolerates this and the right heel is ok (had the bump removed last September) even though I still can't tolerate tight fitting shoes. Once your bump gets to a certain stage of aggravation (insertional tendonitis), you just can't jam / lock the heel into the pocket any more......

Then there is the issue of why you have a bump. Research I've been involved with and read is that if you have narrow heels (which from your post it sounds like you have) and pronate (narrow heels, volume issues and pronation is very common) you have a very high percentage of developing some kind of bump. It is caused by your foot rolling in the skate (even with the laces done as tight as you can), this leads to no heel lock, increased roll and heel lift, the outside of your heel smashing against the side of the skate every time you stride / corner etc and the body reacts over time by adding more bone to the area. FT370's are a low mid range skate, not the stiffest so any roll in your foot is going to put pressure on the sides of the heel pocket and cause it to open up quickly. I'm not saying this is why you now have no heel lock but it could be a factor.

Making no comment on how the LHS fitted you, to get a better heel lock here is something that may work, it has for me and others. Get a heat gun and heat up the inside rear quarter of the skate (don't heat the other side of the skate), once it goes soft put it on, lace up firm then lie on the floor with the outside of the skate lying on the floor. Now get someone, without shoes on, to stand on the inside area of the heel and ankle. This will shape the boot to your inside heel / ankle shape and if you pronate slightly it will have the same effect as moving the blade holder slightly inwards. Next day go for a skate, if you are still unhappy with the lock and the way the boot feels on your feet, do the same for the outside rear quarter of the skate. However moving a panel inwards from its natural shape means over time it will eventually move out again. I'd suggest you need to eventually find a boot that has a really tight heel lock in the first place but if FT1's aren't doing it for you then you may need to go the custom route (or try 50k's, they have one of the narrowest heels in retail boots).

If you have volume issues stop stressing about getting a boot that fixes it. Find a boot that fits you for shape, length, heel lock. Tight spots get punched, volume can be addressed with eyelet extenders. Now you can go out and find the best retail boot fit wise for your foot without worrying about volume. If you want to test the heel lock, take the laces out and put the boot on. If the overall fit, length and heel lock is good, you should be able to lift your foot in the air and shake it around without the boot falling off your foot.

And if you pronate it can be addressed in various ways, it all depends on how much you skate and how much effort you want to put into fixing it. My approach is no laces, strengthen the ankles / calves / hips (backward one foot skating drills until your legs die of fatigue), learn to skate over the center of the blade and control the roll of your foot across the blade. But this takes time, dedication and hours and hours of practice. Others move the holders inwards, even for the pros. I was talking to an EM last week who did this for Dougie Hamilton.

Thank you so much for all this incredible info and sharing your experiences. I do skate with very loose laces (I do a deep, full knee bend when lacing up and hate tight laces) and thought that was part of the reason for my heel moving all the time. I also wear Bunga pads now, but want to avoid wearing them with a proper fit skate.

Your post got me thinking and I have an idea. After searching, I found out that the SMU Supreme Matrix skates (basically an upgraded S180) is available in a narrower C width, which would put it probably just a hair wider than Vapor D width. That would be perfect - volume for my instep with a very narrow anatomical heel lock.

Is there any info on the upcoming 2018 Supreme skates and if the new SMU Supreme will be based off the Curv composite model or a cheaper one? Will that be available in C width as well? Where can I place orders online for these SMU skates in the US?

[Vet88 673]

1 minute ago, BlueNux said:

 I do skate with very loose laces (I do a deep, full knee bend when lacing up and hate tight laces) and thought that was part of the reason for my heel moving all the time. 

If you find your heel is moving then look at the forefoot fit, if this is firm and good it will prevent the heel from moving that much. if you are also loose in this area then your heel will definitely move all over the place. Try this, use 2 laces. Lace the bottom 4 eyelets with one lace, tie this off as tight as you can. Use the 2nd lace for the rest of the eyelets (or no lace at all) and tie as loose as you like. As long as your technique is good, you don't have any foot alignment issues and the forefoot fit is tight your heel should stay in a relative constant position in the skate.

@JR Boucicaut or others in the trade, they should be able to help you with info on the SMU's.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

21 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Haha, with the challenges they have had on this tour (here is just one - the rink you book to go from the US to New Zealand ends up in Bolivia and then gets seized by Columbian customs officials as it transits thru their country!) be glad you aren't here. The guy I was talking to works for True (he used to be involved with the Bruins) and he is on the tour as their EM (as well as wearing his True hat), we had a wide ranging discussion about all things to do with skates, players, sharpeners, etc. Hell of a sharpener, overall consensus from players who have had skates sharpened by him is that they are up there with the best they have ever had. Sorry Sparx fans but he was not at all complimentary about the Sparx or Keith. 

Vet that was me!!!! And I never said anything about Keith. I believe you misunderstood.  Keith is an awesome guy and a great sharpener. And I only worked with Dougie and others in the Toronto area. Just a little clarification.  

[Vet88 673]

3 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Vet that was me!!!!   

omg, hilarious. My apologies for the misunderstanding about Keith. I wish I had time to be there on Thursday / Friday, I was going to pick your brains about a whole lot of other subjects but work meant I couldn't make it and the rink was finished at that point (or at least the first layer of ice was in, just). Ha, you don't want to move to NZ and sharpen skates? For those lucky individuals living in Toronto, you really shouldn't be going anywhere else.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Hahahaha to funny. 

[zeberq 0]

Hi,

I have similar issue with just purchased Tacks 9090 skate. It is almost impossible to completely lock heel after baking. However, skates were fine before I got them baked in a shop.  I tried non-backed skate, and for sure it provides better lock.

Any ideas how this can be addressed?

 

[puckpilot 312]

I'm guessing a little here, but before the bake, the liner material is more "fluffy". When you bake and lace the skates tight, the material compresses to the shape of your foot. If you're not lacing your skates as tight as they were in the store, which can be difficult with new skates, then they'll feel loose and it'll be more difficult to keep your heels locked in.

A solution I use to address heel lock is to adopt a different lacing method that helps push my heel into the boot, as well as using a skate tightener. 

[zeberq 0]

Well, to get foot "almost" locked in a boot I have to lace boot so hard, that I get a lot of pressure from laces through skate tongue.

What lacing method are you referring to?

[puckpilot 312]

1 hour ago, zeberq said:

Well, to get foot "almost" locked in a boot I have to lace boot so hard, that I get a lot of pressure from laces through skate tongue.

What lacing method are you referring to?

 

Here's some pics describing how I do things. I lace and tighten as normal until I reach the 4th eyelet from the top. I then add a runner's loop there as shown in the pic below.

Step 1

 

Step 2: I then run the laces to the top eyelet skipping the eyelet second from the top.

 

Step 3: I then cross and thread the laces down through the runner's loops and pull tight. When I do this, it feels like my foot is being sucked back into the heel pocket. Then I tie as normal. 

 

This kind of works like those heel straps in roller skates. I find this gives me great heel lock and plenty of forward flex without sacrificing any lateral stability. There's plenty of room for tweaking. I've tried moving the loops up and down the eyelets, and I've tried threading the laces through the 2nd eyelet from the top instead of the top eyelets to give me even more ankle mobility. 

The only draw back I found is that I sometimes have to cinch up my laces a little more after warm up to make sure they're tight enough. 

 

Any way, hop this helps.

Edited July 26, 2018 by puckpilot

[zeberq 0]

Thanks a lot for detailed answer! I'll give it a try.

[BlueNux 17]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:26 PM, zeberq said:

Thanks a lot for detailed answer! I'll give it a try.

OP here. I would say that if you're having a serious issue with heel sliding, resorting to unique lacing patterns should only be an option if you really love your current skates and don't want to buy something new.

I ended up getting new skates and now no longer need to wear bunga pads. The moment I put my new skates on (even with relatively loose laces), my heel was locked in and my ankles felt like there was even a pinch.

Don't just pay attention to skate width. My heels had issues with Jetspeeds despite their having narrow-ish width. Instead, the newer Bauers (both Vapors and Supremes) had incredible heel lock for me and just felt better overall. It has mostly to do with the way the foam padding are located. CCM foams are placed quite a bit higher so my bony heel keep rubbing against the hard portion of the quarter.

[VegasHockey 1260]

On 6/28/2018 at 3:52 AM, Vet88 said:

Making no comment on how the LHS fitted you, to get a better heel lock here is something that may work, it has for me and others. Get a heat gun and heat up the inside rear quarter of the skate (don't heat the other side of the skate), once it goes soft put it on, lace up firm then lie on the floor with the outside of the skate lying on the floor. Now get someone, without shoes on, to stand on the inside area of the heel and ankle. This will shape the boot to your inside heel / ankle shape and if you pronate slightly it will have the same effect as moving the blade holder slightly inwards. Next day go for a skate, if you are still unhappy with the lock and the way the boot feels on your feet, do the same for the outside rear quarter of the skate. However moving a panel inwards from its natural shape means over time it will eventually move out again. I'd suggest you need to eventually find a boot that has a really tight heel lock in the first place but if FT1's aren't doing it for you then you may need to go the custom route (or try 50k's, they have one of the narrowest heels in retail boots).

 

 

I usually recommend using ratchet clamps instead of having someone stand on the skate....  

[Vet88 673]

1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:

I usually recommend using ratchet clamps instead of having someone stand on the skate....  

If you are heating both sides and want your heel to be sitting in the center of the skate then I would agree. But if you want a slight offset of the heel position and are only heating one side at a time, I have found the stand on method gives a much better fit (yes, I have used ratchet and c-clamps for a long time now, both to compress and stretch boots). Downside is it takes twice as long and requires 2 people.

[VegasHockey 1260]

2 hours ago, Vet88 said:

If you are heating both sides and want your heel to be sitting in the center of the skate then I would agree. But if you want a slight offset of the heel position and are only heating one side at a time, I have found the stand on method gives a much better fit (yes, I have used ratchet and c-clamps for a long time now, both to compress and stretch boots). Downside is it takes twice as long and requires 2 people.

Makes sense. Never considered the offset portion of the design. Good info. 

[zeberq 0]

I tried changing lacing pattern and actually it helped a lot. I was able to tie my skate and didn't get any discomfort.

I still have some sort of hill movement left, but it moves up 1-3 mm (around 1/10 of inch) when I lift my foot. I guess this is acceptable and I'll try to address this with different insole. This move, doesn't give my any discomfort. and probably I had similar issue in my previous skate, but because older skate was much softer, my whole foot was moving.

Thanks a lot for help!

[VegasHockey 1260]

6 hours ago, zeberq said:

I tried changing lacing pattern and actually it helped a lot. I was able to tie my skate and didn't get any discomfort.

I still have some sort of hill movement left, but it moves up 1-3 mm (around 1/10 of inch) when I lift my foot. I guess this is acceptable and I'll try to address this with different insole. This move, doesn't give my any discomfort. and probably I had similar issue in my previous skate, but because older skate was much softer, my whole foot was moving.

Thanks a lot for help!

What insoles are you using? A little trick a lot of players do is use water-resistant silicone on the footbeds in the heel to keep them from slipping. Some insoles have anti-slip zones on them but most do not. 

[zeberq 0]

Right now this  is just one that came with skates.

Looking for either superfeet Yellow or CCM custom.

Gel pads could be something worth to try. Is it specific pads or any heel pads?

[BlueNux 17]

2 hours ago, zeberq said:

Right now this  is just one that came with skates.

Looking for either superfeet Yellow or CCM custom.

Gel pads could be something worth to try. Is it specific pads or any heel pads?

Good to know the lacing worked for you. It sounds like your issue was less severe than mine. My heel developed a bone spur and hurt just rubbing against the back of the skate. If it ever gets worse, you can always opt for a heel gel sleeve like Bunga pads.

Also, I'm selling an extra pair of new CCM custom insoles (shop sent me extra one). If you're interested, just PM and let me know. 🙂

[zeberq 0]

Small update -  I started skate with skiing sock (sort of anatomical one,bit thicker than hockey sock), and it took all extra space that were above heel and I still use lacing method described above.

Edited August 7, 2018 by zeberq
typo