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Just now, BlueNux said:

I have to say, irregardless of actual performance benefits, Bauer just feels like they're falling behind CCM from an average consumer's standpoint.

With CCM making removing unnecessary materials and improving their one-piece tech generation after generation, the new Vapors look so outdated. So much extra stitching, layered materials, etc.

Even if the one-piece benefit is overstated at the moment, there's no denying that CCM is putting R&D money to improve their technology every year. Compared to Bauer pushing out the same CURV composite every year, I'm really happy with what CCM is doing. Bauer didn't even want to put any soft comfort edge padding on their 2S model last year.

If you can fit equally well into Vapor and Jetspeed, why would you opt for Vapors at this point? Would you ever pick the 2X over the FT490?

Irregardless is not a real word. 

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1 minute ago, Nicholas G said:

Irregardless is not a real word. 

Thanks professor. "REGARDLESS". I'm not writing a graded essay here - I'm happy to use and accept nonstandard words. -.-

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15 minutes ago, BlueNux said:

Thanks professor. "REGARDLESS". I'm not writing a graded essay here - I'm happy to use and accept nonstandard words. -.-

I was just messing with you. I work with a guy who goes bonkers when someone says irregardless 😉

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On 6/13/2019 at 8:56 PM, Nicholas G said:

Honestly, I am still a little skeptical of a one-piece boot being the "end game" for skate technology. Plenty of players use two-piece skates, including the best around; McDavid, Crosby, McKinnon, Kucherov, Hall, and many more. Do I think the technology is superior to a one-piece skate, yes. But there are also limitations when developing a one-piece skate which is why TRUE and CCM fit very differently. In the future, I imagine companies making a two-piece skate fused in the ankle section to allow for more mobility. This would allow them to dial in different stiffness specifications. The MAKO (RIP) and TRUE skate are the only ones I have seen so far moving in this direction

Does it really matter? It's not like 95% of players are going to really notice the difference. 

Can you elaborate more on that?

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On 6/14/2019 at 10:35 PM, BlueNux said:

I have to say, irregardless of actual performance benefits, Bauer just feels like they're falling behind CCM from an average consumer's standpoint.

With CCM removing unnecessary materials and improving their one-piece tech generation after generation, the new Vapors look so outdated. So much extra stitching, layered materials, etc.

Even if the one-piece benefit is overstated at the moment, there's no denying that CCM is putting R&D money to improve their technology every year. Compared to Bauer pushing out the same CURV composite every year, I'm really happy with what CCM is doing. Bauer didn't even want to put any soft comfort edge padding on their 2S model last year.

If you can fit equally well into Vapor and Jetspeed, why would you opt for Vapors at this point? Would you ever pick the 2X over the FT490?

Bauer alone have thermoformable insoles, injected facing and thermoformable tongues. I was very screptical of these features,  but they work extremely well. The high end quarter package is made from carbon curv, basically carbon fibre, not curv which is a cheaper alternative, albeit extremely good. 

However both companies buy in a lot of tech. CCM buy in d3o. Bauer buy in G-Form, Curv, the wicking fabric, and other technologies. As for the one piece boot, surely the stiffness and the fit are far more important. 

The 2x Pro looks ugly as hell though. They remind me of silly cars (automobiles) with big exhaust pipes and go faster stripes. 

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5 hours ago, flip12 said:

Can you elaborate more on that?

True skates are built from the last inside out, starting with the liners placed on the last itself and then built all the way out to the trim. 

 From the videos Ive seen for CCM, Even for total custom CCM skates, they use high pressure moulding of a pre made quarter package onto the individual's last, which imo, is just like heat moulding but on steroids. 

Also, CCM saying their boots are "one piece" is kind of false advertising imo, as you can clearly see the crease/ line on the heel area, similar to the joint on the old "one piece" fused sticks. 

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11 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

True skates are built from the last inside out, starting with the liners placed on the last itself and then built all the way out to the trim. 

 From the videos Ive seen for CCM, Even for total custom CCM skates, they use high pressure moulding of a pre made quarter package onto the individual's last, which imo, is just like heat moulding but on steroids. 

Also, CCM saying their boots are "one piece" is kind of false advertising imo, as you can clearly see the crease/ line on the heel area, similar to the joint on the old "one piece" fused sticks. 

Can you link to the CCM videos showing the shell with the other parts being added?

I thought the crease on the heel of CCM skates was residual resin that shows the seam of the mold rather than a seam in the underlying textile that forms the shell. I pictured them doing a layup of carbon fiber pieces going across the heel, but I've never seen anything revealing the process for making that part.

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3 hours ago, flip12 said:

Can you link to the CCM videos showing the shell with the other parts being added?

I thought the crease on the heel of CCM skates was residual resin that shows the seam of the mold rather than a seam in the underlying textile that forms the shell. I pictured them doing a layup of carbon fiber pieces going across the heel, but I've never seen anything revealing the process for making that part.

That seems runs from the heel all the way to the bottom of the skate... There are no videos showing their process because I'm pretty sure they are keeping it hush hush. I could be wrong but the processes are very different. 

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2 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

That seems runs from the heel all the way to the bottom of the skate... There are no videos showing their process because I'm pretty sure they are keeping it hush hush. I could be wrong but the processes are very different. 

The seam running along the highest point of the part from top to bottom made me think it was a mold seam artifact. I pictured that piece being made in a mold like this one: 

 

Notice the similarity in the extremely straight line running along the part where the two parts of the mold meet. The cf is laid up across that seam, but there's a telltale artifact in the resin flow. I don't look at the CCM OPBs and picture two thin carbon fiber parts being fused together along the length of their innermost edges.

The AS1 product pictures on IW exhibit the similarity well:

 rs.php?path=CSA1S-5.jpg

 

rs.php?path=CSA1S-4.jpg

What about our resident composites expert, @bunnyman666? Can you shed some light on what might be going on with CCM's OPB construction?

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18 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

 From the videos Ive seen for CCM, Even for total custom CCM skates, they use high pressure moulding of a pre made quarter package onto the individual's last, which imo, is just like heat moulding but on steroids. 

My understanding is that both Bauer and CCM use a similar process for custom skates, taking essentially stock boot components but adjusted in cut to the individual feet - including different lengths and widths for each foot - and then as you say pressure moulding each to a printed cast of the foot. How much they tailor the quarter package and the in/outsole and tongue to each person is unknown. I’m sure Bauer has a stash of toe caps so they can accommodate most fore feet. But I am very impressed by what Bauer has achieved, and I assume CCM is as good, not that I know.

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On 6/14/2019 at 2:35 PM, BlueNux said:

I have to say, irregardless of actual performance benefits, Bauer just feels like they're falling behind CCM from an average consumer's standpoint.

With CCM removing unnecessary materials and improving their one-piece tech generation after generation, the new Vapors look so outdated. So much extra stitching, layered materials, etc.

Even if the one-piece benefit is overstated at the moment, there's no denying that CCM is putting R&D money to improve their technology every year. Compared to Bauer pushing out the same CURV composite every year, I'm really happy with what CCM is doing. Bauer didn't even want to put any soft comfort edge padding on their 2S model last year.

If you can fit equally well into Vapor and Jetspeed, why would you opt for Vapors at this point? Would you ever pick the 2X over the FT490?

I tried on the 2X Pro in the store and the toecap feeling is amazing. It's far superior to my FT1s. It's a very nice boot. I do like my one piece though and it's really a tossup but I felt the Bauer was more comfortable due to the toecap and the tongue. It's a give and take. I think they each do things better than the other. I'll never understand why bauer puts those shit laces on the skates though.

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That was released before the MyBauer programme, it’s unclear if the process is the same. Certainly the foot moulds don’t look like 3D printed ones, maybe actual casts. 

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18 hours ago, flip12 said:

The seam running along the highest point of the part from top to bottom made me think it was a mold seam artifact. I pictured that piece being made in a mold like this one: 

 

Notice the similarity in the extremely straight line running along the part where the two parts of the mold meet. The cf is laid up across that seam, but there's a telltale artifact in the resin flow. I don't look at the CCM OPBs and picture two thin carbon fiber parts being fused together along the length of their innermost edges.

The AS1 product pictures on IW exhibit the similarity well:

 rs.php?path=CSA1S-5.jpg

 

rs.php?path=CSA1S-4.jpg

What about our resident composites expert, @bunnyman666? Can you shed some light on what might be going on with CCM's OPB construction?

It may very well be a clamshell/bladder mould.

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5 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

It may very well be a clamshell/bladder mould.

Is there anyway that it could be fuse seam joining two individually molded parts in each CCM OPB shell? That was @Sniper9‘s take.

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4 minutes ago, flip12 said:

Is there anyway that it could be fuse seam joining two individually molded parts in each CCM OPB shell? That was @Sniper9‘s take.

Certainly.

There are just so many scenario that can play out in composite construction. 

What many don’t know is that the pretty outside layer does not necessarily indicate everything going on with composites. One bicycle frame I had built, the customer wanted it as “raw as possible”. I pulled a face and asked if he was CERTAIN. He said we was, UNTIL he saw it with no fillers, no cosmetic layer, just raw, unadulterated, hand-built composite, tubes, shells and assemblies glued together and carbon taped. He said, and I quote “it looks like a high school shop project”. My response was simple: “there is a LOT that goes on to purty up a piece of composite, let alone multiple pieces. He then accepted my answer and I had to strip all of the matte finish and hand-lay my finish. One positive? I DID develop an even cooler, abrasion-resistant outer finish from that process! 

It is still technically one piece when components are fused together and finished with a finish layer; after all- none of the pieces could function on their own. Then only TRUE one-piece boot would be filament wound, which would be HORRENDOUSLY expensive, not to mention impractical! 

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Anybody have a chance to try these out yet? tried them on today, fit great, but not sure about the tpu outsole. Not saying its bad, just don't know. Have been using full composite boots for 10+ years now

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Haven't like Vapors in years now, but this toe has me intrigued. After going to FT1 from Mako, that perfect fit in the toe box is something I long for. I'm not super concerned about 2 piece vs 1 piece seeing as what... over 1/3 of the NHL is still in 2 piece construction? I'm way more concerned about that "glove like" fit and long term durability.

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I like the new toe cap but find the new Vapor 2X Pro to fit not as close to the foot as the previous models. They feel bulky to me when you look at them in person vs a FT2 or the previous Vapor generation. However, the 2X feels more streamlined than the 2X Pro. 

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1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:

I like the new toe cap but find the new Vapor 2X Pro to fit not as close to the foot as the previous models. They feel bulky to me when you look at them in person vs a FT2 or the previous Vapor generation. However, the 2X feels more streamlined than the 2X Pro. 

I have yet to try on but yeah it's unlikely the stock 2X will fit me as well as stock FT2. Then again, there's always True...but since I fit fairly well into stock CCM now, I just don't see the reason to splurge on True when I'm only skating 2x a week.

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Can anyone explain to me what the yellow Dynaflex lettering means on the 2X Pro? What exactly is this new feature? Gimmick or legit?

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13 hours ago, BlueNux said:

Can anyone explain to me what the yellow Dynaflex lettering means on the 2X Pro? What exactly is this new feature? Gimmick or legit?

It gives the boot more flexibility, which is supposed to result in better agility, and east west movements. I mean, it could be legit if done right. If the boot flexes more, and moves with you, then this would result in better agility

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Picked up a pair of 2x pro's Friday night and skated Sat, Ill reserve judgment until I get a few more ice sessions in but so far I am very pleased with the skate. Love the new toe cap 

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6 hours ago, hollowicked said:

Picked up a pair of 2x pro's Friday night and skated Sat, Ill reserve judgment until I get a few more ice sessions in but so far I am very pleased with the skate. Love the new toe cap 

You didn't find the new boot a little bulky? It's very light, but the new foams just make it feel very wide. 

Edited by Nicholas G

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The thermoform-able  properties of the 2X Pro are amazing.  To me the new tongue makes it feel less bulky than the 1X 2.0.  

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