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Healthyscratch

Alternative to True skates?

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if pure hockey is willing to refund you so you can go with another brand then that's your choice. But like others have said, you won't find anything to fit anything like true skates do. 

But I'm with others in that the fitter should be the one requesting a remake.  

Edited by Sniper9
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I would get a refund from Pure, then walk myself over to another TRUE dealer (if available) and get my skates made there.

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10 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Not sure who you spoke to but that is not the policy at the factory.  If it was a depth issue and thicker reds didnt help then the next procedure is re-scan and remake. Its simple.  There is no question that's the policy. You have had 2 pairs prior you said so then it should just happen ......

Unless there is more to the story. 

+1000000

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On 6/27/2019 at 10:33 AM, Nicholas G said:

+1000000

Interesting how the complaining stopped when asked for story details.  Now I'm very curious. 

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Everyone seems to be missing the point here.  He received skates that were too big and had too much volume and True's fix/response was inadequate.  Sounds like the retailer is willing to work with him to make things right by him.  He doesn't wish to continue with/or support True any longer which is why he asked for possible alternatives.  The 2X Pro, 2X, and FT2 would be worth looking into.

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2 hours ago, mojo122 said:

Everyone seems to be missing the point here.  He received skates that were too big and had too much volume and True's fix/response was inadequate.  Sounds like the retailer is willing to work with him to make things right by him.  He doesn't wish to continue with/or support True any longer which is why he asked for possible alternatives.  The 2X Pro, 2X, and FT2 would be worth looking into.

I'd argue that nobody is missing the point.  OP says True's response is not adequate, but OP hasn't followed proper protocol.  Don't complain that they're not solving your problem when you're not willing to go through the proper channels.

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9 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Interesting how the complaining stopped when asked for story details.  Now I'm very curious. 

Tends to happen... 

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7 hours ago, mojo122 said:

Everyone seems to be missing the point here.  He received skates that were too big and had too much volume and True's fix/response was inadequate.  Sounds like the retailer is willing to work with him to make things right by him.  He doesn't wish to continue with/or support True any longer which is why he asked for possible alternatives.  The 2X Pro, 2X, and FT2 would be worth looking into.

I don't think we missed the point at all. Everyone that is in the selling business of True all said something is missing. As protocol wasnt followed by anyone. If it had been then maybe the thicker sole would have been tried but new skates would have been made if that didnt work end of story. That's how it works. If after the 2nd pair this issue persisted then I think everyone would say oh..well why dont you try X skate.... but that didnt happen. So people that sell are scratching there heads going huh?? 

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I assume that common procedure with VH skates is the same as it was Pre-True. Volume fine tuning is made by removing the red insole liner to increase volume, or thickening it to reduce volume. The OP should just try the thicker liner and if the skate is still too large, have the boots re-made after re-scanning or re-measuring to determine where the process went wrong.

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5 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

I don't think we missed the point at all. Everyone that is in the selling business of True all said something is missing. As protocol wasnt followed by anyone. If it had been then maybe the thicker sole would have been tried but new skates would have been made if that didnt work end of story. That's how it works. If after the 2nd pair this issue persisted then I think everyone would say oh..well why dont you try X skate.... but that didnt happen. So people that sell are scratching there heads going huh?? 

But the people who buy are saying "screw that, move on". Both sides have valid points. However what seems to be overlooked by one half is it's up to the consumer how they want to spend their money. Some people are willing to deal with a little BS, others aren't. Me, if spent that kind of cash on a custom made skate and it was off by that much, no way I do business with that company again. If they didn't fit and I got that same response from True, no way I go back, not in a million years. 

Still baffles me how many screw ups there are on an item made specifically to the customers foot. Maybe they should have refined their process before putting time and effort into a holder.

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38 minutes ago, stick9 said:

But the people who buy are saying "screw that, move on". Both sides have valid points. However what seems to be overlooked by one half is it's up to the consumer how they want to spend their money. Some people are willing to deal with a little BS, others aren't. Me, if spent that kind of cash on a custom made skate and it was off by that much, no way I do business with that company again. If they didn't fit and I got that same response from True, no way I go back, not in a million years. 

Still baffles me how many screw ups there are on an item made specifically to the customers foot. Maybe they should have refined their process before putting time and effort into a holder.

What most are objecting to (at least me) is that he got a skate that didn’t fit, claimed the store couldn’t help him and didn’t provide any details when asked (the fact that the store wouldn’t/couldn’t help runs counter to those here who either have stores that do True as well as customers who have rectified their issues in that manner), and went through the first step of debugging with True and no further.  The implication was that True wasn’t treating him right.

you are correct about people choosing to spend their money as they wish, but it is a discussion topic here.

as for screw ups, i am not going to judge failure rate by what i hear on the internet.

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36 minutes ago, stick9 said:

But the people who buy are saying "screw that, move on". Both sides have valid points. However what seems to be overlooked by one half is it's up to the consumer how they want to spend their money. 

Sure, but the money has been spent. There's nothing to lose by pursuing this before spending more money on another pair from a different company. But thinking the thousand dollars or so isn't worth a few stern emails and/or some conversations with a retailer, well, IMHO, that's not the stance most people would take and just shrug and walk away from, especially when there's more that can be done. 

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2 hours ago, stick9 said:

But the people who buy are saying "screw that, move on". Both sides have valid points. However what seems to be overlooked by one half is it's up to the consumer how they want to spend their money. Some people are willing to deal with a little BS, others aren't. Me, if spent that kind of cash on a custom made skate and it was off by that much, no way I do business with that company again. If they didn't fit and I got that same response from True, no way I go back, not in a million years. 

Still baffles me how many screw ups there are on an item made specifically to the customers foot. Maybe they should have refined their process before putting time and effort into a holder.

I would argue that even with 3D scanning (which in itself is still not all that advanced at the retail level, have to keep the cost down or the product becomes too pricey) and taking into account all of our "advanced technologies" we have to date there is still a slight margin for fitment refinements. Everyone needs to understand a scan is only as good as the person doing it. If that person doesn't follow all of the proper procedures and the scan is compromised then everything else will be as well. 

For example, if the foot is positioned in the wrong pose when scanning, or you may have foot swelling due to inflammation, or other reasons for a variance in the scan, the scan is thereby going to be slightly off. If the scan is off everything else after that is basically compromised. If the proper procedures are followed usually minor alternations and heating of the skates in the store will allow for the necessary changes to bring the product back within spec. 

I would venture in the next couple of years we will see specifically made devices that are not using low-level retail hardware + iPad to perform scans. We are very much in what I would consider V1 of this technology at a retail level. Yes, I say retail level often in my reply because everyone needs to understand what a company like SpaceX, Google, Apple, and others may use will be drastically different than what a sporting good manufacturer is going to offer and support without having to substantially penalize the customers pocket. 

I am sure this will first happen at the pro level, which is where TRUE, CCM, and Bauer started before it will trickle its way down to the general population.  

Lastly, I am not 100% sure I can consider volume ever to be a fitment issue and rather a personal preference. For example, some people myself included) like to get into the smallest and lowest profile skate possible while others ( a few recent customers) may want or need (medically) wiggle room for their toes. Finding that "sweet spot" where you can provide a product for 99% of the general population while keeping costs reasonable is no easy task.

Edited by Nicholas G
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On 6/29/2019 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas G said:

I would argue that even with 3D scanning (which in itself is still not all that advanced at the retail level, have to keep the cost down or the product becomes too pricey) and taking into account all of our "advanced technologies" we have to date there is still a slight margin for fitment refinements. Everyone needs to understand a scan is only as good as the person doing it. If that person doesn't follow all of the proper procedures and the scan is compromised then everything else will be as well. 

For example, if the foot is positioned in the wrong pose when scanning, or you may have foot swelling due to inflammation, or other reasons for a variance in the scan, the scan is thereby going to be slightly off. If the scan is off everything else after that is basically compromised. If the proper procedures are followed usually minor alternations and heating of the skates in the store will allow for the necessary changes to bring the product back within spec. 

I would venture in the next couple of years we will see specifically made devices that are not using low-level retail hardware + iPad to perform scans. We are very much in what I would consider V1 of this technology at a retail level. Yes, I say retail level often in my reply because everyone needs to understand what a company like SpaceX, Google, Apple, and others may use will be drastically different than what a sporting good manufacturer is going to offer and support without having to substantially penalize the customers pocket. 

I am sure this will first happen at the pro level, which is where TRUE, CCM, and Bauer started before it will trickle its way down to the general population.  

Lastly, I am not 100% sure I can consider volume ever to be a fitment issue and rather a personal preference. For example, some people myself included) like to get into the smallest and lowest profile skate possible while others ( a few recent customers) may want or need (medically) wiggle room for their toes. Finding that "sweet spot" where you can provide a product for 99% of the general population while keeping costs reasonable is no easy task.

Regarding the could issue being preference. I agree but that's should be incorporated in the fitting/scanning. More questions for what the player prefers. Toes brushing or not. And how much room for pencil test etc. I guess the question regarding what make and model skate does somewhat cover the volume preference though... But just some food for thought. 

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52 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

Regarding the could issue being preference. I agree but that's should be incorporated in the fitting/scanning. More questions for what the player prefers. Toes brushing or not. And how much room for pencil test etc. I guess the question regarding what make and model skate does somewhat cover the volume preference though... But just some food for thought. 

That would require TRUE to offer multiple variations of their skates which would drive the cost up if enough people started to request such.

I think the big picture for TRUE/Scott is they/he are/is trying to focus on is minimizing fitment issues for both younger and emerging players while also appealing to the older player who likely has spent considerable time in the wrong size or incompatible skate. For example, the player who came in yesterday and got TRUE skates after owning multiple pair of skates that were too big in volume for his feet because they were more comfortable for him as he has sensitive toes. 

I do think eventually TRUE will have to expand their customization options because Bauer and CCM aren't going to stop evolving and with the percentage of market share they own it's much more likely for them to put a ton of money into research and development. I wouldn't be shocked in 5 years from now Bauer was leading everyone in this.... 

How can I think that way when Bauer is behind everyone else in evolution and still hasn't adopted a one-piece boot and such? Well, Bauer had financial troubles, multiple leadership changes, acquisitions, and selling of units (Easton for example) and spent a considerable amount of money in the last decade on manufacturing. Once that has depreciated they will certainly be looking at options to offer custom skates, likely using some type of 3D printing. I am sure that is where most manufacturers will go with high-end custom skates.... From scan to your foot in less than 5 days.

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1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:

That would require TRUE to offer multiple variations of their skates which would drive the cost up if enough people started to request such.

I think the big picture for TRUE/Scott is they/he are/is trying to focus on is minimizing fitment issues for both younger and emerging players while also appealing to the older player who likely has spent considerable time in the wrong size or incompatible skate. For example, the player who came in yesterday and got TRUE skates after owning multiple pair of skates that were too big in volume for his feet because they were more comfortable for him as he has sensitive toes. 

I do think eventually TRUE will have to expand their customization options because Bauer and CCM aren't going to stop evolving and with the percentage of market share they own it's much more likely for them to put a ton of money into research and development. I wouldn't be shocked in 5 years from now Bauer was leading everyone in this.... 

How can I think that way when Bauer is behind everyone else in evolution and still hasn't adopted a one-piece boot and such? Well, Bauer had financial troubles, multiple leadership changes, acquisitions, and selling of units (Easton for example) and spent a considerable amount of money in the last decade on manufacturing. Once that has depreciated they will certainly be looking at options to offer custom skates, likely using some type of 3D printing. I am sure that is where most manufacturers will go with high-end custom skates.... From scan to your foot in less than 5 days.

Getting info like how someone likes their skate length and overall volume wouldn't cause them to offer different variations. They would just increase or decrease their facings and or length of the skate... Unless they only can apply one size facing template per size skate which would make their skates not custom. They should be able to offer oversized toe caps etc if requested if they were truly "custom". 

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15 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

 

Getting info like how someone likes their skate length and overall volume wouldn't cause them to offer different variations. They would just increase or decrease their facings and or length of the skate... Unless they only can apply one size facing template per size skate which would make their skates not custom. They should be able to offer oversized toe caps etc if requested if they were truly "custom". 

In manufacturing, any option or modification is a variation. I am sure they have various facing templates that they use but it would be ridiculous to think they actually do each section separately and unique. I think we are missing the definition of custom, made or done to order for a particular customer. It doesn't mean unique.

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4 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

If the skate is built to your foot, why do you need oversized toe caps?

That's the thing. Are they really built to your foot? No one's been actually able to answer this question. If it's built for your foot there wouldn't be as many remakes and issues with volume. There is no way having the boot made around your actual foot last would result in a skate that's fit is so off it needed to be remade. 

My buddy who posted here has size 6.5 feet but in a eee width and very high instep. If the boot was built around his actual foot last there is no way his first pair would have resulted in a boot that had no where near the volume he needed. Failed the pencil test miserably. They remade it with a new scan etc and it came back better but still imo with not enough volume. 

I've never had volume issues bc I have a fairly standard 7d foot. And whatever fit issues I've had was easily fixed his additional baked it spot heating with a heat gun.  

I like true and imo it's the best fitting and feeling skate, but they seem to have a lot more limitations than they promote. 

Edited by Sniper9

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Kind of declarative statements about the custom skate making process without any firsthand knowledge of how they do things... 

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On 6/27/2019 at 12:06 AM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Not sure who you spoke to but that is not the policy at the factory.  If it was a depth issue and thicker reds didnt help then the next procedure is re-scan and remake. Its simple.  There is no question that's the policy. You have had 2 pairs prior you said so then it should just happen ......

Unless there is more to the story. 

This is exactly the point.  The first established procedure is to try the insert.  If that is unsatisfactory, then the boots will be remade.  OP seems to be angry that they would not skip directly to step 2, before even trying step 1.  And now that he's been called out, he refuses to try step 1 at all, therefore eliminating the possibility of step 2.  There's a significant difference between "The inserts won't work" and "I tried the inserts and they didn't work".  Even if he's upset that the skates weren't perfect the first time and didn't want to use the insoles as a cheap fix (which seems to be the case, and is understandable), it's easy to just play along and say the inserts didn't work.  My guess the 'more" to the story is he reached a stalemate when he wanted the skates remade and True said to try the insert first which he refused out of principle.

 

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11 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

This is exactly the point.  The first established procedure is to try the insert.  If that is unsatisfactory, then the boots will be remade.  OP seems to be angry that they would not skip directly to step 2, before even trying step 1.  And now that he's been called out, he refuses to try step 1 at all, therefore eliminating the possibility of step 2.  There's a significant difference between "The inserts won't work" and "I tried the inserts and they didn't work".  Even if he's upset that the skates weren't perfect the first time and didn't want to use the insoles as a cheap fix (which seems to be the case, and is understandable), it's easy to just play along and say the inserts didn't work.  My guess the 'more" to the story is he reached a stalemate when he wanted the skates remade and True said to try the insert first which he refused out of principle.

 

The OP does say the feet are sliding forward whilst skating. At the best that is a length issue which no insert is going to fix, wadding in the toe is more appropriate.

However he also says "necessary for growth" and that, to me, is the million dollar question. Definition of how much is too much growth? 

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10 hours ago, Vet88 said:

The OP does say the feet are sliding forward whilst skating. At the best that is a length issue which no insert is going to fix, wadding in the toe is more appropriate.

However he also says "necessary for growth" and that, to me, is the million dollar question. Definition of how much is too much growth? 

No, no issue is going to fix it.  But the process is the process.  Stick the damn thing in, stay it doesn't fix it, and move on.

I wondered that also. The kid is still growing, I figured.  How long before the skates do fit, and you can take out said padding? If they remake the skates, he'll need another pair soon enough.  There's some kind of happy medium here when you consider all the factors.  

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True is currently building my THIRD pair of skates, due to fit and quality issues on the first two pairs.  On the first pair, the left skate was very poorly stitched (to put it mildly) in several places, glue all over, oil/grease prints, and the liner was separating at the top of the collar in a spot.  That same left skate was also no where near wide enough in the arch/instep.  They felt like a torture device.  The right skate was absolutely perfect.  It was as if a completely different employee made the left vs the right skate.  Both skates went back to True.  They sent an entirely new pair 2 weeks later (both left and right, I have no idea why as the right skate was fine).

On the second pair the quality control was fine, but again, the left skate was no where near wide enough.  I could hardly keep the skate on my foot as they cooled and hardened from the baking process.  Once taking it off, you could obviously see my foot was aggravated, with red swelling and pain throughout the arch/instep.  The right skate also seemed narrower than on the first pair through the arch.  It did not feel as good as the first pair's right skate.  I have no clue how this is possible as they used the exact same scan.  I am not sure it (the right skate) would have worked.  In any case, the left skate was completely unusable so they had to go back.

We did a complete re-scan, and did foot tracings to send in for what will now be the third pair of skates.  I am currently waiting for them.  I originally placed this order back in early April through Pure, it is now July, and I still do not have my skates.  My experience so far does not give me much optimism that the third pair will be any better, but I am certainly hoping!  I have held off on bashing True or Pure at any point during this debacle, because the situation is on-going and I have no reason to believe they will not make it right.  I bring it up now because my contact at Pure Hockey has been helpful and sympathetic during the process.  I have no clue why the OP does not follow through with Pure Hockey vs dealing with True.  My contact at Pure assures me that if this pair does not work I will receive a full refund.  We shall see...  I can upload pictures of the complete disaster that was the original left skate at some point.  It should be embarrassing for True that it even made it out of the factory.

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