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11 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

The simple answer is the "jump test". .

Ex: my don during the jump test had his left heel raise 22mm before the right was ar 5mm off the ground. When landing they were equal. Hence his left skate had a heel lift. How Mr. Kelly determines all of the data is his patented analytic report and work of 15 years.  

So with your son if we I'd the jump test we could tell you what needed to go where. As you have all the pieces you could just add it to where was needed. 

As for alingbment he has a knack for seeing your sons foot and alignment is done how he feels he would be balanced via the centers of the boot from manufacturing not from where you think it should be as the appearance of center in the heel for instance is usually incorrect.  Hopefully that helps a little more. I'm just the installation guy... hahaha if you'd like I can forward the question?

 

Hes by trade a engineer and has worked for the US military and NASA   

His skating background is Olympic speedskater, University Hockey Player (with Mike Babcock at McGill) and figure skater. His wife also an Olympic Figure Skater. Not to mention again his father Red Kelly (recently passed) and HHOF member and his mother a figure skating coach. 

Just incase someone wondered if had ever skated and how he would be qualified for this. Hehehe.  

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.  So, a jump test with force plates?  If it's prohibitively expensive, that would make some sense.  It would be the only way to really get the kind of accuracy you're talking about with something heel contact.  It would also be something that would be fairly straightforward to automate along the lines of something like ReTul that's been done in the bike retail industry. 

As far as those skate modifications, those were my skates not my son's.  He's in more or less stock Makos.  Slight modification to the pitch to make them less aggressive, but other than that pretty straightforward.  That's my point, I have modified mine based on my own perceptions of what I needed to do to deal with my unilateral valgus.  I haven't messed with his other than to provide the best fitting skate (Makos) with loose ankles (he goes two down from the top on Makos... crazy ankle strength).  So, he has very good mobility and stride characteristics.  Could they be improved?  I'm open to the notion, but need to have a quantitative approach so that we know what is being done, why and how to go back.  Skating is his strength, but as he rises levels, it's a less distinctive strength, so, need to keep staying ahead of the curve. 

Anyway, I'll keep my eyes open for more info and developments.

Thanks,

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11 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

The simple answer is the "jump test". .

Ex: my don during the jump test had his left heel raise 22mm before the right was ar 5mm off the ground. When landing they were equal. Hence his left skate had a heel lift. How Mr. Kelly determines all of the data is his patented analytic report and work of 15 years.  

So with your son if we I'd the jump test we could tell you what needed to go where. As you have all the pieces you could just add it to where was needed. 

As for alingbment he has a knack for seeing your sons foot and alignment is done how he feels he would be balanced via the centers of the boot from manufacturing not from where you think it should be as the appearance of center in the heel for instance is usually incorrect.  Hopefully that helps a little more. I'm just the installation guy... hahaha if you'd like I can forward the question?

 

Hes by trade a engineer and has worked for the US military and NASA   

His skating background is Olympic speedskater, University Hockey Player (with Mike Babcock at McGill) and figure skater. His wife also an Olympic Figure Skater. Not to mention again his father Red Kelly (recently passed) and HHOF member and his mother a figure skating coach. 

Just incase someone wondered if had ever skated and how he would be qualified for this. Hehehe.  

Nex time I'm out East I need to visit and get this done. I am VERY interested in it. 

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7 minutes ago, Nicholas G said:

Nex time I'm out East I need to visit and get this done. I am VERY interested in it. 

I can do the Jump Test via online. But I would need the akates for alignment and such.  But yes way better if you could come see for yourself. 

 

Let me know!!

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Frankly, I am surprised it took as long as it has for this to happen. In the worlds of road and track cycling, cleat alignment and fitting to biomechanics has been going on for a very, very long time. 

Good on them for finally doing something. No, this does not even hint at being snake oil.

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1 hour ago, bunnyman666 said:

Frankly, I am surprised it took as long as it has for this to happen. In the worlds of road and track cycling, cleat alignment and fitting to biomechanics has been going on for a very, very long time. 

Good on them for finally doing something. No, this does not even hint at being snake oil.

Just a wee bit more complicated aligning skates vs cleats on bikes though.  Just sayin'.

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3 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Frankly, I am surprised it took as long as it has for this to happen. In the worlds of road and track cycling, cleat alignment and fitting to biomechanics has been going on for a very, very long time. 

Good on them for finally doing something. No, this does not even hint at being snake oil.

Actually thoughts you were trying to be funny about the snake oil till I read all about bikes and cleat alignmenton.  

 

Wow that's crazy!!!

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1 hour ago, smcgreg said:

Just a wee bit more complicated aligning skates vs cleats on bikes though.  Just sayin'.

No- I won’t disagree with that statement AT ALL. But the concepts are equally important.

I had a $1000 fitting that was considerably more complicated than what 9/10 shoppes could carry out with an old, dusty fit kit. Keep in mind that I was trying to make my daily bread with the cycling part of duathlon and triathlon. They measured VO2 max, wattage with subtle position changes, and tweaking my position in the Texas A&M wind tunnel. So I would say my fitting was a bit more involved than my bike on a wind trainer and the guy fumbling through the dusty fit kit.

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1 hour ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Actually thoughts you were trying to be funny about the snake oil till I read all about bikes and cleat alignmenton.  

 

Wow that's crazy!!!

And I hope you did not take it as me calling it snake oil AT ALL.

 I had wondered how long it was going to take to work with biomechanics on skates. It had to be there. 

When getting fitted on my bike, incremental differences resulted in wattage gains. 

If I skated out, you had BETTER BELIEVE that I would get a skate fitting from you. I believe in proper biomechanical alignment 100%.

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6 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

No- I won’t disagree with that statement AT ALL. But the concepts are equally important.

I had a $1000 fitting that was considerably more complicated than what 9/10 shoppes could carry out with an old, dusty fit kit. Keep in mind that I was trying to make my daily bread with the cycling part of duathlon and triathlon. They measured VO2 max, wattage with subtle position changes, and tweaking my position in the Texas A&M wind tunnel. So I would say my fitting was a bit more involved than my bike on a wind trainer and the guy fumbling through the dusty fit kit.

Ok, but  you did say "cleat alignment", not aerodynamic optimization.  That being said, other than aero optimization, I would say most bike fitting approaches, especially using things such as VO2 are actual snake oil.  Just because somebody uses scientific tools, it doesn't mean the application of those tools is necessarily a valid approach.  I still chuckle at the "scientific fitters" who essentially set money on fire by testing lactate in the wind tunnel to get the "most accurate" results. 

So, your comment earlier that this skate fitting approach wasn't snake oil, I thought to myself, "we don't know that yet".  One could use force plates and 3D motion analysis and the approach could still be snake oil.  There's still a lot that needs to be presented here before it can be determined how skeptical buyers should be.  

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12 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

And I hope you did not take it as me calling it snake oil AT ALL.

 I had wondered how long it was going to take to work with biomechanics on skates. It had to be there. 

When getting fitted on my bike, incremental differences resulted in wattage gains. 

If I skated out, you had BETTER BELIEVE that I would get a skate fitting from you. I believe in proper biomechanical alignment 100%.

Again,.... skate alignment is MUCH MORE complicated than cycling cleat alignment.  On a bike, the foot travels through a circle and is always in contact with the surface through which the power is being transferred.  So, alignments are subject to pretty rudimentary physical principles.  Even still,... although I know you feel like you made substantial increases in power output with alignment changes, it's actually pretty atypical.  The placebo effect is almost impossible to eliminate and I've seen just as many cases when riders power got worse due to a poor fit adjustment.  The literature and even the physics themselves don't support the claim that substantial power improvements can be gained with most traditional biomechanical alignment changes (mitigation of soft tissue injury maybe,.. but power, not so much).  There is no doubt that the order of improvement would come from 1) aerodynamics 2) gross changes that would optimize hip angle to maximize power output while maintaining aero position (this is an optimization problem),.... then..... way way way down the line would be like 10) cleat alignment.  Granted, improvements to a simply horrible position or fit can yield improvements.  In general though, performance improvements due to most biomechanical changes to a rider who is already a trained rider are very much oversold and, ... hence... snake oil 😉  My point with this rant is, the oft cited notion of "scientific" approach to bike fit using biomechanical tools to improve performance is mostly hogwash. **

OTOH, any other type of locomotion (e.g. running, skating, skiing, etc) is subject to many more degrees of freedom and, as such, it is much more difficult to get generally applicable rules that apply.  So, the issue here is that there may be gains to be made due to the enormous degrees of freedom, but it's difficult to get away from the "whack a mole" scenario.  I.e. if you make a change how do you know it doesn't have an unintended consequence that could be detrimental?   All that being said, it's plausible that a sound biomechanical approach could identify issues that if rectified could result in improvements.  There just isn't enough info right now to determine one way or the other.  Simply using force plates to measure jumps and gross asymmetries isn't enough info imo.  We shall see as more info comes out.

**I know this rant seems off topic, but Bunnyman alluded to the approaches used in cycling and I thought it would be good to point out some of the misconceptions regarding these approaches and how it could inform this topic. 

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9 hours ago, smcgreg said:

**I know this rant seems off topic, but Bunnyman alluded to the approaches used in cycling and I thought it would be good to point out some of the misconceptions regarding these approaches and how it could inform this topic. 

I though it was rather interesting, and not really off topic. Maybe a bit tangential, but a worthwhile perspective on an analogous system. It’s always interesting to see how these things have played out in other arenas if something new but familiar comes along.

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1 hour ago, flip12 said:

I though it was rather interesting, and not really off topic. Maybe a bit tangential, but a worthwhile perspective on an analogous system. It’s always interesting to see how these things have played out in other arenas if something new but familiar comes along.

To condense my point more clearly, I'll put it this way.... I think there is greater potential for a biomechanical approach to skate alignment to be more beneficial to skating than cleat alignment to cycling.  That being said, simply throwing biomechanical and "sciency" approaches at a problem and claiming miraculous results still leaves open the possibility that the overall approach is quackery and with skating it's honestly more difficult to tell.  So, I'll remain critically interested in more information that will hopefully be forthcoming.

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9 hours ago, smcgreg said:

To condense my point more clearly, I'll put it this way.... I think there is greater potential for a biomechanical approach to skate alignment to be more beneficial to skating than cleat alignment to cycling.  That being said, simply throwing biomechanical and "sciency" approaches at a problem and claiming miraculous results still leaves open the possibility that the overall approach is quackery and with skating it's honestly more difficult to tell.  So, I'll remain critically interested in more information that will hopefully be forthcoming.

If you'd like I showed Mr Kelly the thread today. Simply email the website and hed be happy to answer your questions.  

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Seems like it does the same thing as re-profiling of blades if all it is doing is changing the balance point. If I adding a layer of shim inside the skate at the heel, then, you are getting the same effect as adding a forward pitch to the blade profile. And if your skates have a factory pitch (or even possibly a negative pitch from poor skate sharpening), then raising the heel would give you a forward pitch and all the benefits that come with a forward pitch blade profile.

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3 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

Seems like it does the same thing as re-profiling of blades if all it is doing is changing the balance point. If I adding a layer of shim inside the skate at the heel, then, you are getting the same effect as adding a forward pitch to the blade profile. And if your skates have a factory pitch (or even possibly a negative pitch from poor skate sharpening), then raising the heel would give you a forward pitch and all the benefits that come with a forward pitch blade profile.

Not even close.  There is no way to profile the blades to the degrees that voukd be needed.  Plus each foot is usually different.  My son was just redone and because of his growth has changed dramatically.  

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52 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Not even close.  There is no way to profile the blades to the degrees that voukd be needed.  Plus each foot is usually different.  My son was just redone and because of his growth has changed dramatically.  

OK. If your product involves raising the heel up that much, then it sounds like the product wants the skater's foot angle to be downward, as if he were standing on the balls of his feet, instead of flat. It's kind of interesting, because then, it would also replicate the same effect of not lacing up the top eyelet.

Edited by caveman27

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28 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

OK. If your product involves raising the heel up that much, then it sounds like the product wants the skater's foot angle to be downward, as if he were standing on the balls of his feet, instead of flat. It's kind of interesting, because then, it would also replicate the same effect of not lacing up the top eyelet.

Not everyone is the same though. Some need it in the toe. It's all science based. It can't be just it's this or that. The Jump Test tells the majority of the story and it goes from there. 

 

 

 

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Sounds like it isn’t so much the solution but the process of determining the parameters of the solution.  You can shim and profile to your heart’s content but it pretty much completely trial and error at this point.

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2 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Sounds like it isn’t so much the solution but the process of determining the parameters of the solution.  You can shim and profile to your heart’s content but it pretty much completely trial and error at this point.

Exactly!!! This process tells you where and how much of a change is needed.!! Great idea for an opening line to explain it. Thanks

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So an update. I also work with some great support staff at the Pro Skates I work with in the summer.  And in talking to the chiro that works with a bunch of the guys using the Hockey Stability system all of them improved in there flexibility and decreased in pain in areas of issue in past injuries. Including guys like Austin Matthews JVR and Connor Brown.  And many more. Those are guys I've worked on skates  for personally though that she worked on.. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 5:00 PM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

So an update. I also work with some great support staff at the Pro Skates I work with in the summer.  And in talking to the chiro that works with a bunch of the guys using the Hockey Stability system all of them improved in there flexibility and decreased in pain in areas of issue in past injuries. Including guys like Austin Matthews JVR and Connor Brown.  And many more. Those are guys I've worked on skates  for personally though that she worked on.. 

Is it easily transferable across skates? Say you were in a 2S pro and switched to a FT2. Based on what you did on the 2S pro, with a jump test (I assume this would still be needed) you could recommend the changes which (as long as a blade alignment wasn't required) any LHS could do?

Note - I'm asking from the approach of distance, it's expensive to send skates overseas....

Edited by Vet88

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interesting read.  Sounds like they're marketing it as a product, but it sounds like it's much more of a service being provided.  I think it'd be more clear if they market it as a service using their proprietary system.

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3 hours ago, Paddy said:

interesting read.  Sounds like they're marketing it as a product, but it sounds like it's much more of a service being provided.  I think it'd be more clear if they market it as a service using their proprietary system.

Definitely a service. 

 

And @Vet88 you can send in new skate info and the calculations will be done forbthe different model and sent to make the adjustments. 

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