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Shaine

Very desperate for help fixing uncommon skate profile problem

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Experienced skater EXTREMELY desperate for some help in regards to skate profiling different sized skates. Going to try to keep this short as possible.
 
I have custom skates where the left boot is slightly shorter in length than the right. The holder on the left boot protrudes the toe cap slightly when looking down while wearing the skates. The right boot because it is bigger, you do not see the holder stick out in front of the toe cap when looking down. Also, the skates are at least 1 size too big. (Long story on how this happened).
 
With that being said I got my skates profiled but with the system my profiler used the 3 markings on the holder for the profile are not on the same spot for both boots. Probably only 3 mm or so apart. He said it's because the boots are different size, the balance points aren't identical, so it makes sense the markings don't match up exactly.
 
I got a 8.5' / 9.5' profile (3/4 hollow) done today. The left skate feels great, thinking of trying 8' / 9' 13/16 hollow next. The right skate feels off though. When I lean forward and try to get a full hard stride out it feels like the right blade wants to catch the the outside edge which makes it feel like I'm not getting a smooth transition into the stride. Also whenever I put my weight on my right foot it feels like I have a slight hump near the front of my heel, as if it's trying to make me balance at a point I'm not supposed to be. It is felt even more so when I turn 180 degrees to my right utilizing that right skate. Lastly if I try to roll onto my tipy toe it doesn't roll as fluidly as the left skate and if I try to roll my weight back (toes up off the ice standing straight) I feel like I'm almost stuck on that same "hump" I mentioned earlier. It feels weird getting over that heel hump when leaning backwards and feel any useful blade past that point.
 
I came up with a few ideas but I'm not sure if any of them will work. 1) Ask profiler to match profile points independent of boot size difference. 2) Shift the profile on the right skate a few MM back. Not sure if it needs to be shifted forwards or back though? 3) Leave the "balance" points where he said they need to be but change the profile only on the right skate. Thinking 8' / 9'. I think the 8' in the front will help the stride issue I'm having but not sure if the 9' would help at all with that heel point issue. Has anyone ever even had different profiles for their left and right skate? That idea doesn't sound right.
 
Sorry for the long post. It could've probably been 3 times longer if I went into more detail about the custom skates, holder alignment issues and previous profiles attempted.
 
Really hoping someone can chime in with some suggestions and hopefully a fix.
 
Thanks!

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Quite a lot here to break down:

1) What is the size on both skates?  Because "slightly shorter" can be 1/4 size, which isn't much in the grand scheme of things.  I think your bigger concern here is the skates being "at least 1 size too big."

2) I can't really answer this without knowing the size of the holders.  Because in almost all cases, skates with varying sizing tend to have the same size holder.  And from what you said in the first line, I have to assume that the holder sizes are the same.  Once you can verify that, I can give you my thoughts.

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To add to JR's comments, check the holder mounts to ensure that both holders are mounted the same distance from the heel.  I'd say that somewhere around 20% of the skates I see have holders mounted too far forward on one skate. Easy to tell if both boots are the same size because you will see it looking down over the toes.  A little tougher to tell with two different sized boots.

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1 hour ago, boo10 said:

To add to JR's comments, check the holder mounts to ensure that both holders are mounted the same distance from the heel.  I'd say that somewhere around 20% of the skates I see have holders mounted too far forward on one skate. Easy to tell if both boots are the same size because you will see it looking down over the toes.  A little tougher to tell with two different sized boots.

I'd say it's far more than 20. And also sounds like the alignment is off in the shorter boot. 

Personally in these instances I always start with the profiles equal from the same door and adjust from there instead of trying to reverse it. 

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3 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Quite a lot here to break down:

1) What is the size on both skates?  Because "slightly shorter" can be 1/4 size, which isn't much in the grand scheme of things.  I think your bigger concern here is the skates being "at least 1 size too big."

2) I can't really answer this without knowing the size of the holders.  Because in almost all cases, skates with varying sizing tend to have the same size holder.  And from what you said in the first line, I have to assume that the holder sizes are the same.  Once you can verify that, I can give you my thoughts.

 

2 hours ago, boo10 said:

To add to JR's comments, check the holder mounts to ensure that both holders are mounted the same distance from the heel.  I'd say that somewhere around 20% of the skates I see have holders mounted too far forward on one skate. Easy to tell if both boots are the same size because you will see it looking down over the toes.  A little tougher to tell with two different sized boots.

Holders are 254mm. Skate came with size 5 stickers inside the tongue but have to be bigger because they feel about as big as my size 6 Grafs and it feels like I have about a finger and a half of room before my toes would hit the toe box. Originally my foot tracing was 245 mm on the left foot and 242 on the right. Yet you can tell the left boot was made smaller than the right because even though the left holder is mounted flush with the heel you can see there is no room in the front to shift it forward any further. The holder basically has no room to be mounted any further froward or back. The right skate on the other hand, is mounted about 1mm forward on the heel and has about 2mm of room in the front where it could be shifted forwards. Also as I hinted too earlier when wearing the skates and looking down I can visibly see the tip of the left holder but I'd have to lean further forwards before seeing the tip of the the holder on the right skate. Threw on a size 5.5 EE CCM skates with a 254mm holder to compare and I can see a good amount of the CCM holder sticking out when looking down in comparison to my current skates.

To expand a little, I previously had the holder on my right skate mounted crooked. During that time I was having similar issues with that right skate and in an attempt to fix it, I asked my guy to move the profile lines back a few MM on both skates (to keep them even). Much to my surprise it helped the right skate tremendously but the left skate which was fine, now felt horrible.

Recently I was able to get the skate company to remount the holders with correct alignment. The right skate now felt pretty good but the left was still bothering me. Remembering this happened after shifting the profile lines back a few MM. I now decided to shift them back forward (fresh original profile by same guy). It is worth noting that at this time I also changed the profile on both skates from a straight 10' to a 8.5' / 9.5' which is something I had already tried in the past. Right away I felt the difference going back from the straight 10' to the 8.5 in the front which felt a little awkward, but once I adjusted I loved it. Even thinking of going to 8' / 9'. Anyway, after this adjustment the left skate feels great but the right now feels off again, even with the corrected alignment of the new holders.

This leads me to believe that if I shift ONLY the left skates point of balance back a few MM again it might fix everything once and for all. Not sure though b/c when I had done this previously and it helped, the holder had been crooked. The thing is though, like my profiler said, the profile is supposed to be set to the boot center not the blade or the holder. This change makes it where we'd now be ignoring the right boots center balance and moving the point of balance back a few MM in an effort to match the left boots.

Lastly, I was measuring the 3 lines of the profile on the blade with a tape measure. What I found out is it looks like from the front line to the back line both blades measure at 13 cm. BUT the right skate measures a flat 7 mm from mid line marking to front and 6 mm from mid line mark to back. Wheres the left skate measures 7.2 mm from mid to front and 5.8 from mid to back. Not sure what this mean. Is it different because the boots have different center points of balance due to their different sizes?

Edited by Shaine

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My thought is he used a Blademaster boot gauge to determine center...and that’s why the two are different. 

Swap the steel and see if the problem moves over to the smaller skate. 

He should’ve done the measurements from one boot. 

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35 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

My thought is he used a Blademaster boot gauge to determine center...and that’s why the two are different. 

Swap the steel and see if the problem moves over to the smaller skate. 

He should’ve done the measurements from one boot. 

He uses the Maximum Edge system by Bob Allen for the profiling. Not sure what he used to determine the center but if I remember correctly it was a flat surface on a table looking thing with a ruler. You basically hitch the skate blade onto a "track" with the boot upright and use the attached "ruler system" to determine the points. When he did this he showed me that this tool indicated one boot was shorter than the other and therefor the profile points would be slightly different.

I hadn't thought about switching the blades. Good idea! Going to try that tomorrow.

Edited by Shaine

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3 hours ago, Shaine said:

He uses the Maximum Edge system by Bob Allen for the profiling. Not sure what he used to determine the center but if I remember correctly it was a flat surface on a table looking thing with a ruler. You basically hitch the skate blade onto a "track" with the boot upright and use the attached "ruler system" to determine the points. When he did this he showed me that this tool indicated one boot was shorter than the other and therefor the profile points would be slightly different.

I hadn't thought about switching the blades. Good idea! Going to try that tomorrow.

If the holders & runners are equal size and the holders are mounted properly. The points on the profile should be the same. 

Sounds like your skate guy is over thinking it.

Edited by stick9
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6 hours ago, Shaine said:

 it feels like I have about a finger and a half of room before my toes would hit the toe box. 

This is the bit that I'd be concerned about the most. They are customs and I am struggling to understand why you would live with this unless you deliberately want the skates to be this big (ie for a longer holder)? 

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5 hours ago, stick9 said:

If the holders & runners are equal size and the holders are mounted properly. The points on the profile should be the same. 

Sounds like your skate guy is over thinking it.

Agreed. 

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On 7/13/2019 at 1:52 PM, Shaine said:

He uses the Maximum Edge system by Bob Allen for the profiling. Not sure what he used to determine the center but if I remember correctly it was a flat surface on a table looking thing with a ruler. You basically hitch the skate blade onto a "track" with the boot upright and use the attached "ruler system" to determine the points. When he did this he showed me that this tool indicated one boot was shorter than the other and therefor the profile points would be slightly different.

I hadn't thought about switching the blades. Good idea! Going to try that tomorrow.

That is the aforementioned Blademaster boot gauge.

Still have no idea what the size difference is between the two, but it sounds like there wasn't any reason to have two different profiled.  Should've measured out from one boot then done both steels the same. 

And how do you not know what size skates you have?  What brand?

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On 7/13/2019 at 1:17 PM, JR Boucicaut said:

My thought is he used a Blademaster boot gauge to determine center...and that’s why the two are different. 

Swap the steel and see if the problem moves over to the smaller skate. 

He should’ve done the measurements from one boot. 

I took your advice and swapped the blades. I immediately noticed the left skate now felt horrible. The right one now felt much better but I'm not 100% convinced it felt as good as the left skate did when it had that blade on it. Maybe because the left skate is the smaller and more proper fitting of the two. Not sure.

The most clear feeling of the bad blade is when I shift my weight forward it doesn't transition smoothly towards the toe to get a nice smooth quick stride. It feels like I lean forward and hit "an early stop point" before I can get to my toe (keeps me flat footed/too much mid blade on ice) is the best I can describe it. Also when doing a tight 180 degree turn it feels like the part of the blade (near the heel) that is being used is a bit different from one blade to the other.

To make a long story short, I drove an hour today but when I got there my guy was feeling sick and dizzy. Figured doing it another day was a good idea but he insisted since I was already there we did it today. I left the bad blade on the left skate and asked him to just match the blade to the markings on that left holder. After some talking, what he ended up doing instead was putting the blade back onto the right skate and just shifted all three markings on the skate back 2 mm, then proceeded with the profile. I'm going to test it out tonight and see how it goes.

Once I got home I took some measurements. I'm having a hard time staying optimistic because previously the holder markings on the bad skate measured 13 cm, 7 cm mid mark to front and 6 cm mid mark to back. With the new markings it's a total of 12.8 cm. Mid to front is 7.05 cm and mid to back is 5.75 cm. Now, I don't know what this all means but I do know that those markings aren't equal on both skates. Also the skate that has felt good to me was originally profiled on the holder that has marking measurements of 13 cm, 7.2 cm and 5.8 cm.

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You need both blades profiled the exact same way. If not, you'll be chasing the issue forever.

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Not a fitting expert but if something as fundamental as size is off as much as you say it is, profiling isn’t going to help much.  Bad profiling may compound the problem but you have layers of variables to sort out.  And now it is in your head every time something may feel weird you are going to question your skates.

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On 7/15/2019 at 5:48 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

That is the aforementioned Blademaster boot gauge.

Still have no idea what the size difference is between the two, but it sounds like there wasn't any reason to have two different profiled.  Should've measured out from one boot then done both steels the same. 

And how do you not know what size skates you have?  What brand?

Skates came to me about 2 years ago and like I said, the only thing that specified size was two small round stickers that were on the inside of each tongue. They both had the number 5 on them. The skates are from VH/True hockey. They were made right around the time True bought them out but hadn't fully transitioned yet. I also should add that at the time I ordered them they did not have any local shops to scan, so I did it the old school foot trace at home with pictures way. What doesn't make sense is that my left foot trace measures 245 mm and the right measures 242 mm yet it looks like the left skate is actually smaller than the right. Not sure how that happened. Also, they asked me what size shoes I wear which I believe I overestimated due to normally having larger shoes to accommodate my wide forefoot. They also asked what size holder I was accustomed to skating in, which I specified 254 mm. Lastly, they asked me what size skate I wear now which at the time was a size 6 Graf. Size 5.5 EE Tacks (junior skates) are also not wide enough on my forefoot even after punching it out and are too loose on the ankle. a few months ago I was measured with the machine/scan for Bauer/CCM and my suggested skates by the scans were 5.0 Tacks and 5.0/4.75 Nexus.

When I ordered my skates from VH/True, I was going through a time where I was recovering from a knee problem and my ankles weren't in great shape either. These problems were developed over time from skating 4-7 days a week sometimes having my skates on for 8 hrs at a time. When I got my new custom skates I was so excited and despite having some extra room in the front they felt so comfy that I decided to keep them. I figured any issues I was having was due to adjusting to new skates and still recovering from my knee and ankle.

As time went on, I started noticing that I was still having some right knee problems that would come and go depending on how often I was skating and also because of a general feeling of awkwardness on the ice, like something was off. That's when someone pointed out to me that my holder was so misaligned that it was almost hanging off the boot on the outer back part of the right skate. This is when I decided to get in touch with True. My first experience was pretty bad but somewhat expected considering I was pretty far out of the warranty period. After a few attempts and emails with pictures, I was finally able to get the guy I was speaking to at True to take the skates back so they could remount the holder properly. I was extremely disappointed when I got my skates back and it looked like they did nothing but a re-rivet job. Yet, I tried to convince myself maybe they moved it slightly enough that I didn't notice but enough that it would fix the problem. Sure enough, it didn't. I went on to re-bake with the different techniques provided by True, add insoles to reduce the volume and use the various other tricks they suggest but I was still having issues.

Fast forward a few months. Knowing that I was now even further outside the warranty period, I called True and asked them since they had not fixed the problem if they could at least give me a discount on a new pair. The person I spoke to on the phone this time was different from the first guy. After hearing my story he was much more sympathetic and offered to repair the alignment issue right away. He went above and beyond what I expected. He really helped make up for the very disappointing previous experience I had.

I excluded all of this from the original post in an attempt to try to shorten the original post, but for anyone that was interested, there it is. The sum of all these posts is how I ended up with improper fitting skates that have a profile issue.

Edited by Shaine

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On 7/15/2019 at 5:48 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

That is the aforementioned Blademaster boot gauge.

Still have no idea what the size difference is between the two, but it sounds like there wasn't any reason to have two different profiled.  Should've measured out from one boot then done both steels the same. 

And how do you not know what size skates you have?  What brand?

I will be in Minnesota at the end of the month, near Saint Paul airport. Do you know anyone in that area you could recommend to do a fresh profile?

Edited by Shaine

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I know you spent a lot of money on these skates but honestly, wearing skates 1+ sizes too big is never going to feel "right". Did you ever check the insoles? They should have a number on the bottom which indicates the insole size which would be closer to the actual skate size.  Also pull out the insoles and stand on them to see if there's a lot of excess room. 

What I noticed with the true skates is that the end of their toe cap is convex which is different than other brands which goes straight up. So even if your feet fit the insoles right at the edge, you probably won't feel the end of the toe cap because of how it protrudes out a bit. I think that is why they add the toe plugs which are thicker in the middle to make up for the shape of the toe cap.  

I agree with you that asking for someone's runner size is pointless. A lot of ppl have ill fitting shoes. Heck a lot have ill fitting skates and those questions definitely messed with how your skates turned out. Even holder sizes.... Shouldn't really matter. They still ask those questions now but imo, the scan with pics of your feet and also pics of your feet on the brannock device should be all they need. Skate holder size should be determined by them according to the skate size unless you specifically request a certain size. 

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On 7/21/2019 at 2:26 AM, Sniper9 said:

I know you spent a lot of money on these skates but honestly, wearing skates 1+ sizes too big is never going to feel "right". Did you ever check the insoles? They should have a number on the bottom which indicates the insole size which would be closer to the actual skate size.  Also pull out the insoles and stand on them to see if there's a lot of excess room. 

What I noticed with the true skates is that the end of their toe cap is convex which is different than other brands which goes straight up. So even if your feet fit the insoles right at the edge, you probably won't feel the end of the toe cap because of how it protrudes out a bit. I think that is why they add the toe plugs which are thicker in the middle to make up for the shape of the toe cap.  

I agree with you that asking for someone's runner size is pointless. A lot of ppl have ill fitting shoes. Heck a lot have ill fitting skates and those questions definitely messed with how your skates turned out. Even holder sizes.... Shouldn't really matter. They still ask those questions now but imo, the scan with pics of your feet and also pics of your feet on the brannock device should be all they need. Skate holder size should be determined by them according to the skate size unless you specifically request a certain size. 

Thanks Sniper9,

Yea, I finally had enough and decided to go get scanned for some brand new True's this past Saturday. I don't believe the scans have been fully submitted yet because I wanted to make sure I talked to my contact over at True to go over the scan and finalize some details before we move ahead. Unfortunately, he is out of the office for this week so I'm patiently waiting while he gets to enjoy his very well-deserved vacation. Great guy and the reason I didn't make the switch to try CCM customs.

If you could help me out with your opinion on holder/runner combos that would be appreciated. I'm trying to ask as many people as possible before I make a decision. I've been recommended Bauer Edge by many but my only experience with Bauer is some Supremes I had 20 years back which I hated when I made the switch from Tacks 652's. I've recently skated on Grafs G9035's with Cobra holders which I liked. I've also owned a pair of CCM Tacks that have the SB 4.0 with Hyperglide's and performance-wise that might be my favorite skates yet. Right now my True's have Step steel. I have Black Step steel which is what I normally skate on and regular Step steel which I seldom skate on. Truth be told performance-wise I struggle to find a difference but I do feel that the Black steel holds an edge longer than my Hyperglides used to.

I had the pleasure of talking to JR recently and with the info I gave him he had me leaning towards XS holders with Tydan steel. He alerted me to the fact Tydan makes their blade shapes to mimic the shape of what you would get on off the shelf skates of that brand. Since I liked my SB 4.0 and Hyperglides I feel like this might be the best choice. To add to that as much as I love the quality of my Black Step steel I really dislike how much extra steel there is on the toe and heel. I want to avoid having to profile. Now, will I wish I had that extra steel on the toe and heels when my new skates come in and are size 246/7mm vs 254 mm I skate on now? Maybe, and that is one of the things that is making it hard for me to make this decision.

Do you think there is a difference in the way it feels when skating with an Edge holder vs an XS holder if both have the same aftermarket steel? Or are those holders so similar now that it feels the same? Does the rivet holes on True, XS and Edge holders all line-up for easy switching in case I change my mind down the road?

Edit: Right now they don't offer the new True Shift holders under 254mm. Not sure if that will change in the future.

Edited by Shaine

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There is a difference between the edge, SB, xs, true holders. Aside from their blade release mechanism, stiffness is the biggest one. Edge holders are notoriously more flexible than the others mentioned. I currently have SB 4.0s with step blacksteel. I've used the older true holders ls2 tuuks and also edge. My least favorite were the edge due to the flexibility and also had bad luck with steel movement in them. 

I loved my ls2 holders but I have to say I felt the best with the true holders and my current SB 4.0 setup. I think it's because of the stiffness of the holders. I also like the idea of having a bolt holding the steel. Gives me piece of mind. 

In terms of what holder you get it's all personal preference, but what I will suggest is to get your skates without the true holders mounted and have either ur hockey shop or true predrill the boots for whatever holder you choose. Because you can't get holder only, this is your next best option. What you don't want to do is get your skates with the true holder mounted only to have them taken off and have other holders on. 

The holders you listed, aside from the shift holders, have holes that line up for the most part, but it's not 100% identical. Some holes may need to be widened. If this isn't done it'll cause the rivet to go in on a slight angle possibly causing issues.  

Hope that helped.  I'm not expert like some others on here but that's the info I can provide from my experience. Too bad they don't make the shift holders in ur size because I'd give that a shot. Mind you the shift holders have completely different rivet holes. 

Edited by Sniper9
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On 7/13/2019 at 8:36 AM, boo10 said:

To add to JR's comments, check the holder mounts to ensure that both holders are mounted the same distance from the heel.  I'd say that somewhere around 20% of the skates I see have holders mounted too far forward on one skate. Easy to tell if both boots are the same size because you will see it looking down over the toes.  A little tougher to tell with two different sized boots.

Hello, I just got Tuuk Edge holders (263) installed on my FT1’s size 6.5. The left holder is mounted further away from the heel than the right skate. There is 6 new holes drilled on the right skate (heel) and it looks to be only 1-2 new holes drilled on the left skate (heel). Will I feel a difference when I get on the ice? 

Edited by Shogun
Mistake

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23 hours ago, Shogun said:

Hello, I just got Tuuk Edge holders (263) installed on my FT1’s size 6.5. The left holder is mounted further away from the heel than the right skate. There is 6 new holes drilled on the right skate (heel) and it looks to be only 1-2 new holes drilled on the left skate (heel). Will I feel a difference when I get on the ice? 

Only one way to find out. But since it's in your head already you're probably gonna "notice" it whether it's really there or not ..

We're the original holders 254 or were they 263?

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1 minute ago, Sniper9 said:

Only one way to find out. But since it's in your head already you're probably gonna "notice" it whether it's really there or not ..

We're the original holders 254 or were they 263?

They were 254, and yeah, it’s definitely in my head 😞 It’s bugging me big time. 

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20 minutes ago, Shogun said:

They were 254, and yeah, it’s definitely in my head 😞 It’s bugging me big time. 

Was there a reason why you wanted to up the size?  

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11 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Was there a reason why you wanted to up the size?  

I’ve always been a size 7 in Vapors. I bought the FT1’s when they came out in size 7. Back in March, a buddy of mine has FT1’s, too, but in size 6.5 and he was going to sell them. I decided to try them on and they fit, ahah. Not sure if they stretch a bit over time, but they fit pretty good, so I bought them off him. Couldn’t get used to the smaller holder (254), just felt off balance. 

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