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Sniper9

Bauer vs Step lawsuit

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I find it interesting that CCM's community question site had a questionnaire the day this happened asking whether or not they would switch skates if they couldn't use a steel they preferred.

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2 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Bauer uses the same steel composition in the LS3.

You answered your last question.  They have a better reputation at this point.  The LS4 launch wasn't good for Bauer.

But in the initial article, it states that Bauer will be offering new steel.

Interesting if LS3 is the same alloy and hardness as Step.  You would think EQM’s wouldn’t bother with Step.  A former NHL EQM swears by Step over anything stock from Bauer.

In reality, the right radius and hollow with a good edge will mean more than the brand of steel.  Might just have to get it sharpened a bit more.  At least the LS3 has a good amount of steel to keep the radius intact since it changes with sharpening.

Maybe the new Bauer steel will be an improvement.  But good steel still doesn’t fix lousy sharpening which is still a problem at many LHS.

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5 hours ago, psulion22 said:

Why would most pros care (or even know) what kind of steel they're using?  They have EQMs to care for them.  Things like durability and edge retention matter to guys like us that want to have sharp skates without having to pay for sharpenings or steel more often.  They matter to an EQM who has to sharpen and maintain dozens of pairs of skates/runners in a short period of time.  As long as the skates are sharp and cut to give the characteristics the player likes, pros don't give one second's thought to what brand of steel is on the skate.  Bauer isn't going to alienate any pros by doing this.  They may piss off a few EQMs who have to cut skates more often, but that's not likely to affect thier usage amongst players in the league.

You haven't been in an NHL dressing room before have you? I was in Toronto's yesterday and both the Bauer and CCM guy were there. He is not happy about it at all. Another guy in a Canadian city is livid. He has 4 guys that came to him already and told him to buy every pair available.  They don't want Bauer steel as it is. 

 

If you think NHL players dont think about edge retention your crazy. 

 

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I did say most.  I'm sure there are some who care.  And of those, I'd suggest it's because they either had a bad experience with Bauer steel, most likely breakage with the first run of LS4, or they predate quick change steel (or refuse to wear Edge holders).  These guys have EQMS to maintain their blades.  They have holders that can swap steel out in seconds.  If they wanted, guys could have steel with a fresh edge every shift.  Edge retention is a non-issue for a guy that's skating 5-10 minutes before a skate could be recut during an intermission.  Just stop it.  I'd say they are much more likely to worry about breakage or failure with the holder than how long an edge that won't get dull (unless there is a damaging incident) will last.  Maybe before quick change holders, or for guys that refuse to use those (but those guys aren't affected by this), I could see it being a concern because that meant taking off a skate and a long change process.  But not anymore.  Most guys just want sharp edges that feel the same every shift, they don't care how they get them.

Edited by psulion22

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Bauer has had steel stock issues for years. That would bother me the most about this. They’d better be prepared to have ample supply for the foreseeable future if this is how they’re going about things. 
 

min my experience, I’d say pro guys are pretty in tune with their edges. But about 5% can tell you what they like and what they want. The rest will just tell you what they don’t like, or that something is off. 

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5 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

You haven't been in an NHL dressing room before have you? I was in Toronto's yesterday and both the Bauer and CCM guy were there. He is not happy about it at all. Another guy in a Canadian city is livid. He has 4 guys that came to him already and told him to buy every pair available.  They don't want Bauer steel as it is. 

If you think NHL players dont think about edge retention your crazy. 

+1 on this. My step brother is part of the Kings organisation and the same thing is happening there. If it's happening at 2 organisations then you can bet your house on it happening all over the league. 

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its comical to read all of this and be able to tell right away who is a cheerleader for one brand or another, especially if there is something to gain or perks to be had. pro's know and have choices or else a skate would be a skate, a glove would be a glove, a helmet would be a helmet..........

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50 minutes ago, skatedoktor said:

its comical to read all of this and be able to tell right away who is a cheerleader for one brand or another, especially if there is something to gain or perks to be had. pro's know and have choices or else a skate would be a skate, a glove would be a glove, a helmet would be a helmet..........

I'm just going to go ahead and assume that this is a shot at me, because I'm the only person who has posted in this thread that everyone knows what I've done and where I've been, because I've been transparent since 2004. I have absolutely nothing to "gain or perks to be had."

I'm merely stating the facts that are out there.  To recap - Bauer had a patent.  They felt a brand, STEP, was in violation of said patent.  They decided to bring a lawsuit forward, and they reached a settlement.  And I know it sucks for STEP, and I know it sucks for Canadian dealers, even the ones who sold across the border.  But that's how it goes.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

I'm just going to go ahead and assume that this is a shot at me, because I'm the only person who has posted in this thread that everyone knows what I've done and where I've been, because I've been transparent since 2004. I have absolutely nothing to "gain or perks to be had."

I'm merely stating the facts that are out there.  To recap - Bauer had a patent.  They felt a brand, STEP, was in violation of said patent.  They decided to bring a lawsuit forward, and they reached a settlement.  And I know it sucks for STEP, and I know it sucks for Canadian dealers, even the ones who sold across the border.  But that's how it goes.

 

 

Ya. you made so much and got soooooooo much free stuff. 

Hows that new Maclaren. ik on my 3rd now that I have my 7000 sqft mansion. 

it's a pro shop and skate sharpening. Nobody is getting rich here but Bauer. 

 

🙄

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it wasn't intended for anyone specifically, but the waters do and can get muddy.  Everyone has brand preferences or a strong brand following or loyalties.  But for some to say some eqm's won't care or players don't know is absurd.  I agree with protecting intellectual property.  I can only assume there will be some blow back from eqm's to bauer.  Bauer and Step's steel quality isn't the same, maybe time will tell if it changes.  Surprised licensing agreement wasn't attainable 

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19 hours ago, stljrs said:

Interesting if LS3 is the same alloy and hardness as Step.  You would think EQM’s wouldn’t bother with Step.  A former NHL EQM swears by Step over anything stock from Bauer.

It is.  Same Sandvik composition. 

Also, Bauer offers pro teams a LS3 version which has a more game-ready shape. 

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Not trying to derail anything, but: Is this better steel composition for LS3-Edge only or also for the "old" LS3 steel for the LS2 holder? (Which would also mean that Bauer had recognized this earlier than I thought)

Edited by gosinger

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All of LS3, old mount included.  Never noticed that it was always made in Canada whereas all of the rest of Bauer steel was made in Asia?

Had no bearing on what transpired now.

31 minutes ago, gosinger said:

Not trying to derail anything, but: Is this better steel composition for LS3-Edge only or also for the "old" LS3 steel for the LS2 holder? (Which would also mean that Bauer had recognized this earlier than I thought)

 

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1 hour ago, JR Boucicaut said:

It is.  Same Sandvik composition. 

Also, Bauer offers pro teams a LS3 version which has a more game-ready shape. 

It maybe but there is something  not the same as the Step. It maybe the same base but isnt the same quality.

And I spoke to 2 eqm managers that are debating switching to CCM holders. 

I know many more are not happy. This maybe a different case then last time  

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5 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

All of LS3, old mount included.  Never noticed that it was always made in Canada whereas all of the rest of Bauer steel was made in Asia?

I switched on my LS2 holders to LS3 before step became widely available in Europe, and the LHS commented upon initial sharpening like "wow, thats some quality iron you got there" - LS3 had always matching profiles on both blades, the steel always felt pretty neat. The LS2/LS-Fusion/etc was always sold/given away instantly 🙂

Just checked my stock, Tuuk LS3 steel for the LS2 holder states "TUUK LS3 STEEL PKG (2) Canada" and "Printed in Canada", same as a Tuuk LS2 steel for the LS Edge holder, so at least no difference on the packaging - don't have any LS2 steel for LS2 holder to compare to.

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Why is it other companies (Massive, Bladetech, etc) can sell replacement runners for the Edge holder, but Step can’t? Did those companies work out a licensing deal? And, did Step refuse to pay that license, or Bauer wouldn’t even offer it to them? 

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22 minutes ago, start_today said:

Why is it other companies (Massive, Bladetech, etc) can sell replacement runners for the Edge holder, but Step can’t? Did those companies work out a licensing deal? And, did Step refuse to pay that license, or Bauer wouldn’t even offer it to them? 

Probably just a matter of time. It makes sense to go after the biggest name first.

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10 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

Probably just a matter of time. It makes sense to go after the biggest name first.

Correct. I spoke with all of them and they have yet to hear anything and are hoping they dont. Until then,. Its business as usual for them. 

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41 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Correct. I spoke with all of them and they have yet to hear anything and are hoping they dont. Until then,. Its business as usual for them. 

That's 100 false.  They are not telling you the truth. 2 of them have recieved them in the past!

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At least five years ago Bauer started cutting corners on steel on skates. They would put LS2 Edge steel on the $210 price point skate and LS1 on the $325 price point skate. I remember the first time they did this when the rep was showing the new skate lineup. I asked about this immediately and there was no good answer. Obviously, Bauer was cutting corners on product cost for steel in order to squeeze some more $$ out of dealers/customers. LS1 was never offered in the catalog but there it was on product. Even given Bauer's change in management over the last few years, this LS1 steel is still used on their skates. While this info is a bit off topic, it is an example to me of how Bauer has dumbed down their own statement products. After all, Bauer earned their name as a skate company !!

We sold LS5 in the shop the first few months it was available. As sharpeners, we were not impressed. Once we sold our intial inventory, we never reordered. The difference in sharpening Step vs Bauer steel is so noticeable on the wheel. It really is pleasurable to sharpen Step. I have it on my skates. I've been given Bauer steel but am not interested in using it.

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Aren't pro stock Bauer steel different than retail?  I've seen some on eBay that say made in Canada.... 

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2 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

Aren't pro stock Bauer steel different than retail?  I've seen some on eBay that say made in Canada.... 

That was mentioned above by JR. However myself I still don't feel it sharpens as well or holds the edge as well. .my personal opinion.  Its said to be the same but I don't think its finished the same to have the same edge retention 

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If other 3rd party companies “can expect letters,” why are they able to sell their Edge runners in the US, but Step couldn’t, and was confined to Canada? Was that a choice Step made to try to play by the rules? 

Sorry if I’m getting into the weeds, the behind the scenes business issues of all this stuff intrigues me. 

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26 minutes ago, start_today said:

If other 3rd party companies “can expect letters,” why are they able to sell their Edge runners in the US, but Step couldn’t, and was confined to Canada? Was that a choice Step made to try to play by the rules? 

Sorry if I’m getting into the weeds, the behind the scenes business issues of all this stuff intrigues me. 

As I understand it, STEP chose not to violate US patent law and played by the rules.  That is why they could not sell in the US.  The others, if they are selling in the US, are violating US patent law.

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26 minutes ago, start_today said:

If other 3rd party companies “can expect letters,” why are they able to sell their Edge runners in the US, but Step couldn’t, and was confined to Canada? Was that a choice Step made to try to play by the rules? 

Sorry if I’m getting into the weeds, the behind the scenes business issues of all this stuff intrigues me. 

My guess is, Step had the biggest impact on Bauer's business. Which is why, even though they played by the rules, Bauer went after them first. 

From day one, I always thought Bauer made a giant mistake by not licensing the Edge runner tech. The money in licensing fees would have been equal to, if not more than what Bauer would make selling their own steel. Far less headache too.

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