Lee-Bro

17 snare drums.

I can't remember who did the research, but I recall reading about the emotional attachment shoppers will get from over analyzing a purchase. Essentially if they are trying to decide between option A, B, and C, even though they conclude option B is best for them, they may not make a purchase at all because they've subconsciously become attached to A and C as well through all the research and saying "no" to those options doesn't feel right. That's the short version of it and I'm certain I saw it more than a few times in my old retail days of musical equipment. There's a whole bunch of info out there on behavioral finance (spending) and how to help a client work through it, not become paralyzed by indecision, and preserve your own business development.

"Retail would be a great business, if it weren't for the people."

Whether I'm buying hockey gear, shop tools, musical gear, etc., I typically ask if there's a package or combo special. When I started hockey last year, I told the co-owner (who fitted my skates) that I wasn't sure I was going to go "all in" just yet. I mentioned I wanted to get gloves and skates. He said he'd give me 10% off if I bought them together. Sold.

I understand your reasoning but respectfully disagree. For security purposes, I keep a low purchase allowance on my debit card. I know other people do not do the same. Charge cards are different and have different financial protections. Either way, I have access to my financial resources and can cover a "no checks" policy if needed.

Non-hockey related retail store I used to work at had check approval but the store owner had a policy that the check processing fee had to be paid in cash by the customer. You simply can't roll it into the amount of the check due to it perpetually affects the amount the check would need to be. Interesting side note, I was part of a discussion with some retailers (non-hockey) about implementing a PayPal checkout option in-store. I'll comeback and update if anything develops.

...which is exactly why I ALWAYS get the name of the person I speak with, give them my name, note the date & time, and let them know I'll be asking for them when I go to the store, who to ask for if they aren't there and ask they let this person know I'm coming. Believe me, I learned early on in my retail career (not hockey related) to do this on my end so when someone came in I spoke with, I took care of them, got the sale (usually) and built the relationship with them.

Dude, punctuation and spell-check are the rant's friend.

To the D2 guy playing down in my D5 league, I owe you big time for "sweep the leg Johnny" you gave me from behind. Yeah, I played the rest of the game with a sore ankle, but your b.s. move has left me with a sprained ankle.

At 40 years of age, and only on ice skates only maybe a dozen times in my life, I had my first game ever last night. I played defense most of the night. Here's probably the clearest pic. We won 7-5.

This. My shoe size will range anywhere from 9.5 to 10.5 depending on what type of shoe, manufacturer, and style. When buying shoes I'll typically start at the 10 and go from there. There's a couple 11s in there too. For my running shoes, I've never bought the same shoe twice (updates & such). I bring in my current shoe, talk to the associate about what I like, they look at the wear pattern, measure me and we go from there. I got into hockey just before the holidays and I went to 2 diff't LHSs. The first store had me feeling good in a 8.5 Reebok 4k (can't remember width). The second (better stocked & where I purchased) had me feeling good in Vapor 30s @ a 9EE.

Yeah, actually there have been patents on drum hardware. Tama Drums introduced the Lever-Glide hi-hat stand 20+ years ago and had patents on the the level-glide system, they also have patents on their off-the-shell mounts or "suspension mounts" -which opens up the tone & sound of the drum. Other companies have their version of suspension mounts and each are patented. The concept of suspension mounts aren't new. RIMS were introduced in '79 and were the first mass-marketed version. They were, in fact, used by DW until they developed their own version. Most lesser-known drum companies use the RIMS system until they develop their own. </derail> I get what everyone is saying. I think the difference between the music gear then & hockey gear now, is that back then the drum market wasn't as competitive, we didn't have internet stuff and the drum reps would openly tell us some of their stuff was same as ABC generic brand only w/ their hardware. I doubt they'd own up to it today and I'm certain a Bauer rep wouldn't say their X:20 is the same as the CCM V02 they each just put their own label on it. (Now don't get in a hussy, I know they're not, just using an example). I'll stop this journey down the music road because once you get a drummer started... I will say that I find it funny my 2nd expensive hobby is played w/ sticks, wrapped in the same tape as my sticks from my first hobby.

Well it seems hockey gear is a lot like music gear: There are brand loyalists and there are those who wants whatever works best for them. To share some insight: Drum Workshop (DW Drums) used to buy their drum shells from Keller, a shell manufacturer here in the states. They would put their own style lugs & such on them, paint (or cover) them, cut bearing edges and send them out the door obviously as DW Drums. Nothing wrong w/ that. I sold tons of them and they are a high-end drum. Nowadays, DW makes their own shells. No biggie. Anyone could buy shells from Keller and do exactly what DW did. Many did, and many still do. But back in the day, some people came in to specifically buy a DW kit and would save money for an additional 6 months to buy one instead of buying another Keller shell-provided drumset at about 65% of the cost of the DW. Although, the drummers in the know would usually give the other custom drum companies business because they knew the shells were the same as DW's. I'm guessing that it comes down to: 1) Does the customer need to see the name brand on his/her gear? 2) Does the off-brand have the ability to entice someone to give them a try? 3) What incentives do store-owners have for adding lesser known brands? 4) Does the evolution/updating of gear render off-brands an inventory liability? Oh, let me share this with you: This is drumstick tape. It usually goes for $8-$10/roll in most music stores. Yes, this is the EXACT same sticky tape for hockey at $3/roll. Here's another type of stick "tape": It's not actually tape, it's like a thick cloth-tape w/o the sticky side. Think of a super-scaled down steering wheel cover -hence the tape at the top & bottom. $8 to wrap only 4 sticks.

Would like everyone's thoughts on this and sorry for another music industry reference... Some of the companies I used to represent would have their hardware and lower line drums "factory produced" -meaning they outsourced them (even though they were already in Asia). A lot of times you could buy 3 name brand cymbal stands and 2 "budget friendly" stands, they'd all be exactly the same with the only difference is the packaging for each and the 3 name brands were significantly more -usually 50%-100% more. You could buy a name brand snare drum and a generic that had the same shell, but maybe the lugs were different, again, name brand more expensive. I had several reps tell me certain pieces were in fact the same as the inexpensive or competitor's versions other than packaging and came from the same source. When customers came into the store looking for a cymbal stand (as an example), I would show them the name brand and an off-brand and how they were exactly the same. Unless they psychologically needed the brand name sticker on there, they'd usually go for the more inexpensive version. I read the thread about counterfeit gear and it reminded me of this. So what I'd like to know from the LHS owners or those w/ experience is: Is there a such thing as an OEM version of gear in the hockey world? Example, if XYZ123 Company outsources their Hulka-Hulka gloves and the factory offers their version under a different name, Smasha-Smasha, if they're made on the same line from same materials, do you consider this: OEM, counterfeit, or off-brand? I'm newer to the hockey gear world so if this is old-hat, it's new for me. Thanks for your thoughts. And FTR, I claim trademark rights no "Hulka-Hulka" and "Smasha-Smasha." :-)

It's discouraging when you invest so much time, energy, and knowledge into someone and they pull turn out to be a Clyde* We all learn the hard way though. One thing I used to do w/ my non-exclusive type semi-regulars was after spending some time explaining diff't product lines, etc, would be to give them the version of my business card that had my direct line & VM and tell them that I want to be their "drum guy." Meaning that if they wanted to buy something we didn't have in stock or normally carry, they'd call me first; if they were price shopping to give me a chance to put together package deal*; and if they ever had a gear emergency, to call me first because my store was the only one in town w/ delivery service and mobile repair truck*. Clyde - store visitors who never bought, only pumped us for knowledge, demo'd our equipment; named after a guy named Clyded who bought all his kids equipment from a catalog after checking everything out in the store. The store owner ended up having to tell him, as polite as possible, not to come back. Package Deal-a lot of times, I knew there was no way I could price match. The next best thing I could do was put together a package (eg: drum kit, extra heads, box of sticks, extra cymbal stand, cymbal bag, t-shirts) and see if they would go for it. I'd say I had about a 50% success rate w/ that. If they took the deal, I ended up moving more inventory, at a slightly lower overall margin, but now they "have a guy." The times it didn't work out, I'd say it's because they were price shopping because they had only so many dollars. Mobile Repair Truck-It was a late 80's Nissan w/ a cap on the back. It's amazing how much stuff you can get into one of those things.

Reading the Bauer warranty thread about someone buying 2 sticks of the same model but at different times to return the older (broken) stick under the new stick warranty, it made me think of my days in music retail. Almost all the music manufacturers put serial numbers on everything. Every cymbal, individual drum, guitar, effects pedal, etc had a unique serial number. At check out, we would record serial numbers on the receipt for warranty (and our protection) purposes. There were a few exceptions because not every company used numbers on all their lines of products. But I must say that once I instituted this policy, the number of claims we helped process went down. As a side note to that, it did not cost us the sales of the 2nd purchase. Many clients were very pleased to find out that we were doing that because some of the companies had mail-in warranty registration cards. We sent all these in for the customer at the time of purchase as a value-add service. The companies now had a record of ownership & purchase. In addition, a few of the companies we dealt with kept chain of command records -meaning they knew when it left the factory, which distribution center it went to, which LMS (local music store) bought it for their inventory, and for those who actually had warranty registration cards, who ended up buying it at the retail store. You'd think putting serial numbers on receipts at time of purchase would've been a standard procedure. But not so. I found out that what we were doing was "against the grain" of what a lot of other stores were doing -which was actually ENCOURAGING the "buy, break, buy, switch & claim" process. I spoke w/ a few of the LMS owners who did this and their position was a customer who only had a 1 year warranty on something now pretty much gave the customer an unlimited warranty. All that was 15+ years ago so I'm not sure how much serial number recording is going on, but I do know more manufacturers are issuing them and requiring registration now. It's not that hard to imprint a serial number on modern gear and/or sticks. I wonder how many manufacturers have experimented with this? A final note for you LHS owners, here's something we did at the music store on all non-serialed products: if you want to create you're own serial number system, get white or invisible (blacklight reactive) U.V. paint (sometimes referred to as "blacklight paint") and a stamp pad kit. You stamp the date of purchase, store initials or something similar. You determine the best place for the stamp, maybe 2 places, for each different product -maybe gloves get it between the cuffs, under the caps on shoulders, etc. Since it's UV, it's not visible to the naked eye (if you go that route). You keep a black light handy that way when someone brings something in, you check it for your mark. If a stamp doesn't fit/work, you can always get UV paint pens. Cheers!

I'm trying really hard to not get more involved in this conversation. That being said... I understand the limited selection locally=buying online. As long we all agree on that, my next point... The issue I have is when a customer goes to a store, gets fitted and THEN buys the exact thing online when they could've bought the product at the store, even if it's more. You get what you pay for. Some people look at this strictly as product purchase. That's perfectly fine, just don't use an LHS' service to determine your product selection or at least pay them for the service. Another poster mentioned: "However, if you lhs has it, you can check it out, then buy it cheaper online. I mean in the eyes of the lhs owner, it is a pretty s***** thing to do, but in the eyes on the consumer, it is a reassuring thing a person can do before they invest in a product." To be blunt, the LHS made a much larger investment than any customer without any reassurance. As an entrepreneur they took on the risk of independent business and all the fun stuff entailed there. The point being is it's unethical to use someone's time, service, and their resources to save money. How much do you think skilled and knowledgeable labor is worth per hour...$50, $75, $150? If you use their inventory as your research tools, you're contributing to their inability to buy larger inventories and offer better pricing. You're hunting yourself into starvation. In my previous post about the differences between LHS & virtual stores I mentioned labor costs. Even if YOU, YOURSELF, are super delicate and polite, not everyone is that way and repeated handling does cause wear & tear on inventory -which I already addressed. But to make up for margin lost on those items, margin has to be maintained on other items. We're all adults and understand all of these points. What I'm reading is that the real rub people are feeling about this particular discussion is not rewarding those who do the work of providing a service by being there for your research, especially when the exact or similar enough product could have been bought from the LHS. Inventory sucks? Ok, go online. Teenage kids working the desk suck? Ok, go online -but make sure you let the LHS owner know that you'd like to give him the business but his investment (staff) is making it hard for you to invest with him. Most LHS owners I've met work the counter at some point. You live where hockey doesn't exist? Fine, go online or next time you take a trip, do some Googling and let the LHS' know you'll be in town and you'd appreciate some time. A final note, for whatever reason or feelings you have about LHS vs. online, if you're not able to give the business to the LHS even for the exact same product you tried on and you don't believe in paying a service fee, buy the guys lunch. You'd be amazed as to how much good will a large pepperoni pizza and 2 liter of Coke will buy you. Most LHS' are somewhat close to a pizza joint of some sort (pizza from the rink doesn't count). Pizza & Cokes can easily be done under $15. You'll be welcomed back w/ open arms for that one even if you didn't spend a penny.

It's a nice sentiment, but that's such blanket statement that doesn't even begin to address phase-out, subsidy issues, residency vs. proximity, tax filing status, etc. Ask Canadians about their mortgage interest deduction. I'd hate to see this discussion/board spiral into a tax-debate, but your comment while helpful in nature, gave me a brain twitch...and I haven't gotten over the previous one when I had to explain to a 22 year old what porridge is when she's never even heard the word.

The virtual retail & brick & mortar retail environment are totally different. Here are some things to take note of: 1) The LHS has to deal w/ theft of product. --Most online stores use drop shipping or a much more rigid inventory control system. 2) The LHS has to deal w/ customers breaking, tearing, scuffing, etc equipment in the process of trying it out. This ends up as warranty claim, discount rack, or loss item. --Online stores have this but at a MUCH lower rate. Must damaged goods are a result of shipping. 3) The LHS is limited in man-hours. This has two affects: 1)The store loses sales when "real" paying customers don't get serviced because the sales staff is helping an online shopper who's in the store; 2)The online store is always there. Buyers can check inventory, read reviews, get feedback, etc at anytime. The LHS can only do so during business hours or if lucky, they have info on their site. 4) Unless the LHS is a true brick & mortar, all sales require a person. --Online stores give you the ability to purchase all the gear & accessories you want without the labor costs of someone to ring you up. 5) By their nature, a local LHS will sell only to their locale. An online store can sell to anyone they can ship to. --This means different prices points for the 2 when buying inventory. The online store can buy & sell more, so they can get a better price break or other specials from their suppliers/manufacturers. --This also means that when suppliers are blowing our their inventories, they will make offers and specials available to those who were their bigger buyers/customers initially. This gives the online shops first refusal opportunities for stuff that may never make it to the LHS for crazy blowout prices. 6) Space is limited for the LHS. Online retailers typically have much more space to accommodate older gear they are blowing out and new gear coming in. From my music gear days, the drop-ship catalog guys usually had 25%-50% of their warehouse space available. 7) The LHS can provide someone in person who can point out the differences between a 5100, 5400, 8500, 9500, or 9900 Bauer Helmet, tell you the history of Bauer, and all the other gear companies (most of the time). You're not going to get that 30 minutes of conversation from an 800 toll free number because it's costing them the long distance fees to educate you. You may be able to get the info in the email, but it's not real time w/ real product that you can touch, feel, smell, taste, try-on, etc. 8) and this is the biggie...Relationships are priceless. I used to manage a drum & guitar store. I had clients for years and knew the gear they had. I also had "visitors" that never bought anything but maybe a pack of strings ($6-$12) twice a year, but came to the store every month to jam and see what's new. The clients from time to time would call me w/ a gear emergency. Those guys got loaner gear from the store, or I stayed late, or met them somewhere, or even lent them my personal gear. The "visitor" guys would call with an emergency (usually a warranty related issue) and even though it was an opportunity to turn them into a client by going out of my way (and money) to help them, I learned early on that if I didn't assess a service fee, I'd never get any business from them. I'd always explain that for items purchased at the store, we waive the service fee. Never lead any visitor-to-client conversions. To this day, more than 15 years since leaving the music retail world, I still have drum & cymbal companies contact me about store recommendations and background info on musicians in my area. I also have working musicians who know I don't sell gear anymore still contact me about an introduction for an endorsement deal. In the end, it's your money and your decision. Every purchase has a value equation. It's up to each person to reconcile their needs, their opinion, time, expectations and checkbook through that formula.

Man, I feel for all you LHS guys. I've been there in a diff't industry, in a previous life. In my former life I was a drum store manager. Everything you guys have said about hockey is true of music gear: -They try it out in the store, get all the info from you, then order from a catalog (we didn't have internet back then). -Kids run around messing up my displays or improper handling everything -try polishing fingerprints off 200 cymbals on a weekly basis around Xmas time. -Kids wind up to hit a cymbal like their trying to ring the bell at a carnival test of strength contest, because that's how drums are played on MTV. -Parents want to buy a custom $5000 drum set for their, ahem "gifted", child who only thinks he wants to play the drums. -Equipment that mysteriously has grown legs and walked out of the store. -Customers who think I was ripping them off because they didn't understand pricing will be diff't for catalog vs. brick & mortar stores due basic operating fundamentals. -You guys hate funky laces, I always hated someone bringing me a snare drum saying it sounds terrible and they've duct taped the hell out of it, or even worse, they use a maxi-pad as a muffler on it (happened more than once, with diff't guys). -Having your glove wall mixed up is akin to having the drumstick bin all mixed up. I was always finding marching sticks (lincoln log looking) mixed in with the 7A (think Tinker Toy diameter). I'm completely new to playing hockey. I know about all the online retailers but won't use that as leverage for the guys who can spend 20 minutes explaining to me why my fat ass shouldn't be in a "starter" skate. When I bought my skates, I made the guy very aware that I don't know anything (differences between product lines) about hockey gear so I may ask dumb questions. He was totally cool and told me while we were fitting the skates that he could probably "do something" on the price for me to help get me started. I ended up buying skates & a pair of gloves that day and he even took $15 off the gloves too. He's my guy from now on. I referee women's roller derby in Cincinnati, but my derby gear guy is in Cleveland. I could buy stuff online cheaper, but for 2 years now my guy has always given me the straight story. I can call him for a need and it'll be at my house by the end of the week. I am willing to pay for service and knowledge. As I said, I feel for LHS guys knowing that sometimes people come in and use you as the "practice date."