Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[AfftonDad 88]

For the X01 owners, do you have any feelings on the approximate sharpenings/week max that it can handle? Any regrets not going with the X02?

I'm trying to gauge which would work better... Right now I have 2 mites and myself to sharpen for... but I have a feeling when I do buy a machine, I'll be sharpening for a few of their friends on the team. I'm wondering if I do 5-10 pairs a week, if I should jump up to the x02, or save the money for extra wheels/spinners/other accessories?

I wish I would have bought the X-02. I bought the X-01 for me and my son. I figured I would do a couple of others skates for free as well. Once word got out though it got to be a lot more pairs than I expected. I'm probably doing 20-30 pairs a month now. I had to start charging (albeit only $4) to cover my expenses and to keep people from giving them to me every time they see me. Anyway, my X-01 has been making some minor noises for several months now that I think is maybe a rough spot that forms on the bearings (or maybe some grit). The noise evenutally works itself out but I'm constantly wondering if it is going to shoot craps. Blackstone has assured me that replacing the motor is neither that difficult nor that expensive. But if/when it finally does go south, if they will sell me an X-02 without a holder I may go that route instead.

BTW... I am not slighting the X-01 in any way. I'm using it more than it was intended for.

Edited February 7, 2011 by AfftonDad

[Katzenjammer 1]

Hi Guys, I'm going to give this cut a try this week - trying to get a sense of how good this really is. I know the good stuff; in trying to find negatives I came across these quotes and thought maybe someone who knows their stuff might want to address them.

The comments may be completely erroneous - just wondered what you guys thought. They were in the comments section to an article on NHL Digest.

The numbers professed by the mfg are ridiculous. No measurement device short of a laser could make the measurements. Of 8 AAA players who trialed this system 7 went back to traditional. Too much of a need to have the edge redone. Not durable at all. I suspect many NHLers may get it only because they get sharpened up between periods if they want or even between shifts! Not worth the effort. The spinners I got from blackstone were manufactured grossly inaccurate with huge tolerances compared to the specs they profess! If you like accurate edges – stay clear of this !

The FBV is more ‘hype’ than anything else. I’ve been sharpening skates professionally since 1969 and a PROPERLY sharpened ROH blade will outperform any FBV blade.

The ‘spin dresser’ grinding wheels used on any FBV process cannot make the smooth mirror finish that a properly diamond dressed wheel can make on a blade……PERIOD.

The skate sharpener CANNOT ‘dress’ the FBV grinding wheels

This is simply a ‘better mousetrap’ placibo. Not as many NHL PLAYERS are using this as the manufacturer and their salespeople would have you believe.

The OHL’s Windsor Spitfires just won ‘back to back’ Memorial Cups using TRADITIONAL ROH sharpenings.

One of the biggest drawbacks is that FBV blades will loose their edges (bite) very quickly and unexpectantly. this is fine for players who have a trainer READy to redo their skates whenever. 99% of hockey players do not have that luxury.

Got it done last week and used this sharpening for 3 games now. I don’t like it at this point as it feels like my blades are dull and not much grip. I don’t know the grind my sharpener used but I need more bite. I’ll be speaking with him tomorrow about it. If he can get me more edge such as the 100-75 in the pic above I may stick with it. If not, I’m going back to the way I’ve had my skates sharpened for the last 35yrs.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

People who have axes to grind (no pun intended)

Why not try it out for yourself? The benefits are there.

[Katzenjammer 1]

People who have axes to grind (no pun intended)

Why not try it out for yourself? The benefits are there.

So you don't find those criticisms are accurate - still use an FBV and won't go back to an ROH?

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Yep. 2 and a half years. Neither have the people I sharpen for.

Every single one has stayed with it.

Went back to ROH once for testing purposes (which I recommend to all who try FBV and skate on it for a while, the results will surprise you.)

You have to be dead accurate on a FBV, and if you are not, the results can be disastrous. I believe that to be the case with the quotes above.

[Katzenjammer 1]

Yep. 2 and a half years. Neither have the people I sharpen for.

Every single one has stayed with it.

Went back to ROH once for testing purposes (which I recommend to all who try FBV and skate on it for a while, the results will surprise you.)

You have to be dead accurate on a FBV, and if you are not, the results can be disastrous. I believe that to be the case with the quotes above.

I see. No icing "Bob" in NH will be doing mine.

[Katzenjammer 1]

Aka "Jimmy" on here. And after going to the FBV a year or so ago I'd never use a normal ROH again to play on. I have a 3rd set of steel (the OEM Graf) that I have done locally with a 1/2" and use it only for public skates or outdoor ice. It feels like skating in sand compared to the FBV. It works.

Thanks - I'm looking forward to trying it; one concern I have is that the edging won't be gradual, kind of either off or on, with no in between. A hollow has a nice, even rise. That's just using good old farmer's logic though. We'll see.

[jimmy 194]

So you don't find those criticisms are accurate - still use an FBV and won't go back to an ROH?

Are you kidding? No, the criticisms, are not accurate. The FBV has been out for 3 yrs now. IMO if someone doesn't like the FBV it is because whomever did their FBV likely didn't do it correctly, or their machine wasn't calibrated correctly, or they tried only one FBV setting and didn't try another. I would say less than 1 of every 1000 who switched to FBV didn't like it.

The FBV actually holds edges LONGER than traditional hollow sharpening. With hollows, the edges are always wearing no matter what the skater is doing. With FBV, the edges only wear when turning or stopping. Most of my customers say the FBV lasts as long or longer than regular sharpenings, virtually none say it lasts less. This is no BS. I can't explain why more than 70% of my customers have switched to FBV, other than they love it and would never go back. Some have switched to the Z channel, but less than a hand full have gone back to hollows.

The stone can certainly be "dressed" clean by the spinner. Also a smooth finish can be achieved easily. I'd love to talk to the douchebag sharpener who says this can't be done. I'll invite him to my shop and do it right in front of his eyes, over and over again. Dumba$$. Of course, if you have a bad sharpener to begin with, (which is very common), you will not get a good FBV. Recently one of my customers who couldn't make it to me, and he had his skates done by a shop in Wilmington, MA, they now do FBV. He showed up at my shop today, looking for me to fix it. I suspect, all the negatives associated with FBV's can be blamed on just poor sharpeners.

[EvilPepe 24]

The stone can certainly be "dressed" clean by the spinner. Also a smooth finish can be achieved easily. I'd love to talk to the douchebag sharpener who says this can't be done. I'll invite him to my shop and do it right in front of his eyes, over and over again. Dumba$$. Of course, if you have a bad sharpener to begin with, (which is very common), you will not get a good FBV. Recently one of my customers who couldn't make it to me, and he had his skates done by a shop in Wilmington, MA, they now do FBV. He showed up at my shop today, looking for me to fix it. I suspect, all the negatives associated with FBV's can be blamed on just poor sharpeners.

Wait, you mean a guy who has sharpened skates for 40 years could possibly be a crappy sharpener?

Every time there is a large enough tournament in town I get "that guy" who once sharpened skates for *insert name drop here* during the '70s and thinks there are only two proper cuts - "goalie" and "regular". Anything beyond that is crap and a gimmick. Of course, every one of these guys has a team of saps who buy everything he says. Doing something wrong for 40 years doesn't make it any more right.

I'd echo what JR and Jimmy have said - those complaints are unfounded. We've had it for a year or so and have about 40% off our regulars using it, and I can only think of ONE who switched back because they didn't like it. Any others that did only did so because they couldn't get used to having FBV when home, and then having to switch back to a regular hollow when on the road because they couldn't get it done after losing an edge in a game.

[Shayno 1]

I switched back to reguler sharpening.....never felt "sharp" enough with FBV???? Not for me....My 2

[Katzenjammer 1]

I switched back to reguler sharpening.....never felt "sharp" enough with FBV???? Not for me....My 2

Interesting. Did you try many different shapes?

[MLSman 22]

Switched a year ago...and will never look back. It sucks that no one locally has it...but rotating and shipping steel costs about the same as a sharpening...so no complaints. I do 90/75 in the winter and 90/50 in the spring-summer. The glide of the FBV is the largest advantage and it works.

[Katzenjammer 1]

Switched a year ago...and will never look back. It sucks that no one locally has it...but rotating and shipping steel costs about the same as a sharpening...so no complaints. I do 90/75 in the winter and 90/50 in the spring-summer. The glide of the FBV is the largest advantage and it works.

Any changes - positive or negative - that you see in edging and turning?

[Anjin-san 29]

I tried FBV (100/50 as I normally skate on 9/16 ROH). I liked it but as stated above FBV is not forgiving if not done correctly (ie, uneven edges). My issue was that sometimes it was done right (by JR) and sometimes it wasn't (when done by others at RDV). I switched back to ROH because it's more forgiving of uneven edges.

[automorph 0]

skating lessons people, skating lessons......fbv advantage wont showup until technique is good

[coldshoulder 0]

Any changes - positive or negative - that you see in edging and turning?

Finished 2nd season on 100/50 playing C/LW and for me, the edges are better than traditional.

FBV edges seem to grab better making it easier to turn with less effort.

Local sharpener is only guy I trust. I've got multiple sets of runners that I swap out on the road, so I know what kind of edges I've got.

[Anjin-san 29]

skating lessons people, skating lessons......fbv advantage wont showup until technique is good

I definitely noticed the advantages to FBV. However when it's not done correctly (ie, uneven edges) the results are disastrous (as stated above by others).

My problem is I can't always find someone like JR to sharpen my skates therefore sometimes they don't come out even. This has lead me to buy my own edge checker. Now everytime I have my skates sharpened I hold on to the receipt (which indicates who sharpened them) and check the results myself. If a particular person did a poor job I know who it was and avoid them in the future.

[rachael7 1]

The advantages were and are very real for me. I made the switch a year or so ago and I will never go back. I did try a switch back as a test and I also felt like I was skating in mud.

I can't speak to bad sharpenings (I do my own and I seem to be pretty consistent), although any bad sharpening can ruin your night. I had regular ROH done so badly once, they were so uneven I could only turn to the right. Miserable. Like I said, I've never had the equivalent on FBV, since no local shops do it so I've only ever had my own edges to try. But I can say that several of the 'negative' comments look pretty suspicious. At least one, regarding measurements and such has been echoed nearly verbatim here as well. I won't start a flame war, but lets just say that I wasn't convinced by a long shot. Its worth remembering that there is money involved here, which means that any anonymous comments, positive or negative, should be taken with a very large grain of salt. Try it for yourself and see. Its a cheap, easily reversible experiment that is not complicated to run and then you'll know.

[Katzenjammer 1]

The advantages were and are very real for me. I made the switch a year or so ago and I will never go back. I did try a switch back as a test and I also felt like I was skating in mud.

I can't speak to bad sharpenings (I do my own and I seem to be pretty consistent), although any bad sharpening can ruin your night. I had regular ROH done so badly once, they were so uneven I could only turn to the right. Miserable. Like I said, I've never had the equivalent on FBV, since no local shops do it so I've only ever had my own edges to try. But I can say that several of the 'negative' comments look pretty suspicious. At least one, regarding measurements and such has been echoed nearly verbatim here as well. I won't start a flame war, but lets just say that I wasn't convinced by a long shot. Its worth remembering that there is money involved here, which means that any anonymous comments, positive or negative, should be taken with a very large grain of salt. Try it for yourself and see. Its a cheap, easily reversible experiment that is not complicated to run and then you'll know.

Thanks Rachael - I'm trying it out on Friday. Perhaps you might be able to address another question I have. One concern I have is that the edging won't be gradual, kind of either off or on, with no in between. A ROH has a nice, even rise - whcih allows for a gradual onset of bite - say, as the skate is increasingly angled (everything else being equal.) One practical result of this is that you can slightly engage the edges - for example, when entering a tight turn at high speed and slowing a bit by slightly engaging edges briefly (as if stopping), and then fully engaging them for the tight turn. There are countless other scenarios, as you know.

I suppose I'm wondering if I'll give this ^^ up - simple farmer's logic tells me that the FVB edge is EITHER fully engaged - or NOT. Or am I wrong in this?

[rachael7 1]

Thanks Rachael - I'm trying it out on Friday. Perhaps you might be able to address another question I have. One concern I have is that the edging won't be gradual, kind of either off or on, with no in between. A ROH has a nice, even rise - whcih allows for a gradual onset of bite - say, as the skate is increasingly angled (everything else being equal.) One practical result of this is that you can slightly engage the edges - for example, when entering a tight turn at high speed and slowing a bit by slightly engaging edges briefly (as if stopping), and then fully engaging them for the tight turn. There are countless other scenarios, as you know.

I suppose I'm wondering if I'll give this ^^ up - simple farmer's logic tells me that the FVB edge is EITHER fully engaged - or NOT. Or am I wrong in this?

You're welcome. I think I know the feeling you're referring to - I've experienced it with sharpenings on too small a hollow (too 'sharp'), with both ROH and FBV. It's like the edge is either biting or sliding, but transitioning between the two is difficult and finding intermediate amounts of bite is even more difficult. When I experienced that problem, with both FBV and ROH, I just went one step less 'sharp' (I hate using that term to describe hollow geometry) and the problem went away. Equating FBV to ROH is not an exact formula - the technology is different - so it is distinctly possible you'll get the wrong setting the first time and have that sort of feeling. But don't get discouraged until you've tried at least two settings - once you have the right setting, edge control is most definitely NOT a problem. I have every bit as much control over my edges with FBV as I ever did with ROH and engaging them gradually or partially is no more difficult for me than it was before.

For what its worth, several people I've put in FBV ended up on 100/50 after going up and down a few times; it seems to be a nice middle ground that works for a lot of people and it is my wintertime 'standard grind' for friends and teammates. Its also the one I use when I'm doing a pair of skates for someone that's never tried FBV before, doesn't know anything about sharpening, and just plain doesn't care. I don't even bother to tell them about the FBV technology - I just leave my regular spinner on and do their skates - and I've never had a complaint.

[AfftonDad 88]

I agree with JR and Rachel that going back to ROH once is a useful exercise for anyone that has used FBV for a while to (re)convince yourself. When I switched from ROH to FBV the performance difference was definately noticable and welcomed but it didn't seem HUGE. Since I have my own sharpener and they sent me a 1/2" spinner with it I decided to try 1/2" one day going to a stick and puck with my son. I didn't even want to stay for the entire session! I have used the same words Rachel did every time I tell someone about that experiment.... "It was like skating through mud". I don't know why it seemed to be a much greater change going from FBV to ROH than it did going from ROH to FBV, but the difference was huge. I am sure there is some psychology involved that accounts for the perceived difference.

Regarding the ability to control the edging... It has always been my perception that (and I have said this to many people) I am more able to control the "amount" of edging with FBV than ROH.

Having said all that, you really need to be able to trust that the guy doing the sharpening is getting very even edges or have some way of checking edge evenesss yourself. I think that it is probably a true statement that a botched FBV sharpening is worse than a botched ROH sharpening.

Edited April 12, 2011 by AfftonDad

[Katzenjammer 1]

I agree with JR and Rachel that going back to ROH once is a useful exercise for anyone that has used FBV for a while to (re)convince yourself. When I switched from ROH to FBV the performance difference was definately noticable and welcomed but it didn't seem HUGE. Since I have my own sharpener and they sent me a 1/2" spinner with it I decided to try 1/2" one day going to a stick and puck with my son. I didn't even want to stay for the entire session! I have used the same words Rachel did every time I tell someone about that experiment.... "It was like skating through mud". I don't know why it seemed to be a much greater change going from FBV to ROH than it did going from ROH to FBV, but the difference was huge. I am sure there is some psychology involved that accounts for the perceived difference.

Regarding the ability to control the edging... It has always been my perception that (and I have said this to many people) I am more able to control the "amount" of edging with FBV than ROH.

Having said all that, you really need to be able to trust that the guy doing the sharpening is getting very even edges or have some way of checking edge evenesss yourself. I think that it is probably a true statement that a botched FBV sharpening is worse than a botched ROH sharpening.

Great answer thanks! Are NHL/elite players too much creatures of habit or have they adopted the FBV in droves?

[AfftonDad 88]

Great answer thanks! Are NHL/elite players too much creatures of habit or have they adopted the FBV in droves?

I don't know where it stands now, but most of us on this thread have read the article (two years old now I think) that said that some 20+ NHL teams had added FBV capability to their arsenel. Since it is a relatively low cost impact to such a big organization I can't imagine that they don't all have the capability now. That of course doesn't speak to the question of how many of the players on each team are using it though. If Blackstone people are still monitoring this thread they could possibly comment on that.

Edited April 12, 2011 by AfftonDad

[mnpucker 33]

I have to agree with Rachel and JR. Getting in touch with ROH once in awhile will make you appreciate FBV all over again. Regarding poor sharpening jobs, now that I own my own X02 sharpener I know that if I did not I would invest in some sort of edge checker. I would not leave the shop without checking it. I suppose you could have the shop clamp the edge checker on prior to leaving the shop to insure a level sharpening. You are paying money, simply ask the shop to show you if the edges are level.....I think that is fair. There is absolutely no reason you should have to go out and waste an hour on ice to confirm if they did their job right.

No way you cant appreciate FBV once you find the right hollow and it is done properly.

[Katzenjammer 1]

I have to agree with Rachel and JR. Getting in touch with ROH once in awhile will make you appreciate FBV all over again. Regarding poor sharpening jobs, now that I own my own X02 sharpener I know that if I did not I would invest in some sort of edge checker. I would not leave the shop without checking it. I suppose you could have the shop clamp the edge checker on prior to leaving the shop to insure a level sharpening. You are paying money, simply ask the shop to show you if the edges are level.....I think that is fair. There is absolutely no reason you should have to go out and waste an hour on ice to confirm if they did their job right.

No way you cant appreciate FBV once you find the right hollow and it is done properly.

Speaking of owning your own shapner (you, Rachel, and JR) - is it fairly easy to learn?