Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[shooter27 116]

Its pretty cool. When working with goalies there has been a lot of times they want to have more bite on the inside edges, what we did is take a FBV and make the inside edge have more bite than the outside edge while maintaining the equal edges. When the goalies skate on it they have equal edges and really don't have that awkward feeling of one edge lower than the other anymore. We than were testing it on players and are finding out that the inside edge is more predominantly used than the outside edge and are starting to look at the effects, that's for another day however Jagr is having some fun with that.

So can I infer that you've had some success with asymmetrical flat bottom sharpening in skaters as well as goalies? That surprises me

[wrangler 157]

Frankly, I don't know how people can't feel a difference with FBV. I was convinced that it was all marketing and not going to be useful, I was wrong. It took all of three strides to be convinced and I am not the worlds greatest skater, as anyone who has seen me skate will be happy to confirm.

I noticed the difference as soon as I stepped on the ice. I glided noticeably farther before I had to stride again.

[Original Six 1]

I've heard & read these positive comments about FBV from a lot of people... and this is why I remain interested in exploring this further. And by the same token it also leads me to wonder if a lack of skill/maintenance on the part of the folks at the shops where I've tried it is the reason I haven't noticed any improvement. I appreciate all the glowing positive endorsements; probably 100 of the 108 pages in this forum are full of them... this is why I tried asking this forum community for a copy of the study as I was sure someone here would have it.

[jimmy 194]

I've heard & read these positive comments about FBV from a lot of people... and this is why I remain interested in exploring this further. And by the same token it also leads me to wonder if a lack of skill/maintenance on the part of the folks at the shops where I've tried it is the reason I haven't noticed any improvement. I appreciate all the glowing positive endorsements; probably 100 of the 108 pages in this forum are full of them... this is why I tried asking this forum community for a copy of the study as I was sure someone here would have it.

Some shops lie and tell you they do the FBV when they actually don't. They don't want to lose your business. This could be why you may not feel any difference. First thing I would do is check to see if you are actually getting the real FBV. Then getting it done correctly is a whole other issue.

Edited April 5, 2013 by jimmy

[Mikej411 2]

I've heard & read these positive comments about FBV from a lot of people... and this is why I remain interested in exploring this further. And by the same token it also leads me to wonder if a lack of skill/maintenance on the part of the folks at the shops where I've tried it is the reason I haven't noticed any improvement. I appreciate all the glowing positive endorsements; probably 100 of the 108 pages in this forum are full of them... this is why I tried asking this forum community for a copy of the study as I was sure someone here would have it.

What area exactly are you not seeing improvement in?

Going from 1/2ROH to 100/50FBV, the only improvement should be glide, correct? And I don't think getting a bad sharpening would reduce this extra glide. A majority of bad sharpenings would just give you uneven edges, causing instability on edges, correct?

Edited April 5, 2013 by Mikej411

[Original Six 1]

The local place has a Blackstone machine with two sharpening heads and a third head that is used for cross grinding. One of the two heads has a traditional ROH single diamond dresser and the other head takes spinners. The guy even places a tiny "100/50" sticker on the tuck of each skate. So short of climbing over the counter and pulling out the spinner to read it, I have no reason to believe that they are trying to fool me... if they are it is a pretty elaborate hoax. I have been to other places and have asked specifically for Blackstone FBV and have either been told that they only have Blademaster BFD, but "it's just as good" and other places where they have tried to fool me into thinking it was FBV, when in fact it was BFD. And I've also experienced my share of "botched" jobs with uneven edges, more steel taken off one runner than the other, profile ruined, you name it. And all of this fun has come at the hands of not only people that check their work by holding the skate up to the light and shaving their finger nails, but even with people who actually checked their work with a gauge. This is why I sharpen my own skates.

In any event, thank you all for your responses to my posts... I've taken up enough of this forum's time and will resume my quest for the Holy Grail; the elusive Ottawa study.

[All Flash 49]

Possible for you to send your steel off to noicing sports and or another reputable shop you know from this forum to do them?

Might be easiest if you got extra steel.

[Original Six 1]

Good idea - thanks for the suggestion. I've read very positive testimonials about No Icing. I just checked their web site and I can order new steel from them with FBV and the conbo radius I'm used to... not a cheap proposition, but much cheaper than buying a new sharpener... at least I'll know they did it right and if I notice a significant improvement, then I'll feel confident in buying a new sharpener. Thanks again.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

I'll do you one better.

Cover shipping and I'll sharpen the hollow of your choice for free.

Then you can decide whether or not you'd like FBV.

[mjpisat 36]

Will u do that for anybody? I was just turned on to this today by some dude. I think he sends his steel to new Hampshire

[regsharp 4]

OriginalSix-- don't know where you are at but I will offer the same as JR if you are in my area (mpls); don't post here much so won't go so far as to extend the shipping part since nobody knows who I am.

But after being firmly in the 'disbelief' camp until I had a chance to try it for myself, now I'm not sure how one doesn't feel the difference. One of the funnier things I've seen/heard was from my younger boy, who's skates I've been sharpening for years at an increasingly shallower hollow as he's gotten older (now 13, and was at 5/8" ROH) asked my after the 1st time he skated on the 90/1 fbv, "What did you do to my skates?" -- probably because I didn't tell him beforehand that I changed it out as I wanted to get an honest appraisal of fvb, and I got it :-) He adjusted quickly to the extra speed he carried throughout his transitions and into/out of corners even with that deep of 'fang' on somewhat soft ice.

[Original Six 1]

Thanks for the offer guys... very generous and much appreciated. Unfortunately, I "checked-out" after my last post and didn't check the forum until just now or I would've taken you guys up on the offer... already placed an order with No Icing. I'll post again after I take it for a spin.

[Original Six 1]

Sorry for the hiatus; I wanted to get enough ice time in before coming back to post anything.

And yes, I did notice a difference this time; no disadvantages and improved glide. I wouldn’t describe it as “life changing,” particularly in game situations vs. drills, but definitely better. Admittedly, enough of a difference to consider buying an FBV capable sharpener. Now the question becomes, which Blackstone portable. I believe I’m familiar with the “obvious” differences (wheel sizes, differences in motors, etc.) between the various FBV capable Blackstone portable machines, both “professional” and their “home” X01 & X02 machines, but I would really appreciate hearing from anyone that has had “hands-on” experience using various Blackstone portables. As an example of what “I think I know” - the X02 has a more robust motor than the X01, and as such, is better suited to handle greater “volume,” but what I don’t know is if it also produces better results, or for that matter, are there any cons accompanying the obvious pros? E.g. the wheel spins at twice the speed on the X02 and it is much more aggressive; making it more difficult to use, requiring greater skill, needing to use higher grit wheels to mitigate the increased RPMs, etc. Are there significant differences/advantages between an FC02 and an X02? Is it easier to get better results with the “pro” model because it is “smoother” &/or has a more generous table size? Is there an advantage to a U12 Trie-Lie holder over an X12, or are they just different because the wheel height is different? Is there any difference in ease of use or quality of a sharpening because the FC02 is direct drive and the X02 belt drive (I read on this forum somewhere that the belt drive is noisier/clunkier)? I don’t anticipate having to sharpen very many pairs of skates each week, but by the same token I may be willing to pay up for a “pro” model if it produces better results, is easier to use, and is more durable/reliable. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[Chadd 916]

The FC02 allows you to use the Blackstone Shaping System to profile your steel, you can not do that with either of the X series machines.

[smcgreg 81]

Sorry for the hiatus; I wanted to get enough ice time in before coming back to post anything.

And yes, I did notice a difference this time; no disadvantages and improved glide. I wouldn’t describe it as “life changing,” particularly in game situations vs. drills, but definitely better. Admittedly, enough of a difference to consider buying an FBV capable sharpener. Now the question becomes, which Blackstone portable. I believe I’m familiar with the “obvious” differences (wheel sizes, differences in motors, etc.) between the various FBV capable Blackstone portable machines, both “professional” and their “home” X01 & X02 machines, but I would really appreciate hearing from anyone that has had “hands-on” experience using various Blackstone portables. As an example of what “I think I know” - the X02 has a more robust motor than the X01, and as such, is better suited to handle greater “volume,” but what I don’t know is if it also produces better results, or for that matter, are there any cons accompanying the obvious pros? E.g. the wheel spins at twice the speed on the X02 and it is much more aggressive; making it more difficult to use, requiring greater skill, needing to use higher grit wheels to mitigate the increased RPMs, etc. Are there significant differences/advantages between an FC02 and an X02? Is it easier to get better results with the “pro” model because it is “smoother” &/or has a more generous table size? Is there an advantage to a U12 Trie-Lie holder over an X12, or are they just different because the wheel height is different? Is there any difference in ease of use or quality of a sharpening because the FC02 is direct drive and the X02 belt drive (I read on this forum somewhere that the belt drive is noisier/clunkier)? I don’t anticipate having to sharpen very many pairs of skates each week, but by the same token I may be willing to pay up for a “pro” model if it produces better results, is easier to use, and is more durable/reliable. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

What cut did you end up getting? Since you were a skeptic, I'm interested in your impression/results.

[Original Six 1]

I'll answer your question first; 100/50. I thought it offered an improvement in overall performance, more so in some drills vs. others, and less so in a game situation, but all things considered, better than traditional ROH.

And while I understand why you would see me as a skeptic, I certainly wouldn't describe myself as such. You may recall that my first post on this forum was on 3/25 to ask if anyone could provide a copy of the U of Ottawa study (referred to and mentioned often) that provided conclusive findings in support of this technology and here we are almost a month later, and nobody has been able to provide a copy. I even found and contributed links to two separate studies, one by Brock on BFD and an Ottawa study on FBV... only to be told that the Ottawa study I had was an "early" study and it was the wrong one.

At this point I've given up on the idea of ever finding the elusive Ottawa study and have decided to take the plunge and buy a Blackstone sharpener. Hoping some folks on this forum who have had occasion to use different Blackstone portables (both pro & home)can share their perceptions/pros & cons of the various models. I'm primarily interested in hands-on usage experience.

<p></p>

Edited April 18, 2013 by Original Six

[smcgreg 81]

I'll answer your question first; 100/50. I thought it offered an improvement in overall performance, more so in some drills vs. others, and less so in a game situation, but all things considered, better than traditional ROH.

And while I understand why you would see me as a skeptic, I certainly wouldn't describe myself as such. You may recall that my first post on this forum was on 3/25 to ask if anyone could provide a copy of the U of Ottawa study (referred to and mentioned often) that provided conclusive findings in support of this technology and here we are almost a month later, and nobody has been able to provide a copy. I even found and contributed links to two separate studies, one by Brock on BFD and an Ottawa study on FBV... only to be told that the Ottawa study I had was an "early" study and it was the wrong one.

At this point I've given up on the idea of ever finding the elusive Ottawa study and have decided to take the plunge and buy a Blackstone sharpener. Hoping some folks on this forum who have had occasion to use different Blackstone portables (both pro & home)can share their perceptions/pros & cons of the various models. I'm primarily interested in hands-on usage experience.

<p></p>

Thanks for the response.

Well, your description of yourself indicates to me that you are a skeptic.... in a good way. There are many intangibles in skating/hockey. Therefore, in my case, before going to FBV, I wanted to get objective data just like you. Further, the guy who sharpens my skates, and who is a certified FBV guy, tells me there is no benefit to the FBV. He charges more just like anybody else, but says he's sharpened an entire team with FBV and they couldn't tell the difference. To his credit, he can make more money for the sharpening, but dissuades potential customers from getting it; go figure. That being said, I don't put a lot of stock in what this guy says right now. At the same time, it is a balancing opinion to those on the forum who swear by FBV. So, having followed your posts on the topic to some extent, I was curious to see your impressions.

I will likely be trying FBV in the future after I have fully adapted to my Makos and can be a bit more certain that any noticeable change (good or bad) would be a result of the sharpening. Right now, after only having been on the Makos for a week or so, I don't think that's possible. I am definitely leaning more towards it now after your impressions. Then if I think there is value, I will likely get a sharpener as well. With an 8 yr and a 5 yr and myself, it will pay for itself in relatively short time frame.

[giogolf 9]

I rotated between to runners, LS2 (Stock), and Step Steel... Both are profiled to 9' and neutral pitch. I rotate so I always have sharp skates; problem is my LS2 last 2 skates and my Step Steel last 4-5 skates before dulling.

Would FBV buy me more time on the LS2 between sharpening, since it appears that the walls supporting the edge seem thicker than a traditional rocker?

BTW, I use a 5/8th ROH

[AfftonDad 88]

Add me to the list of those who don't see how someone couldn't tell the difference. When I switched to FBV I noticed a small but noticeable improvement. However, after skating on it for many months, I wanted to re-acquaint myself with what the difference felt like. Since I have my own sharpener and I was going to a stick and puck with my son, I put mine back to a 1/2 ROH. The difference seemed HUGE to me (much greater than I recalled the switch from ROH to FBV feeling). I didn't even want to stay for the whole stick and puck. I have described to several people that I felt like I was skating through mud.

I don't think I would want FBV though if I couldn't KNOW that the person doing it was doing it correctly. When someone doesn't do it correctly, you get that "slipping out" feeling where the skate sometimes feels like it is sliding around on it's own a bit.

[SAK 2]

When we deal with NHL players the best thing they can say is that they don't notice a difference. The benefit of it is you require less energy to do the same performance. I equate it to more beer after the game since I really can't play anymore. Have fun guys.

[McDugan 89]

Can anyone tell me the typical lifespan of the X series sharpeners? I'm thinking in terms of a purchase to use for myself and eventually my son when he's old enough to skate, maybe a few other people sometimes, but not really heavy use.

[Original Six 1]

I also asked for some insight a few days ago around the pros and cons of the different Blackstone portable sharpeners available; both pro and X series. Here is a cut n' paste from my post around which sharpener I should get:

"I believe I’m familiar with the “obvious” differences (wheel sizes, differences in motors, etc.) between the various FBV capable Blackstone portable machines, both “professional” and their “home” X01 & X02 machines, but I would really appreciate hearing from anyone that has had “hands-on” experience using various Blackstone portables. As an example of what “I think I know” - the X02 has a more robust motor than the X01, and as such, is better suited to handle greater “volume,” but what I don’t know is if it also produces better results, or for that matter, are there any cons accompanying the obvious pros? E.g. the wheel spins at twice the speed on the X02 and it is much more aggressive; making it more difficult to use, requiring greater skill, needing to use higher grit wheels to mitigate the increased RPMs, etc. Are there significant differences/advantages between an FC02 and an X02? Is it easier to get better results with the “pro” model because it is “smoother” &/or has a more generous table size? Is there an advantage to a U12 Trie-Lie holder over an X12, or are they just different because the wheel height is different? Is there any difference in ease of use or quality of a sharpening because the FC02 is direct drive and the X02 belt drive (I read on this forum somewhere that the belt drive is noisier/clunkier)? I don’t anticipate having to sharpen very many pairs of skates each week, but by the same token I may be willing to pay up for a “pro” model if it produces better results, is easier to use, and is more durable/reliable. Any advice will be greatly appreciated."

[McDugan 89]

Thanks O6 - I've been reading as much of the thread as I can. For me personally, the X-01 is the only option. I defintiely don't need more.

Really, in order to make a purchase like this, I need to consider how long I can reasonably expect the machine to last. I haven't seen any info on that. Obviously it's a product that is still in the first generation of tis life-cycle, but I mean, how long is a basic expectation? 7 years? 10? 15? etc.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[AfftonDad 88]

Thanks O6 - I've been reading as much of the thread as I can. For me personally, the X-01 is the only option. I defintiely don't need more.

Really, in order to make a purchase like this, I need to consider how long I can reasonably expect the machine to last. I haven't seen any info on that. Obviously it's a product that is still in the first generation of tis life-cycle, but I mean, how long is a basic expectation? 7 years? 10? 15? etc.

Anyone have any thoughts?

I've had my X-01 for probably 4+ years. I do around 10-20 pairs of skates a month. It works as well as it did when it was new. Having said that, knowing now that I'm doing a lot more pairs than I thought I would be (originally just thought it would me mine and my son's), I wish I would have gotten the X-02 just to be "safe". At $4 (the amount I charge) a pair, I figure it has already paid for itself.

Edited April 19, 2013 by AfftonDad

[Original Six 1]

I would think with proper maintenance and nothing catastrophic happening (like dropping one down a flight of stairs), there is no reason why these things shouldn't last a really long time. As long as the company and/or their vendors stay in business, you should be able to easily replace the motor and most parts if anything ever breaks or wears out.

The X01 does seem to be all you need. What I don't understand is how the X02 can weigh twice as much as the X01, yet it appears very similar and seems to share most of the same components... the only thing that is obviously different is the motor.