Boot too Stiff? Pain above ankle

[hockeyblood 11]

Don't want to create a new thread but I'm hoping someone could help. I'm currently wearing a bauer apx 7.5EE, lenght and width is perfect, but when I step on the ice is a whole different story. Pain all over the sides of my foot, i feel like my foot is being squished to the sides when making cuts, stops..I think it is the apx being too stiff with almost zero give on the sides that is causing me issues. Will this be resolved by getting a lesser stiff skates? I'm thinking a mid level reebok of the same size and width can do the trick? Appreciate any input, by the way...I'm from asia so there is no option of getting fitted to a local hockey shop.

[jonesy9020 77]

If you do switch to reebok, try a D as well, as the Vapors are among the most narrow lasted boots and Reebok are close to the widest.

That said, your skates might be slightly too narrow or too high arched, even if they feel all right sitting down. I had a boot that was just barely too narrow once with an arch that wouldn't flatten out enough after baking and it ended up basically with the same effect you're describing, almost pushing my feet to the outside of the skate and causing a lot of pain on the outer edge of my midfoot and through the arch. Try looking at a wider-lasted, possibly lower arched skate.

[mc88 160]

Before you buy new skates, try wearing compression socks and rebake the boot. During the molding process, stand up and sit down 3 or 4 times .DO NOT MOVE AROUND! JUST STAND UP, THEN SIT DOWN. This will stretch the heel outward a bit. Then allow 12-24 hours to cool before skating again.

If you have any pain at the BOTTOM of your ankle, then replace the insole with some Superfeet or CCM insoles.

If that doesn't work, then I'd recommend going with some higher end Reebok skates. I use them myself and I love the pump feature, as it gives me a custom ankle fit. However, I wouldn't recommend going from a high-end skate to a mid-range skate. Especially since the RBKs are known to be a softer boot. If you don't want to go top end, I'd recommend the 18Ks or 16Ks. Speaking from my experience, I did something similar to you. I went from an NXG TotalOne to a RBK 9K because the NXG boot was just too stiff. Unfortunately, the 9K lasted all but a week before the boot broke down.

[Chadd 916]

Don't want to create a new thread but I'm hoping someone could help. I'm currently wearing a bauer apx 7.5EE, lenght and width is perfect, but when I step on the ice is a whole different story. Pain all over the sides of my foot, i feel like my foot is being squished to the sides when making cuts, stops..I think it is the apx being too stiff with almost zero give on the sides that is causing me issues. Will this be resolved by getting a lesser stiff skates? I'm thinking a mid level reebok of the same size and width can do the trick? Appreciate any input, by the way...I'm from asia so there is no option of getting fitted to a local hockey shop.

A couple questions that I didn't see directly addressed:

Did you bake the boot?

Does it feel ok to stand and walk, or only when seated?

Do you wear socks when you skate?

Is the pain on the inside or outside of the foot?

Is the pain the same on both sides when you stop or turn, or does one side hurt more than the other?

[hockeyblood 11]

Chad

Did you bake the boot? Yes, twice...tried superfeet and stock footbed as well.

Does it feel ok to stand and walk, or only when seated? Skate feels ok when seated and walking.

Do you wear socks when you skate? Yes, very thin dress socks...also tried barefoot..same result

Is the pain on the inside or outside of the foot? Pain is on the outside, feeling like cramping on the sides...sometimes if i skate too long for about 2 hours..it spreads across my foot to certain parts of my arches

Is the pain the same on both sides when you stop or turn, or does one side hurt more than the other? Pain is more on the outer sides of my feet...left and right almost equal pain...i can feel it instantly when i put pressure on them like stopping and turning

[jonesy9020 77]

Blood- I have the exact same problem and have tried the same steps to remedy it, also to no avail. Biggest difference maker for me was the second bake as it seems to delay the pain from about 10 minutes into my skate to maybe a hf hour. Still, a half hour is definitely not enough. My arch pain also seems to come on sooner than yours

[hockeyblood 11]

Yeah...I always hoped that over time my foot will get stronger and get used to it, apparently not..my APX is about 2 years now and its has no signs of getting soft that would ease the pain. I'm really hoping a softer boot like the rbk's or similar would be a solution for me or if not at least reduce the pain...it really takes a toll on me sometimes and hindering me from enjoying the game fully.

[moreoutdoor 6]

Yeah...I always hoped that over time my foot will get stronger and get used to it, apparently not..my APX is about 2 years now and its has no signs of getting soft that would ease the pain. I'm really hoping a softer boot like the rbk's or similar would be a solution for me or if not at least reduce the pain...it really takes a toll on me sometimes and hindering me from enjoying the game fully.

I'll add my 2 cents... might be worth more or less...

Modern skates you can;t really expect a 'breakin' as in the normal old school boot or even the stuff from late '90s or early 2000s. If the boot breaks down, it's a materials problem (given approximate proper skater in it). Molding is the break-in and the tongue does help conform the front/top of the boot.

just to add some points...

skate boots have 'shape' and fitting is 3D (as with all footwear), so considerations in one area may affect how the foot feel somewhere else. with rigid footwear, like skates the foot form (last) becomes especially important.

In a planar consideration, the flat 'shape' of boots, varies. And 'size' affects this. You mention length and width as 'perfect', but that's your guess.

There are way more EEs solds in Mid to Upper level skates than there really are EE feet out there. WHy? Because everyone short sizes. So to fit in a short size, the last or forefoot boot width needs to be wider, hence more EEs sold. Vapors are not really 'narrow', they conform well to a D width convention for a size, except that a D will pinch when you short size (unless you have a narrower forefoot). But that's just the way things go these days.

If you fit the boot length for the toes to just barely graze the cap, then a medium width will prolly need to go to wide, to get comfortable forefoot width. Get a solid pencil behind the heel and they might be able to get their 'normal' width.

Take out the stock insole (the stock insole approximates the boot planar shape in that size). Stand barefoot on the insole. Where your foot greatly projects out over the insole, is where boot sides will pressure more inward. Compare to where you feel the pressure/pain. Do you overlap a lot at the pain spots?

You can have the apexs punched; or move to a more 'fitting size/skate.

Because a shorter boot (smaller size) puts the width across the forefoot span relatively further back, the outside-of-foot will feel greater pressure as you short size. The Ball of foot is relatively massive and compress way less than the outside of foot.

The pencil length test is only a 'convention'. It should not be a 'rule'. So many important things like arch length and instep and heel are ignored by the pencil test.

Instep pencil test - I have to ignore it cause I NEVER pass on any skate reasonable sized... Many skaters won;t pass this one...

Without having sizes to try on, you're in an expensive 'buy and test' mode.

One thing you can do to narrow this down, if you have a rink with hockey rentals which have insoles which can be removed.

Go to rental shop, find a skate which is same actual boot 'length' as your current skate, remove and compare insoles. If your foot overlaps rental insole similarly to your skate, then you can try to find a skate size in which the overlap on the insole is more 'even' all the way around. Then try skating a few laps and see if the pain is still there (forget skate performance, sharpness - it won;t be there...) .

Things like negative space around the arch are what molding will handle, and heel holddown is again consideration in skate design. Focus on getting even pressure around the foot edges.

Once you find the rental size that does that, you now know how to proceed in adjusting the skates you have or consider moving to.

[hockeyblood 11]

Thank you very much for all the great inputs here. I decided to experiment last night by swapping in my superfeet insoles... After 1 shift i almost have to crawl out. Pain was horrible...arches and sides, i almost wanted to chop both of my feet off and immediately swapped the stock footbed...pain is no longer intense but it was still there. I guess superfeet took out so much volume and my medium arch is not meant for it. I guess at this point I'm throwing the towel for the vapors and sell them and go back to trial and error..i guess id be needing more deeper and slightly wider boot...hopefully the rbk's fit the bill :(

[BrondonZA 0]

Its just about skating it in , it might take time but its the solution to my skate problems

[apex82 1]

Don't want to create a new thread but I'm hoping someone could help. I'm currently wearing a bauer apx 7.5EE, lenght and width is perfect, but when I step on the ice is a whole different story. Pain all over the sides of my foot, i feel like my foot is being squished to the sides when making cuts, stops..I think it is the apx being too stiff with almost zero give on the sides that is causing me issues. Will this be resolved by getting a lesser stiff skates? I'm thinking a mid level reebok of the same size and width can do the trick? Appreciate any input, by the way...I'm from asia so there is no option of getting fitted to a local hockey shop.

I am the same in the way that skates can feel great in store and when sitting. As soon as I hit the ice within 5 minutes its a whole different story. I have found that when at the store if I walk around a lot and also jump a bit it simulates the amount of pressure when skating and you can avoid some skates easily.

I have very similar symptoms with my Reebok 6k's in a EE width in regards to your pain on the sides. I almost quit playing it was so bad.I had my skates punched out on both side(arch and outer) I also dont tighten my bottom laces at all, only from the lace lock up. This allowed me to last an hour in manageable pain vs 10 minutes before being in excrutiating pain. I suggest getting them punched and then moving to a low end reebok if that doesnt help. I highly doubt a different insole will help if your in that much pain, as they did not for me. I purchased foot doctor, graf sidas, superfeet, ccm new custom insoles and even $400 on custom orothotics... nothing helped. I highly recommend the reebok brand for wide, flat feet.

I am now on a custom made pair of 20k Reeboks. The fit is great, but unfortunately the stiffness has brought up a whole other set of issues. I may have to go back to a softer boot just due to how flat my feet are. Skates are always an ongoing battle for me heh

[jonesy9020 77]

I've been in a lot of skates that require months of breaking in, and I've gotten through it with all the usual issues along the way from massive blood blisters, using felt pads in the skate, thick socks, second and third bakes, etc. This is a different beast. It's hard to describe. The bottom of my foot somehow simultaneously feels numb and in terrible pain after about 10 minutes on the ice.

[moreoutdoor 6]

Jonesy, it seems obvious to me that rethinking the 'fit' expectation is worth considering. Massive blood blisters, what is obviously neuropathy and, for many others, deformities such as haglund's (bauer bump) tendon inflammations are potential life-changing issues and not worth risking.

Much of the current 'fit' criteria come from the era when 'soft' boots needed to be fitted as tight as possible. Modern skates are for all intent, 'rigid', so once the keys areas are properly held for skate control, anything more doesn't add performance, just problems.

I read the posts about 'proper fit' means 1 to 2 mm of space in the length, and have to shake my head. What does a difference of some mm of length have to do with 'fit'?

I mean, there are so many other more important aspects of fit than whether one has 1 mm of space or 5 mm.

I'm saying that many, maybe most skaters can have skates which maximize their skate performance and still be comfortable and not disabling, from the start.

Fitting is not easy, but some of the old thinking needs to be thrown out, and covering the true aspects of performance/fit need focusing.

There are very few parts of the body as essential as the feet. They are the focal point of our lifelong mobility. If mobility is important, everything originates and comes back to them.

[jonesy9020 77]

outdoor, thanks for your concern. In any case, I just sold the boots that were giving me problems, so its moot at this point. They were 03-04 mission pure flys, so not exactly super rigid. I do like a snug fit on my skates because I like to stay on my toes and not have much sliding or wiggle room in the skate. That said, I don't use the guides as an absolute at all and I've never done the heel volume pencil test but rely more on feel. (I do use the 4-5 eyelet pencil test as its proven a pretty good indicator of volume for me).

The biggest problem I've had is that it seems for me that how a skate feels in store does not always translate to how it feels on the ice. Walking around a store does not simulate the force I put on my skates while skating, and for a guy with arch issues, that seems problematic. I've had skates that felt AWESOME in the store feel absolutely terrible on the ice. I've also had skates that just felt pretty good really be an effortless piece of equipment to use on the ice requiring almost no break in. It's really quite frustrating.

[Andoy 5]

I agree with moreoutdoor. Proper fitting skates should not take long to break in.

Another thing to add: at what time of the day are you guys getting fitted? I say this because I recommend to my peers that they should try get fitted for skates during the latter part of the day when their feet have naturally expanded due to constant use. It mimics the shape of your feet after a few minutes on the ice.

[YesLanges 127]

Are you tightening the last 3 eyelets with your ankle flexed under you or are you kind of straightening out your ankle? I've seen that problem disappear immediately when someone who had been straightening out too much just started bending the ankle more lacing up.

[syinx 139]

Hey Guys, I've had some similar experiences with regards to skate sizing and pain issues, so I thought I'd chip in.

A little background: I have experienced a multitude of pains, from shin splints, arch pains, numbing/soreness during a game, toe pains which led to calluses, and many, many more. I've worked alongside a couple orthopedic specialists to try and eliminate as much of it as possible, and I've figured out the little nuances that work for me, so hopefully they will for you too.

NB: I'm assuming that the foot pains are uncomfortable enough that you're willing to put a fair amount of effort and resources into fixing the issue, so bear with me here.

Disclaimer: Please note that while this worked for me and a few mates I play alongside, they're not objective truths, merely subjective observations of someone trying to convey them.

Skate Fitting

Sizing

So with regards to sizing, when it comes to basics you really need to make sure you are fit for the correct length and width in the skate. The best thing you can do, as others have mentioned on this forum is to be fit correctly by someone who has been doing it for a while and is experienced. Your foot shape, width, and volume should all be matched, and going into a shop with a pre-existing idea that "I have a wide foot, I should be in a Reebok skate" may not be the best thing. Naturally, it's difficult for everyone to find a reputable shop with an experienced staff, and most of the time we get young guys who're just trying to sell your products off the rack. But please do take the effort into finding someone who knows that they're doing. A Brannock tool will be a great starting point, but experienced intuition will really help here, too.

Arch

Our feet are different. Some of us have a more forward-shifted arch, others a more rear-shifted one. Some with flat feet, others with ridiculously high ones (I had an ex who was a ballet dancer and high arches were an issue). That arch is actually the cause of a great deal of pain if it doesn't fit properly with the skate. If you are going to use insoles, the two things that need to be taken into account is arch position and arch height. While Superfeet aren't really arch-support persay (they're marketed as heel stabilizing), the arch bump will support your arches and need to be fit properly. Have someone fit you into the correct insole sizing:

1. Superfeet - understand that you're not limited to the Yellow. I personally use a Superfeet Black to accommodate my low arch, and use a size bigger so that the arch support lines up correctly. I did this myself, but certain stores offer insole fitting according to your arch height/location, such as The Hockey Shop in Surrey, BC. Make sure you're being supported the correct amount and in the right location. Nothing worse than arch support pressing just in front of the balls of your heels. Ugh.
2. Custom SIDAS Footbeds - may not be the best thing for you. I have a mobile arch, and the thermoformable SIDAS/VH footbeds confirmed to the "flattening" of my foot rather than supported the arch that was unable to form during baking. Make sure you are fully aware of any foot issues you may have in case they're unique in that you might need more support than appears. I was more comfortable in Mako Skates than my VH Skates until I put in the Superfeet Blacks because the Makos "forced" a traditional arch into my foot, which was what I needed.
3. Skate sizing matters, too. If you're sort of a weird in-between with sizes, pick the one that feels better on your arch, as the arch positioning can vary by as much as half a centimeter.

Skate Flexibility

Your skate needs to have flex that corresponds to your level of play and size/weight. I'm a light Asian boy, and I enjoyed how flexible the Easton Mako skates were because they gave me just enough support with a huge range of motion, whereas bigger players sometimes complained they were not stiff enough. A skate too stiff for you will hinder you and could actually contribute to pain if it doesn't flex where you need it to, whereas something too soft won't support you. Evaluate your build and your skating needs. It might even save you some money!

Personal Modifications

Modify your equipment, test different accessories, dress differently! The little things go a long way!

1. Lacing - do what it takes to make things comfortable! One big thing is lacing. It's simple but is an effective way to relieve discomfort. Try a different lacing pattern (outside-in vs inside-out) for volume changing, or even try waxed laces to allow different tightness across the foot. Those with high arches can benefit from this heavily and people often tie their skates way too tight, causing a compression of the arch, reducing bloodflow and causing that numbing, throbbing pain in your arches and the sole of your feet. Tie just snug enough, and crank on the last 2 eyelets for ankle support. Whether you drop the last eyelet is up to you, but forward flex can help you put pressure on the skate where it should be in your stride and reduce fatigue via balance and control.
2. Comfort - Buy bunga pads or wear special socks to increase your comfort and heel lock. If you need to make your own "comfort edge", elite hockey ankle gel pads are great! Figure out what hurts and what you can tweak to fix it!
3. Profile/Sharpening - Figure out whether changing the balance point on your skates help your comfort and balance. Remember your legs work as a whole. Something that relieves knee stress can relieve stress in the rest of the leg and foot.

All in all, remember that if you can't figure out what you like and what works for your foot and mechanics, you're not getting the most out of your skates - especially custom ones. I would have never dared to order Custom VH Skates unless I knew what my problems were and how they needed to be accommodated.

Off-Ice

Exercises

I spoke to a fair few orthopedic specialists when working through my pains (that's how I ended up being diagnosed with a mobile arch as well as learning my way around foot shape/size/morphism) and one reason why many people get shin splints, arch pains and other soreness in the foot is due to a lack of stretching. The reason why a foot hurts on the bottom and sides when an arch is compressed is due to a lack of bloodflow and pressure on the Posterior Tibial Tendon, which extends from the balls of our feet, through the arch (I think it's what makes up the arch) all the way up our calf. If you can "loosen" the tendon up as well as strengthen and stretch it, it'll be able to conform to your skates and skating better and reduce pain. I've included a link to good exercises for this particular tendon below. Simple replace the idea of the "injured" tendon with both feet (i.e. do the exercise with both legs, not just your problem foot).

Posterior Tibial Tendon Exercises

That's all I got for now. Hope this helps anyone in need!

Cheers,

Jeremy.