Putting larger holders on skates (?)

[bogeywhite 3]

I've heard for a while now that many NHL players install larger holders on their skates than standard "retail" size holders. I've been looking through the inter-webs for a little while and haven't been able to come up with an explanation as to why that is. Other than the obvious explanation of "they're pro's, they do what they want" does anyone know of any benefits of doing this? Be it from personal experience or second hand, measured results or not i'm all ears.

Thanks!

On a side note, the only reason I ask is because i'm thinking of swapping out my current holders.

[Sprungdownunder 18]

I have noticed that my size 9 mlx which is the same size as my size 9 tack skates run holders that are bigger then the ccm pro lite 287 which ccm use for there 9.5- 10 size boot.

Someone else might have a better answer but I think they do it for better speed & balance at the slight cost of agility, it would be a personal preference based on your style of game.

[All Flash 49]

More blade on the ice with the same settings/profile.

First thing I do to all my new skates.

[Mimizk 114]

I don' know actually numbers how many NHL players have been attaching longer holder and steels on their skates.
These are 2 extreme example though the larger holder and steel can reach somewhere genuine holder couldn't.

Of course maybe there are the other reasons for several players, but I think now we can incarnate one's wish or thinking about skating with genuine size holder and contouring adjustment.

I think that the half or more of current large holder tuning is just reminder of the age that contouring system and grinders didn't prevail in the public.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Mimizk

[Chadd 916]

More blade on the ice with the same settings/profile.

a 9' radius has the same amount of steel on the ice, regardless of the size. The only thing is does is make it easier to maintain balance if you get your shoulders farther forward of your center of gravity.

[All Flash 49]

a 9' radius has the same amount of steel on the ice, regardless of the size. The only thing is does is make it easier to maintain balance if you get your shoulders farther forward of your center of gravity.

Hhhmmm ......... that makes more sense. I was under the impression that it was more blade because of the bigger size steel.

[markush 12]

I think it's because of a longer, more powerfull stride

[Chadd 916]

I think it's because of a longer, more powerfull stride

It doesn't make your legs any longer or stronger

[flip12 699]

It doesn't make your legs any longer or stronger

You're right, but at the same time it can allow the strength that is in your legs more room to operate. Personally, that's what I feel like on upsized steel, there's more room so I feel more balanced and I'm much quicker, both in long, full strides as well as in turning, where I can pick a portion of the blade to balance on and convert into a smaller effective radius than I can on shorter, normal length steel.

[markush 12]

It doesn't make your legs any longer or stronger

That's for sure :-D

Though I am sure you realized why speed skater use larger runners on their skates.

[chippa13 1844]

They also have a much longer radius put on them and the blades are sprung to increase blade contact with the ice throughout the stride. They aren't too worried about agility.

[Chadd 916]

That's for sure :-D

Though I am sure you realized why speed skater use larger runners on their skates.

Completely different technique with speed skaters as well. The difference in going up a size on hockey steel is almost entirely psychological. Most skaters would achieve the same results with improved technique but a lot of people want shortcuts.

[markush 12]

Completely different technique with speed skaters as well. The difference in going up a size on hockey steel is almost entirely psychological. Most skaters would achieve the same results with improved technique but a lot of people want shortcuts.

That's true.

[jimmy 194]

Three words, "Don't do it" No measurable improvements. Funny I don't see the LS2.1 runners on any bauer skates anymore. The longer runner was nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

[flip12 699]

How do runner lengths compare from holder to holder? I thought I read on here that Cobra holders have longer steel for their base length than Tuuk, etc.

[bunnyman666 445]

How do runner lengths compare from holder to holder? I thought I read on here that Cobra holders have longer steel for their base length than Tuuk, etc.

Funny thing you ask. The E Pro from CCM/Reebok had long blades for a short base, but the SB +4.0 has runners that are shorter inside the base. E Pro uses a 271 for a size 7,5 and the SB uses the next size down for a size 7,5. I went with the 271, and the holder moved fairly forward on my Reebok 16K boot from where the E Pro was, and I have holes from the stock holder exposed. That's okay, that allows more drainage, I suppose.

[Chadd 916]

Funny thing you ask. The E Pro from CCM/Reebok had long blades for a short base, but the SB +4.0 has runners that are shorter inside the base. E Pro uses a 271 for a size 7,5 and the SB uses the next size down for a size 7,5. I went with the 271, and the holder moved fairly forward on my Reebok 16K boot from where the E Pro was, and I have holes from the stock holder exposed. That's okay, that allows more drainage, I suppose.

It cal also allow the moisture to rot the sole. Most shops I have seen use glue or epoxy to fill old holes.

[bunnyman666 445]

While I use a cold blow dryer to dry out my skates, I will fill the exposed holes. My skates do have other drainage holes, however.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Three words, "Don't do it" No measurable improvements. Funny I don't see the LS2.1 runners on any bauer skates anymore. The longer runner was nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

Going to have to disagree with you on this.

Mainly for the women in hockey (or guys with smaller feet such as my son). There was a very large improvement with both ladies on my team last year. They were both decent skaters. But one had gone from a 6.5 to a 5.5 and the other from a 5.5 to a 4 in skate size. Both were used to the longer blade on the boots they were in although they didnt fit. After finding the best holder size for both they both maintained the speed they had with the old skates but were much more maneuverable. (Both Players were on Team Canada Captain and Asst)

In my son's case it just made him much more sturdy at 4'10" and 100lbs at 10 years old in a 1.5 skate and regular 212 holder. When he went to a 2.5 I went to a 230 and he doesn't fall near as much with a stock radius on step. The one I did the largest change was for a US National Team player that was 5'0" and 140 wearing a 1.5 skate. She was ranked 4th fastet on the team at the time and US beat Canada that year in the Worlds. She wore a 230 Tuuk old style on the 1.5. My experiences.

[flip12 699]

Going to have to disagree with you on this.

Mainly for the women in hockey (or guys with smaller feet such as my son). There was a very large improvement with both ladies on my team last year. They were both decent skaters. But one had gone from a 6.5 to a 5.5 and the other from a 5.5 to a 4 in skate size. Both were used to the longer blade on the boots they were in although they didnt fit. After finding the best holder size for both they both maintained the speed they had with the old skates but were much more maneuverable. (Both Players were on Team Canada Captain and Asst)

In my son's case it just made him much more sturdy at 4'10" and 100lbs at 10 years old in a 1.5 skate and regular 212 holder. When he went to a 2.5 I went to a 230 and he doesn't fall near as much with a stock radius on step. The one I did the largest change was for a US National Team player that was 5'0" and 140 wearing a 1.5 skate. She was ranked 4th fastet on the team at the time and US beat Canada that year in the Worlds. She wore a 230 Tuuk old style on the 1.5. My experiences.

My experience is similar--used to skate in an 11 Graf, now I'm down to 10 because I know how skates should fit better, how much the boot will stretch and also my Haglund's deformities are half the thickness they used to be. But I love the stability and quickness I had on that 296 Cobra. I played roller hockey before ice so maybe that's why more steel feels good to me all around, but it does nonetheless.

Three words, "Don't do it" No measurable improvements. Funny I don't see the LS2.1 runners on any bauer skates anymore. The longer runner was nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

I just have a hard time thinking of geometry as a marketing gimmick, especially when it involves more mass to be carried by the user. Granted, this obsession with light skates has gotten even hotter since the one90, but there were other things one could then call gimmicky about the skate just because Bauer's users didn't support it, the shorter cut boot on the one90 for instance. I would also resist calling that gimmicky, again for geometric reasons and on the basis of my experience.

[jonesy9020 77]

Figured this thread was on a similar topic so I'd jump on. Buying some boots with the holders removed. They're older skates originally with 287 mm holders on them. I am aware that I will probably have to redrill holes to put on new holders, but I'm curious if I could put a 280 mm holder on the boot. Main reason is I have a pair of Pitch3 lying around and would like to avoid the extra cost of going out and paying for new holders, steel, and installation.

If I can put the 280s on, should I expect to feel any different while skating? Thanks in advance for your input.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

It will be different but that is a personal decision. With Profiling and pitch adjustments (using the pitch holder as well as profiling) you maybe able to get it to feel similar.

I only go with longer holders when there is a balance issue. I wont just do it for the fun of it. I know you can go with more blade on a shorter holder but all my clients that have balance issues that I change the holders for prefer the longer holder shorter profile.

Example: Had a player get new skates at school at RMU. they are a grinder type player and need the balance to battle. The old 5.5 skates they had had 254 stock holders. The new skates had a 246 but looked good on the skates. However no matter what they did profile wise they didn't feel right and the player hasn't used them at all in games. They came home for the break switched to the 254 and it was like a light switch and they feel perfectly fine. It is all about making the player perform the best with the best amount of blade for that player!

[caseyjones 26]

I need to switch my 254 holder on my graf’s to a 263.  Bought a pair a half size smaller and the smaller holder completely through me off balance.  

I’m a rare case where I’m actually replacing a cobra holder with a cobra holder. My question is can a larger cobra holder be mounted with rivets?  Tuuks and other holders are made for rivets but will mounting the cobra with rivets work?

[chippa13 1844]

No reason it shouldn't.

[asgoodasdead 74]

i skated on 288 holders for 17 years and recently got new skates with 280 holders(sharpened the exact same way) and there was definitely a noticeable difference/adjustment