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incubus4fun

Bauer LS3 or LS4 Runners

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Experimentation with a 'heel lift' plate is the key when things change. Especially after 3 or 4 years. Especially as a young player grows. Things change......boots, holders, steels, anatomy, stance, skating stride changes with age, strength and coaching, etc. Consider using temporary wedges under the insole that he uses in his skate.......his stock insole, or his custom insole (Superfeet for example). Fashion a suitable wedge out of plastic stock or wooden shims.....like the ones used to shim door frames, etc. Double side tape a WELL fitting (width-wise) shim to his insoles or skate boot. That process is simple and effective. FEEDBACK is important. Remember, this is temporary, for quick comparison of 'forward lean'.......'forward pitch'. Don't 'boil the ocean' with lifts and wedges, pronation....supronation wedges, etc. We have a local 'Skate Guru' in town that makes a bundle of money 'selling' customers on this stuff. His shop installs leather, denturist plastic modifications to the inside heel of MOST every skate he sells. Most of this is pure conjecture. He thinks he is a Podiatrist.

As for rivets loosening in a heel tower when you add a shim, or any time. ALWAYS use LARGE DIAMETER copper rivets on the rear two holes. Also can use coppers on the front holes of that rear tower. A properly installed rivet (correct length and installation process) should stay tight on a young player's skates. A 220 pound, skater might need rivets tightened and replaced periodically.

Remember to hang skates to dry with insoles removed. Steel rivets will rust out in short order if the skates are not dried out with insoles removed.

Edited by Pappa

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Recently switched over from LS2 holders with Step Steel Black to LS Edge holders with LS4 runners. First impression... I'm not a fan of the LS4 runners yet. I normally go with a 5/8ths" ROH (been using this cut for about a year and half now) but recently had to switch to a ½" ROH cut. When using a 5/8ths" ROH, I felt that the LS4 offered some grip during quick, hard strides on a soft sheet of ice and very little grip during quick, hard strides on a hard sheet of ice. Felt like I was on a slip n' slide! If this steel is supposed to be as hard as Step Steel, I think it falls a little short in "edge sharpness quality" because it felt like I was skating on a 3/4ths" ROH cut.

I remember experimenting with a 7/16ths" ROH and ½" ROH on the Step Steel and found it just a wee bit too sharp for my liking, so I'm hoping moving to a ½" ROH on the LS4 runners will feel more like a 5/8ths ROH.

I was planning on switching to a 90/75 FBV, but seems like this steel may not be the best steel to start experimenting with...

Anyway, it's still way too early for me to tell if the "edge retention" on the LS4 runners will last as long as the Step Steel runners, which was about a month when skating 4-5 days a week for 2-3 hours at a time. But, I will definitely update in about a month or so.

Edited by mc88

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I'm a Step Steel fan. I couldn't feel the difference of skating ability when I switched from LS2 steel to Step's runner. But chip in a blade was clearly decreased. So I've been understood as that Step is better at just a quality of mixed made metal.

I think I want to use Step runner with Lightspeed holder. But there is not the runner. If LS4 has same quality as Step, it's better thing for me.

I've been using my boots with settings, 3mm heel shim, 3mm set back radius center, +2 pitch and 13' radius.

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The cxn had the same rivet pattern as the ls2 and the ls edge holder so you could swap the holders out for the cxn without re-drilling.

I guess my son wants to go back to the Supreme skate this year from being in Makos the past two seasons. He has needed a heel shim in the Bauer skate before but I am thinking about trying the CXN holder instead of the shim. Are you positive that the CXN holder is compatible with the Supreme boot?

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Im now thinking that there is STILL a problem with Bauer's LS4 steel. Last week I profiled a set of steel for the NHL's Aaron Ekblad. He skated for a total of 4 hours on them (last Tuesday and Wednesday). On Wednesday, a steel SNAPPED in two in the exact center of the blade. He put the LS3 steel back in and skated the remainder of the week with those steels.

He gets another new pair of skates to break in next week. Wondering what steel will be delivered in those?


Im now thinking that there is STILL a problem with Bauer's LS4 steel. Last week I profiled a set of steel for the NHL's Aaron Ekblad. He skated for a total of 4 hours on them (last Tuesday and Wednesday). On Wednesday, a steel SNAPPED in two in the exact center of the blade. He put the LS3 steel back in and skated the remainder of the week with those steels.

He gets another new pair of skates to break in next week. Wondering what steel will be delivered in those?

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Try baking the steel in a 450ºF oven for 1/2 hour. It will realign the steel crystals, should be more springy, less brittle, yet still hold a decent edge.

(Annealing at 450-500ºF is a general temperature for tool steels---some hotter, few cooler)

Might not be worth the downtime risk for an NHL player, but worth experimenting on a beer-leaguer.

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Im now thinking that there is STILL a problem with Bauer's LS4 steel. Last week I profiled a set of steel for the NHL's Aaron Ekblad. He skated for a total of 4 hours on them (last Tuesday and Wednesday). On Wednesday, a steel SNAPPED in two in the exact center of the blade. He put the LS3 steel back in and skated the remainder of the week with those steels.

I've switched my steel from Tuuk to Step by the same reason.

I've heard LS4 has been used new mixture steel. Tuuk and Bauer don't license of their patent about quick changeable Lightspeed holder and edge. So Step can't make replacement blade of LS holder.

Currently I have a interest for quick change blades. So I had thought it's good if LS4 runner had almost same ability as Step steel. If so, I wanted to choose LS holder+LS4 combination. But my local shop said similar thing too as Pappa wrote. I could hear back up story here.

So now I'm thinking to go to Quikblade+Step combo.

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There are sets of BlackEdge coated LS3 edge steel on ebay for around $100, which is the cost of LS4. They might be a good substitute until Bauer gets this sorted out.

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Bauer has begun to ship out replacement sets for skates - we received them last week and we are putting them in the skate boxes, so in case your original set breaks, you have the direct replacement. If they don't break, you have two sets.

The vast majority of skates that we have sold in my store haven't come back because of steel breakage.

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J.R., You posted that your Troy, Michigan store is receiving 'replacement' sets of steel and that you are including those in boxes of skates. I'm curious to know how Bauer is 'marking' those replacement steels. Are they grinding another 'notch' in the top of the 'NEW' steels?

How would a person be able to distinguish the 'NEW' replacements from the older stock?

I am in Windsor, Ontario. Been doing skates since 1967. Would like to send my Detroit area customers to your store for steels. I sharpen, profile and repair skates. I do not sell steels or holders.

Edited by Pappa

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J.R., You posted that your Troy, Michigan store is receiving 'replacement' sets of steel and that you are including those in boxes of skates. I'm curious to know how Bauer is 'marking' those replacement steels. Are they grinding another 'notch' in the top of the 'NEW' steels?

How would a person be able to distinguish the 'NEW' replacements from the older stock?

I am in Windsor, Ontario. Been doing skates since 1967. Would like to send my Detroit area customers to your store for steels. I sharpen, profile and repair skates. I do not sell steels or holders.

You should be able to send them to any Bauer Retailer. Pro Hockey Life ?

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Thanks. Realize that any Bauer retailer can supply this steel. I was refering to my American customers (about 3 dozen) who live and shop in Detroit and it's suburbs. Until recently, I was sending them to another well known hockey retailer in Detroit for holders, steels and insoles, etc. I supported that long time retailer for years. I have stopped patronizing this particular retailer for reasons that I will keep to myself.

Same as here, in Windsor. I very recently made a decision to not support this retailer any longer. I now suggest that my customers shop at a couple of other Windsor stores for replacement parts. They buy them, I install and tweak them.

I want to know how (or if) Bauer is 'marking' the replacement batch of LS4 steels. I suspect that they are NOT 'notching' the steel any differently than the LS4 steel that I worked on last week. That set of LS4 steel had two (2) 'notches' near the toe of the steel and one(1) notch at the heel of the steel. LS 3 steel has one (1) notch at the heel of the steel.

I'm expecting more of the local NHL, Jr. A, B. and college players and some referees to show up SOON with their new skates for profiling. They skate locally and are receiving skates this week. I want to see if their skates are coming with a NEW batch of LS4 steel. Possibly, the steel that Ekblad received last week, for his current 1X skates was NOT new steel. He received his new pair of skates Monday and I will see those skates very soon. I had not worked on LS4 steel until last week and this old bird enjoys continuing education. Thanks again, your reply was appreciated.

Edited by Pappa

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Thanks. Realize that any Bauer retailer can supply this steel. I was refering to my American customers (about 3 dozen) who live and shop in Detroit and it's suburbs. Until recently, I was sending them to another well known hockey retailer in Detroit for holders, steels and insoles, etc. I supported that long time retailer for years. I have stopped patronizing this particular retailer for reasons that I will keep to myself.

Same as here, in Windsor. I very recently made a decision to not support this retailer any longer. I now suggest that my customers shop at a couple of other Windsor stores for replacement parts. They buy them, I install and tweak them.

I want to know how (or if) Bauer is 'marking' the replacement batch of LS4 steels. I suspect that they are NOT 'notching' the steel any differently than the LS4 steel that I worked on last week. That set of LS4 steel had two (2) 'notches' near the toe of the steel and one(1) notch at the heel of the steel. LS 3 steel has one (1) notch at the heel of the steel.

I'm expecting more of the local NHL, Jr. A, B. and college players and some referees to show up SOON with their new skates for profiling. They skate locally and are receiving skates this week. I want to see if their skates are coming with a NEW batch of LS4 steel. Possibly, the steel that Ekblad received last week, for his current 1X skates was NOT new steel. He received his new pair of skates Monday and I will see those skates very soon. I had not worked on LS4 steel until last week and this old bird enjoys continuing education. Thanks again, your reply was appreciated.

The new LS4 I got had no notch in the heel. And so far has not returned broken. My understanding from the Laurier Womens EQM that works at PHL (From the Bauer Paper work she sent out) is its only the notch steel in the rear that was the issue.

I know I had heard the test on Rockwell (posted before) was between 61 and 64 way to hard.

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J.R., You posted that your Troy, Michigan store is receiving 'replacement' sets of steel and that you are including those in boxes of skates. I'm curious to know how Bauer is 'marking' those replacement steels. Are they grinding another 'notch' in the top of the 'NEW' steels?

How would a person be able to distinguish the 'NEW' replacements from the older stock?

I am in Windsor, Ontario. Been doing skates since 1967. Would like to send my Detroit area customers to your store for steels. I sharpen, profile and repair skates. I do not sell steels or holders.

The steel isn't being sold aftermarket yet. Bauer is taking care of the ones that may be on skates.

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I just now talked to Customer Service at Bauer Canada at 4:00pm Told them the story about this particular steel breaking and asked about where they were at with replacement steel.....notches to VERIFY replacement steel, etc. The service rep is SUPPOSED to get back to me by phone with specific answers to my questions about 'notches' on the newest version of this LS4 replacement steel. The person I talked to at Bauer's customer service said that the NEWEST steel should have "No Notches". I reiterated that the LS4 steel I was concerned about had three (3) notches.........two at the toe end and one (1) at the heel end of the top of the steel runner. They put me on hold, came back and said that the head honcho that could tell me EXACTLY what to look for was out of his office. They have my phone and email. Hopefully, they get back to me SOON. I told them that I didn't want to see Aaron Ekblad get injured on BAD steel. That I felt a responsibility to make sure the steel I profile/sharpen is the latest and greatest.

........They just now called me back from Mississauga, Ontario at 4:20pm. They verified that the NEWEST VERSION will not have that one (1) 'notch' above the LS4 logo printed on the heel of the steel. It will however, have those two (2) notches at the toe end of the steel. They expect to have replacement steel in ALL of their Canadian retail customer's stores within 4 -5 weeks.

Edited by Pappa

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Also, just found out that the equipment manager for the Florida Panthers sent Aaron some steels with FLAT BOTTOM VEE grinds to try out on his new skates. I'm NOT a big fan of FBV, so I'm anxious to see how this turns out. Also want to see if THESE skates are missing that NOTCH on the heel end of these steels.

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Also, just found out that the equipment manager for the Florida Panthers sent Aaron some steels with FLAT BOTTOM VEE grinds to try out on his new skates. I'm NOT a big fan of FBV, so I'm anxious to see how this turns out. Also want to see if THESE skates are missing that NOTCH on the heel end of these steels.

Well Taveres Strome Gagner Clarkson and many more use FBV If done properly on skates that have nice sraight steel they all say they like it far better than a regular hollow. Strome "I couldn't wait and had a 5/8ths done last week so glad to get the FBV back on them"

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There are several reasons that I am not a 'fan' of either Blackstone's FBV, or Blademaster's BFD product. Both of these companies produce wonderful skate sharpening machines and accessories for these machines. However, the 'process' of Blackstone FBV (BFD.....Blademaster) involves dressing the skate sharpening wheel with a 'form dresser'. Form dressing wheels can be problematic. Firstly, a form dressing wheel CANNOT 'dress' a cutting wheel as well as a single point diamond stylus. Secondly, a form dressing wheel begins to deteriorate quickly with use. Both the cutting surface and internal bearings of form dressing wheels begin to wear from the beginning of use, until the operator 'decides' to replace the dresser. With Blackstone FBV dressers costing about $70.00 and Blademaster BFD dressers costing about $125.00 operators are reluctant to throw used dressers in the garbage or recycle bin. An operator must be equipt with a form dresser for every 'grind' that is offered. That means that the RETAIL establishment or hockey club must buy at least 6 dressers.......even MORE for satisfying some goaltenders or figure skaters.

Team equiptment managers using FBV must obtain a separate dresser for EACH player's different grinds as well. For example, the college team that I do skate work for has over 20 players on the roster. They want about 5 different ROH's on their skates......plus some goaltender's steels need their own dressers (thicker steel). Most players on this team are at 5/8" ROH, but we sometimes change this up or down for different ice conditions.

When FBV (BFD) began hitting the sports stores and NHL team rooms (about 5 years ago) it was going to REVOLUTIONIZE the traditional ROH grind. Despite all the PROMOTIONAL 'hype' that was used on hockey blogs, U-tube videos, newscasts, photos and glowing stories from some NHL players, equipment managers, etc. Despite millions of dollars in marketing, media hype, dozens of NHL teams (and some colleges), even 'Skating Labs' being 'given' $20,000 Blackstone machines, it did not make traditional sharpening obsolete.

The 'honed' finish that a competent skate tech can put on a blade using a diamond stylus is VERY smooth........it CAN and should be polished like a mirror! A form dresser CANNOT do this. I have used both the Blackstone FBV and Blademaster BFD and ROH form dressers. The hockey store that I did skate work at had BOTH machines.

I am NOT convinced that FBV is a BETTER product than the traditional ROH process that I perform on skates. For comparison, I have had my own skates sharpened with FBV.......here in Windsor by a dude that is 'world famous' and even up in Whitby, Ontario (PRO CUT) by the owner who was considered THE BEST at FBV. The ONLY difference I noticed was that in BOTH instances my edges did NOT last as long as my ROH hollow. Furthermore, once the edges started to 'go south' and slip.......they really went souith quickly.

For this reason, I suggest that TRAVEL hockey players.......those AAA, AA, kids that travel out of town every other weekend for several league games at tournaments do not use FBV. After a game or two, the edges can 'go south', then you have to find a person to do FBV out of town.

My opinion.

Now, with quick change blades, this isn't as much as an issue with SOME travel players.......as they carry an extra set of blades. So, unless your team has an equipment manager and a machine at your disposal 'on the road' FBV might not be your best choice.

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There are several reasons that I am not a 'fan' of either Blackstone's FBV, or Blademaster's BFD product. Both of these companies produce wonderful skate sharpening machines and accessories for these machines. However, the 'process' of Blackstone FBV (BFD.....Blademaster) involves dressing the skate sharpening wheel with a 'form dresser'. Form dressing wheels can be problematic. Firstly, a form dressing wheel CANNOT 'dress' a cutting wheel as well as a single point diamond stylus. Secondly, a form dressing wheel begins to deteriorate quickly with use. Both the cutting surface and internal bearings of form dressing wheels begin to wear from the beginning of use, until the operator 'decides' to replace the dresser. With Blackstone FBV dressers costing about $70.00 and Blademaster BFD dressers costing about $125.00 operators are reluctant to throw used dressers in the garbage or recycle bin. An operator must be equipt with a form dresser for every 'grind' that is offered. That means that the RETAIL establishment or hockey club must buy at least 6 dressers.......even MORE for satisfying some goaltenders or figure skaters.

Team equiptment managers using FBV must obtain a separate dresser for EACH player's different grinds as well. For example, the college team that I do skate work for has over 20 players on the roster. They want about 5 different ROH's on their skates......plus some goaltender's steels need their own dressers (thicker steel). Most players on this team are at 5/8" ROH, but we sometimes change this up or down for different ice conditions.

When FBV (BFD) began hitting the sports stores and NHL team rooms (about 5 years ago) it was going to REVOLUTIONIZE the traditional ROH grind. Despite all the PROMOTIONAL 'hype' that was used on hockey blogs, U-tube videos, newscasts, photos and glowing stories from some NHL players, equipment managers, etc. Despite millions of dollars in marketing, media hype, dozens of NHL teams (and some colleges), even 'Skating Labs' being 'given' $20,000 Blackstone machines, it did not make traditional sharpening obsolete.

The 'honed' finish that a competent skate tech can put on a blade using a diamond stylus is VERY smooth........it CAN and should be polished like a mirror! A form dresser CANNOT do this. I have used both the Blackstone FBV and Blademaster BFD and ROH form dressers. The hockey store that I did skate work at had BOTH machines.

I am NOT convinced that FBV is a BETTER product than the traditional ROH process that I perform on skates. For comparison, I have had my own skates sharpened with FBV.......here in Windsor by a dude that is 'world famous' and even up in Whitby, Ontario (PRO CUT) by the owner who was considered THE BEST at FBV. The ONLY difference I noticed was that in BOTH instances my edges did NOT last as long as my ROH hollow. Furthermore, once the edges started to 'go south' and slip.......they really went souith quickly.

For this reason, I suggest that TRAVEL hockey players.......those AAA, AA, kids that travel out of town every other weekend for several league games at tournaments do not use FBV. After a game or two, the edges can 'go south', then you have to find a person to do FBV out of town.

My opinion.

Now, with quick change blades, this isn't as much as an issue with SOME travel players.......as they carry an extra set of blades. So, unless your team has an equipment manager and a machine at your disposal 'on the road' FBV might not be your best choice.

Well I can understand your thoughts on FBV but being the one that brought it to Forzani I can tell you this.

1. A form dressing wheel can be used for much longer than a traditional diamond. It does not when used properly go away as fast you you say above.

2. It doesnt last as long and the edges go south quickly (At present I have one AAA player in particular that gets on average 17 hours out of one sharpening)

This is done by maintaining the blade properly. The person that did your sharpening IMO did probably not cross cut them first before putting on a hollow that would actually suit your skating style and just put what he thought would be best and possibly disregarding things you may have said.

Personally I have had people say they prefer the ROH but I have never had someone say what happened to you when getting it done.

and were actually going into year 8 for me with FBV.

I have the portable used at the first Modsquad event that had the FBV at it.

While I agree with you a good single point can clean the stone better the issue is for me with so much garbage steel out there I just do not have time to re-dress the wheel in between skates on a pair. With the spinner it just makes my sharpening faster with maintaining the same quality.

As for the finish I can get the same mirror finish on either machine.

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I agree with the opinion of Pappa that FBV's finished surface of bottom edge is not better than ROH at smoothness. This was said the same thing by a president of Maximum Edge.

But I like flat bottom sharpening. Because, I can choose its depth and angle separately. In my area, the ice condition is not better and it is certainly different at each places. I'm not tall so my weight is also not heavy. I couldn't be satisfied with ROH but there is a possibility that I can get suitable sharpening for each situation in FBV.

Although finished edge bottom after sharpening by FBV is not good... I can think some solutions for the issue, for example to use more fine grinding stones or buffer. To use LS holder and runner and to sharpen the edges frequently is one of those.

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Well I can understand your thoughts on FBV but being the one that brought it to Forzani I can tell you this.

1. A form dressing wheel can be used for much longer than a traditional diamond. It does not when used properly go away as fast you you say above.

2. It doesnt last as long and the edges go south quickly (At present I have one AAA player in particular that gets on average 17 hours out of one sharpening)

This is done by maintaining the blade properly. The person that did your sharpening IMO did probably not cross cut them first before putting on a hollow that would actually suit your skating style and just put what he thought would be best and possibly disregarding things you may have said.

Personally I have had people say they prefer the ROH but I have never had someone say what happened to you when getting it done.

and were actually going into year 8 for me with FBV.

I have the portable used at the first Modsquad event that had the FBV at it.

While I agree with you a good single point can clean the stone better the issue is for me with so much garbage steel out there I just do not have time to re-dress the wheel in between skates on a pair. With the spinner it just makes my sharpening faster with maintaining the same quality.

As for the finish I can get the same mirror finish on either machine.

We switched to the Blackstone spinner system last year without a cross grinder and have multiple users on it. Before that, I only worked with a SPD system and used to do a couple of witness marks at each end of the blade and centre the skate holder to my kids level edges but now with the spinner system I can't do that because it doesn't give you true witness marks. I also find the Blackstone holder isn't as consistent as the BladeMaster holder when moving the holder up or down to centre the blade. I do believe the spinner does have some inconsistency but I can get a smooth finish with a bit more work at it.

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i just see a review on hockeymonkey.

''This ls4 is honestly garbage. Dont waste any money on it, ive seen about 12 pairs crack. It doesnt look like solid steel on the inside but rather some odd chalky component which obviously sacrifices the durability of the steel. Buy ls3 instead or even ls2'' http://www.hockeymonkey.com/bauer-hockey-runner-ls4-edge-pr-sr.html#reviewsTab

uhm...

Edited by ryoichi

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