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Utterkaos94

Do I need stiffer skates?

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So, there's a couple of questions in here, but I figured it'd be better to not make multiple topics. I have severely flat feet and when I tried on skates to buy my first pair, the Nexus line seemed to fit the best so that's what I got. Fast forward two years later and now it seems like my Nexus 5000's are breaking down. Because I pronate so much, it's caused the boot to buckle in on itself on both outside walls. Over the past year, I skated about 3-4 times a week. I'm 6'4" and weigh about 210, so I'm thinking I need to increase the stiffness of the skates. I don't know how stiff different levels of skates can get because I've never been able to try on a pair in store since I wear size 12s. I'm open to try other brands, but the Makos I think will be too narrow for my feet, and the CCMs I don't know if any of the lines fit the same as the Nexus. Do the new Ultra Tacks line fit similar to the Nexus? The fit profile says they're contoured, which would make me think they fit more like Supreme, but the measurements are the largest out of all three CCM lines. If I have to go with the Nexus, I think I would need something with Curv composite. I don't know how the stiff the pro level tech mesh is, but I'm assuming it would be similar to what I have.

  image.jpg     image.jpg      image.jpg     image.jpg

-Based on the pictures and other info, do you think I need a higher end skate?

-Do any other major skate lines fit similar to the Nexus?

 

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I wouldn't classify the Nexus 5000 as being a stiff boot to begin with.  Other thing to consider is fit as I've seen some skates crease like that when the size is too big or have too much volume.  Are you sure you're really a size 12 skate?

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I'm pretty sure. My toes brush up against the front cap when I'm standing up. The Nexus might have too much volume, but they were the only ones that fit my fit without squeezing my arch. The outline of my foot is like the red piece below.

d90d62e3090f060b64d9dd3985d4b778.jpg

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Yeah, sounds like lengthwise you have a good fit.  With your size and how often you skate you would probably be better off with a CURV boot if staying with a Bauer boot.  If Nexus is a better fit than Supreme take a look at the N9000.  Can't speak for the fit of the new Tacks line, however the previous line would be CCM's offering closest to a Nexus fit.

With your arch being so low have you tried an alternative footbed for better support?  I have low arches and have benefited from custom SuperFeet in the past and now the Bauer SpeedPlate.  The newer carbon SuperFeet model is another option to look at.

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An arch support does help a little to give your feet the correct shape in the boot but they don't stop the pronation. If you do nothing else (like shims, wedges, holder movement, custom orthotics etc) the one thing you need to pay close attention to is your heel fit. This has to be tight with absolutely no negative space under the ankle area and around the heel. If you have any negative space here your foot will roll inwards in the boot leading to foot pain and the boot breaking down prematurely (as you have found out). Buy the narrowest boot you can fit your heel into, make sure it is heat moldable and then get the arch area punched / stretched to fit. If necessary clamp the areas around the heel and under the ankle for a better fit. Don't buy a boot just because it has arch space.

A stiffer boot does help but it also has issues. A stiff boot has no give in it so as your foot rolls in the boot it will come up against a very stiff boot wall, no movement in the boot means the foot absorbs all the pressure and this can lead to very painful spots (typically inside ankle bone, inside top of the ankle, inner part of big toe and ball of foot, outside of the little toe and outside mid foot). Getting these spots punched out or using gel pads / booties / other protective items will help. Bottom line for your long term foot health and skate durability, you need to stop the pronation and this generally will take more work than a stiff boot and an arch support.

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If you like the Nexus style fit then I'd try on a higher end model in the old Tacks line that mojo recommended. I know in Canada some places are clearing out the former top of the line model for $399 (orig. $799).

I would not rule out the Mako line - I have a narrow heel and super wide forefoot and an a EE Mako fits very well after baking. It's wide enough in the forefoot and still locks my heel in. I had a really hard time getting my foot in before baking and felt pressure in the forefoot, however; all that pressure was alleviated after a bake and now they fit like stiff high top running shoes. I have an average arch, but other people with flat arches in the Mako thread have managed to heat and press on this area to alleviate arch pressure.

I did try on the old line of Nexus skates and it was comfortable in the forefoot, but way too wide in the heel and gave me heel lift. Vet88 is probably on to something when he suggests your heel may be moving in the Nexus skates.

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Heating the area and squeezing it in helps more in boots that actually change shape with heat molding like the Mako and VH skates. With most other models heat molding doesn't actually change the shape of the boot and it's just done to help with break in. If your heel is moving in the Nexus then moving on to another skate model that locks your skates in well to begin with is your best bet. Things like Stable 26 socks or having a very competent shop add padding can help, but it really shouldn't be your first choice - finding a skate that locks the heel in well without a lot of extra effort is ideal. This can of course be tough if you have wide forefeet, but stock EE Makos may work after baking (they do for me). Other than that, try on every model you possibly can and if you feel nothing works and have the budget you can consider custom skates (either from the major brands or a company like VH).

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Nexus 5000 are not heat-moldable. They are rather soft, kind of an alternative to CCM RBK70. You definitely need stiffer skates. At that size and pronation problem, you will crush almost any pair of skates...  You can always look at a few years old higher end skates. Makos could be too shallow of instep, so you need to look at that.

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10 hours ago, Utterkaos94 said:

There's no way to actually fix the pronation. I use superfeet insoles with some extra arch support added to decrease the pronation and I have added shims to the holders.

True and not true. You can't "fix" pronation but you can address how the foot sits in the boot relative to the blade (either offset and or off canter) and this will stabilise your foot in the boot. Read the following, it's a few years old but from the experts in this field and nothing has changed:

http://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

Some prefer shims to mainly address the problem, some prefer blade alignment. There is no right answer other than finding what works for you.

With blade alignment, there is also another approach you can try that is a bit left field and requires some outside help. Stay with the Nexus but buy as wide a skate as you can in your length, EE if you can. You are looking for a skate that will give you 1mm - 2mm of room around the outside of your feet. Using gel pads (I have used the 1/2mm and 1mm thick gel pads that are used for the balls of your feet), cut them to the shape of the inside of your feet and tape these to your feet so you are creating a lining between the sides of your feet and the boot. By adjusting the thickness of the lining on each side of your feet (say 2mm thick on the inside and nothing on the outside) you can shift your foot relative to the blade. Then by trial and error of skating, you can determine which is the best setup for you to help. Then you need to find a good skate repairer and have them lift the lining of the boot and insert a flexible plastic liner of the required thickness under the boot lining and then glue / restitch everything back up.

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5 hours ago, althoma1 said:

Heating the area and squeezing it in helps more in boots that actually change shape with heat molding like the Mako and VH skates. With most other models heat molding doesn't actually change the shape of the boot and it's just done to help with break in. 

Not really true. I have reshaped a number of Supremes so they look a lot more like a vapour boot thru the lower ankle area. The key to the success of this is what materials are used to construct the boot, anything with a high content of carbon fibre in it can be reshaped ergo most top of the line boots made these days. 

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29 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Not really true. I have reshaped a number of Supremes so they look a lot more like a vapour boot thru the lower ankle area. The key to the success of this is what materials are used to construct the boot, anything with a high content of carbon fibre in it can be reshaped ergo most top of the line boots made these days. 

Fair enough. It's always easier to start with a boot that fits as well as possible though - so if the Nexus is wider than his ankle and he can find something that provides a better lock without any additional effort then he's better off doing that.

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5 hours ago, althoma1 said:

Fair enough. It's always easier to start with a boot that fits as well as possible though - so if the Nexus is wider than his ankle and he can find something that provides a better lock without any additional effort then he's better off doing that.

Agreed but sometimes you have to start with a pig (fit wise) and turn it into a diamond. Some MX3's I worked on a few weeks ago, the player had apx2's which, combined with a haglands bump, had ruined his heel, he now had tendonitis in the achillies. He has a very narrow heel and ankle and even the apx2;s didn't give him good heel lock. Made a mold of his foot, made outside clamps to shape the heel and ankle area, spot heated the rear of the boot, clamped and reshaped so it now looks like a vapour on steroids from behind. In some places (just under the ankle) the movement was nearly 2cm's inwards. Punched a pocket for his haglands and he is now back skating pain free and in a boot that locks him in like a custom.

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Those must have been like skating in Chuck Taylor's! I'd look at a close out curve composite type of boot given your size. And don't worry if they don't fit right, that boot will need some punching after baking and a few skates to get the right fit. At least that was my last two experiences

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On August 23, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Vet88 said:

Agreed but sometimes you have to start with a pig (fit wise) and turn it into a diamond. Some MX3's I worked on a few weeks ago, the player had apx2's which, combined with a haglands bump, had ruined his heel, he now had tendonitis in the achillies. He has a very narrow heel and ankle and even the apx2;s didn't give him good heel lock. Made a mold of his foot, made outside clamps to shape the heel and ankle area, spot heated the rear of the boot, clamped and reshaped so it now looks like a vapour on steroids from behind. In some places (just under the ankle) the movement was nearly 2cm's inwards. Punched a pocket for his haglands and he is now back skating pain free and in a boot that locks him in like a custom.

Is this the same method you are referring to?  I may try the same in my APX2's because i have a slight bit of movement in the heel.   

 

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Yes but I'm generally trying to get the area under the ankle to move inwards, not the ankle area itself. So I measure the width across the ankle, mark on the inside of the boot where the ankles contact (lipstick is good here) and then using a length of 1" dowel, cut that to the width of the ankle, sand the ends down and then insert that into the boot before clamping. Along with doing up the laces, this helps to hold the general shape of the boot. Then using a 1/2" dowel I cut that to the width of the lower heel area where I am doing the clamp (I undercut this by 1/4"). I then insert the dowel into the boot and brace it in place and then clamp onto the dowel. This gives me the right width across the heel where I am clamping. If it is too tight after the clamp then with the foot in the boot apply a spot heat to one or both sides to get the boot to release a fraction. 

And I'm not sure about the 3 - 4 inches of distance for the heat gun, some skates have a plastic film over them (my apx2's for example) and if you get that close with a heat gun the plastic will lift. I prefer 6 - 8 inches and constant movement.

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11 hours ago, bigsnake76 said:

Is this the same method you are referring to?  I may try the same in my APX2's because i have a slight bit of movement in the heel.  

I've had my Nexus 8000's clamped like that. Only difference being the shop used a skate oven instead of a heat gun.

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2 hours ago, stick9 said:

I've had my Nexus 8000's clamped like that. Only difference being the shop used a skate oven instead of a heat gun.

Are you happy with the outcome after the baking and clamping?   Did it tighten up the heel and lock it in and meet your expectations?

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1 hour ago, bigsnake76 said:

Are you happy with the outcome after the baking and clamping?   Did it tighten up the heel and lock it in and meet your expectations?

Yes, it worked pretty well. In the end though I had to have other work done to the skate to cure the problem, but my case was fairly extreme.

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My Nexus skates did the same thing after 6 months. I found the Tacks and Ribcor fit me fairly well, but the lower volume of the Ribcor was best for me. My nexus' were not the best fitting skates i have owned, i only got them because they were dirt cheap on clearance and I needed some skates  till I could save up enough to get a proper pair. 

 

 

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On 8/23/2016 at 7:32 AM, Utterkaos94 said:

There's no way to actually fix the pronation. I use superfeet insoles with some extra arch support added to decrease the pronation and I have added shims to the holders.

Custom insoles done properly will help support your pronation issue and also support your whole foot front to back. Most high level athletes have some pronation with their feet so it's not the end of the world. When done right, the foot is aligned properly from foot through knee and then the insole is molded based on this. It also sounds like you need stiffer skates and something that fits a little more proper. From that "drawing" above, it looks like Supreme's would be a close fit but volume should also be addressed. If you're foot is sitting to high in the skate you'll end up with lace bite and Supreme's seem to have the least amount of volume in the Bauer line. If you're going to spend the money, Having been fit for custom insoles, I would say to get those with your new skates. If you're going to spend the money, it's well worth having your foot supported properly when you're on the ice. This is one area where you get what you pay for.

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