Curve Question: P88 and E28

[Jamarquan 201]

Hey everyone, I've been looking to buy a new stick, and I've been trying to pick between the P88 and E28 style curves, because I'v got the technique down more than other curves. The P88 gets me less lift on my shots, but more speed and a faster release. The open toe curves are the opposite: less spin and a slower release, but more lift. Which should I go with, unless there is a curve in the middle of the two? (The P92 doesn't count.) 

Thanks.

[colins 246]

 

Why does the P92 not count? It's what you're asking for - a curve in between the P88 and E28.

Easton E3 is another, but if you don't like the P92 it's pretty close.

The other curve that comes to mind is CCM's P29 - it's been described as a cross between the P92 and P88. A little less open than the E3. Also been described as a deeper P19 (which I loved and wish CCM would bring back).

Personally? I'm old school (44 years old), between the P88 and E28 it's the P88 for me - these kids with their newfangled E28's should get off my lawn!

[Jamarquan 201]

3 hours ago, colins said:

 

Why does the P92 not count? It's what you're asking for - a curve in between the P88 and E28.

Easton E3 is another, but if you don't like the P92 it's pretty close.

The other curve that comes to mind is CCM's P29 - it's been described as a cross between the P92 and P88. A little less open than the E3. Also been described as a deeper P19 (which I loved and wish CCM would bring back).

Personally? I'm old school (44 years old), between the P88 and E28 it's the P88 for me - these kids with their newfangled E28's should get off my lawn!

I don't know how different they are, but I have a W03 (the Warrior P92 clone) and I just don't know how to shoot well with it. They're all low and have no velocity. I was looking for an alternative to that, but if there isn't one I'll try to improve with one or the other.

[psulion22 402]

For me, P28 on mid-kick sticks, P88 on low kick sticks.  Like you said, the P28 takes longer to release, which the mid-kick gives you.  If I have the time to get a full release and lift the heel, I can get great hard shots to the corners.  But if I have to shoot quickly or can't get my hands far enough in front, shots are weak or wobble because I'm not getting the benefit of engaging the toe.  It comes down to passing for me though.  P88 gives me hard, flat passes with spin.  P28 can give wobbly passes or ones that lift because of the toe.  P88 on the '16 1X gave me the hardest, fastest released, most consistent shots and passes I have seen on pretty much any stick I've used.

[Jamarquan 201]

15 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

For me, P28 on mid-kick sticks, P88 on low kick sticks.  Like you said, the P28 takes longer to release, which the mid-kick gives you.  If I have the time to get a full release and lift the heel, I can get great hard shots to the corners.  But if I have to shoot quickly or can't get my hands far enough in front, shots are weak or wobble because I'm not getting the benefit of engaging the toe.  It comes down to passing for me though.  P88 gives me hard, flat passes with spin.  P28 can give wobbly passes or ones that lift because of the toe.  P88 on the '16 1X gave me the hardest, fastest released, most consistent shots and passes I have seen on pretty much any stick I've used.

I would think the opposite. Put the P88 on a mid kick where you get a quick release with more power, and put the P28 on a low kick. To each their own, though. I'm not a great passer either, which was one thing my PM9 was good at. 

 

From the way you put it, the P88 looks like the way to go. Thanks.

[psulion22 402]

1 minute ago, Jamarquan said:

I would think the opposite. Put the P88 on a mid kick where you get a quick release with more power, and put the P28 on a low kick. To each their own, though. I'm not a great passer either, which was one thing my PM9 was good at. 

 

From the way you put it, the P88 looks like the way to go. Thanks.

It takes more movement and longer to load the P28 properly.  It also takes more movement and time to load a mid-kick properly.  So they work well together.  The low-kick is about less motion, less load, and a quicker release.  I don't see as much benefit from the P28 with that.  If you want the open toe in a low-kick, I think you'd be better off with a P92 so that you don't have to engage the toe to get the lift.  With the P88 on the 1X, I got hard shots, good elevation, and a very fast release with little effort.  Just quick wrist snaps were enough to get good results and even pick corners with the P88.  I don't think it would have been the same in the P28.  But you're right, it depends on you.  I'm a defenseman who doesn't take many slap shots.  So I'm concerned with crisp passes and hard shots that I can get off quickly, accurately, and stable.  P88 on the 1X was the best for that.  I'm using a P28 1N now, and sometimes those things are inconsistent.

[vinprun71 61]

24 minutes ago, Jamarquan said:

I would think the opposite. Put the P88 on a mid kick where you get a quick release with more power, and put the P28 on a low kick. To each their own, though. I'm not a great passer either, which was one thing my PM9 was good at. 

 

From the way you put it, the P88 looks like the way to go. Thanks.

By nature, it's easier to have clean passes with a P88 type of curve. It's a pretty balanced curve that doesn't necessarily do one particular function better than another. There's also a lot of blade on the ice when the stick is cut properly.

If you're struggling to have clean passes to begin with, it will take some time to adjust to the P28, but it's definitely doable. I've found the mid curves I have to be the least thrilling but most consistent. I'm currently playing with a P28 style curve and personally favor them. In the end, as many will tell you, it's all preference. Try them both and decide.

[puckpilot 312]

IMHO, pick the curve that you think fits your style of game the best and what you like to do with the puck. Then practice practice practice and refine your technique. I use the P92 blade but I've used the P88,  P45, and the P46, and with a few minutes practice to adjust, I don't have any trouble shooting with any of them.

That's because my technique is sound. Yes, certain blades will make doing certain things easier and quicker and may make doing others a little more difficult, but IMHO if you have good technique there isn't a blade pattern out there that you can't use and use well.

[flip12 699]

I keep posting this, but if an X28 is giving you wobbly passes or shots, you're releasing between the middle of the blade and the toe which is essentially a no fly zone. If you get the feel for releasing before the toe scoops up, you're golden. On the other side, if you release on just the toe and keep it away from the flat/scoop doldrums, you're golden. It's when you get a mix that you get wobble. Just picture it, half of the puck has contact with the blade, half doesn't: when you lift to release, the part contacting the blade comes along with and the other half keeps falling with the gravity of the earth, so you get a wobble. Avoid that wobble zone and it's a great blade for heel-mid and toe shots. Just not so much mid-toe as that produces the wobble.

[syinx 139]

24 minutes ago, flip12 said:

I keep posting this, but if an X28 is giving you wobbly passes or shots, you're releasing between the middle of the blade and the toe which is essentially a no fly zone. If you get the feel for releasing before the toe scoops up, you're golden. On the other side, if you release on just the toe and keep it away from the flat/scoop doldrums, you're golden. It's when you get a mix that you get wobble. Just picture it, half of the puck has contact with the blade, half doesn't: when you lift to release, the part contacting the blade comes along with and the other half keeps falling with the gravity of the earth, so you get a wobble. Avoid that wobble zone and it's a great blade for heel-mid and toe shots. Just not so much mid-toe as that produces the wobble.

This.  It's odd, but the X28 curve is one of my favourite quick-release curves available.  Shooting off the toe still gives me some pretty solid velocity without having to really load up.  I've dropped down in flex a bit so that I could get more flexion out of the stick when loading at the toe, and the result were nice, clean, quick shots.

[vinprun71 61]

27 minutes ago, syinx said:

This.  It's odd, but the X28 curve is one of my favourite quick-release curves available.  Shooting off the toe still gives me some pretty solid velocity without having to really load up.  I've dropped down in flex a bit so that I could get more flexion out of the stick when loading at the toe, and the result were nice, clean, quick shots.

This is part of the trick. A stick that's easier to flex makes it easier to use this curve. Leaning into that shot yields the best results from toe shooting.

[sss1987 55]

Thread revival...sorry, thought id offer my opinion anyway.

Ive used P88, P28/E28, and P92 in the last year (experimenting with curves).

I always came back to the P88. To me at least, the P88 is a very inoffensive curve. It catches and sends passes very well. Stick handling is good, as are backhands. There is a lot of blade down, and the rockered heel does make it quite versatile..at least for me. 

 

[Jamarquan 201]

 

I forgot to mention that I'm a foward who only takes wrist shots from the circles and in, so obviously we would need different things, so maybe I'm better off going for the quickest release possible (P88+low kick) to get shots off before someone gets in front of it, and I've never been good with mid kicks (NXG, Dynasty). However my search for a new stick has led me to four options: STX Stallion 200 (X88), True A1.0 SBP (MC), Graf G95 Revolt (GP088), and the Sherwood T90 (Either PP77 - the Coffey or PP09, which is Bauer's P91A) Obviously this thread has told me to use the P88 and its clones, but would the Coffey or PP09 have a larger benefit for me?

Yes, I know the Graf and Sherwood are top end and the STX and True are not.

[sss1987 55]

Sherwood do a P88 clone too

[Jamarquan 201]

1 hour ago, sss1987 said:

Sherwood do a P88 clone too

Yes, but I can't find it in a Junior stick, and righty at that, but if the PP09 and PP77 aren't the way to go I won't get the T90

[innotastic 12]

you ain't gonna wanna hear this i think you might be overthinking it and overestimating how much you "got the technique down more than other curves".

I've been switching between the p88 and e28 (and clones) for the better part of two years and you can get quick releases off both, and you can get good lift off both with the right technique, but the technique for either are not the same. 

and if you're using junior flexes, thats a whole different conversation, as the technique changes based on that alone. 

the best advice i can give is that a curve should complement your style, not compensate for it. and go for the p88. 

[rawkstar 45]

Just out of curiosity how long is your p92 curve stick? It could be the reason you aren't getting good shots is a stick that's not correct length or lie. Check out www.cuthockeysticks.com

p92 curves are very popular, they do exactly what you are after and a lot of players use them. In fact when Adam Oates was the caps coach tried to switch the entire team to using p92 type curves just because of all the things that curve does well.

I played with p92 for a long time and tried checking out p88 and e28 and honestly found both of those limiting. For me P92 is the one curve that does everything well.

[cookie 65 1]

Hello gents. Jamarquan, I'm not sure why you are saying that "True" is a lower end stick. I have a True A 5.2 (5 lie) in my arsenal and it performs very well. Indeed, extremely durable. I will admit that it isn't my favourite though. A buddy of mine swears by his so I bought one to try. The thing I don't like about it is that I had to settle for their MC curve (mid curve). Very similar to PP88. I have used the PP77, 5.5 lie (Coffey) curve since forever. This is a deep mid curve.  I don't like the toe curves either because it's too hard to control a backhand shot or make a pass on the backhand, especially if you need to saucer that pass. The PP77 or Warrior's W71 (Pacioretty, 5 lie) curve lets me do all that. They let me toe drag, roof the puck when in close, and they are great for giving saucer passes or receiving passes. I also don't mind CCM's P46 5.5 lie (Bergeron, Landeskog) curve. It's very close to Coffey's too. Another question, Innotastic mentioned something about you potentially using junior flex stick shafts. If so, then why? I'm 5-11 and weight 200 pounds. I use senior 85 flex shafts mostly because I'm a right winger and take very few slap shots. I also cut about 6 inches off of my stick which probably makes my shaft closer to a 95 flex. Aside from my True stick, which is the only time I deviated, I'm a Sherwood, CCM or Warrior man that only buys the above mentioned sticks (curves, flex and lie). Innotastic is correct in saying that different sticks will most likely require different techniques. That is another reason for me why my True isn't one of my favourites. I'm so used to using the Coffey curve and those that are very similar that is second nature to me. The way I load my shot with those sticks doesn't work so well if I try to do ie the same way with my True, even though the flex and lie are the same, the curve is enough to force you to do something a little differently.

[flip12 699]

3 hours ago, Paul Chevrier said:

Hello gents. Jamarquan, I'm not sure why you are saying that "True" is a lower end stick. I have a True A 5.2 (5 lie) in my arsenal and it performs very well. Indeed, extremely durable. I will admit that it isn't my favourite though. A buddy of mine swears by his so I bought one to try. The thing I don't like about it is that I had to settle for their MC curve (mid curve). Very similar to PP88. I have used the PP77, 5.5 lie (Coffey) curve since forever. This is a deep mid curve.  I don't like the toe curves either because it's too hard to control a backhand shot or make a pass on the backhand, especially if you need to saucer that pass. The PP77 or Warrior's W71 (Pacioretty, 5 lie) curve lets me do all that. They let me toe drag, roof the puck when in close, and they are great for giving saucer passes or receiving passes. I also don't mind CCM's P46 5.5 lie (Bergeron, Landeskog) curve. It's very close to Coffey's too. Another question, Innotastic mentioned something about you potentially using junior flex stick shafts. If so, then why? I'm 5-11 and weight 200 pounds. I use senior 85 flex shafts mostly because I'm a right winger and take very few slap shots. I also cut about 6 inches off of my stick which probably makes my shaft closer to a 95 flex. Aside from my True stick, which is the only time I deviated, I'm a Sherwood, CCM or Warrior man that only buys the above mentioned sticks (curves, flex and lie). Innotastic is correct in saying that different sticks will most likely require different techniques. That is another reason for me why my True isn't one of my favourites. I'm so used to using the Coffey curve and those that are very similar that is second nature to me. The way I load my shot with those sticks doesn't work so well if I try to do ie the same way with my True, even though the flex and lie are the same, the curve is enough to force you to do something a little differently.

The lie numbers you're using are not at all relatable to each other. Warrior, Sher-Wood, CCM, and True don't all use the same lie system. Sher-Wood and CCM are similar, marking their own curves about 0.5 higher than a lot of the rest. Warrior marks theirs around 1.0 lower. True marks their MC as a 5, Warrior's version, the P88, they call a 4, and Bauer calls a 6; that's all for the same curve. The P46 should be labeled a 5, especially if the P28 get's a 5. That should be closer to 5.5 Most Sher-Wood P77's are also closer to a 5, and the Warrior W71 as a 5 would be a 6 with some other companies and probably a 6.5 with CCM.

[cookie 65 1]

Interesting observation, Flip. How do you know this? Did you physically measure the shaft to blade angles of each of these sticks or physically compare them to each other?  It is my understanding that each lie is supposed to fall within a designated angle expressed in degrees. For example, a 5 lie corresponds to 135 degree angle, and each additional lie value corresponds to a 2 degree smaller or larger angle, depending if you are increasing or decreasing your lie. This measurement corresponds to the area between the stick shaft and the blade. For consistency and uniformity, one would think that manufactures would want something like an "ISO" standardizing/conformity system. All I can say is that the sticks that I use and mentioned all feel the same to me, which is why I use them interchangeably. The only one that I have to adapt a little too is my True stick and that's because of the curve, not the lie. I cannot use a stick with a 6 lie, I've tried it, I skate too low to the ice in a forward leaning position. The W71 must be awfully close to Sherwood's lie system otherwise I wouldn't be able to use it.

[colins 246]

 

Here's the PP77 (lie 5.5), W88 (lie 4? Not marked on shaft) and MC (lie 5) compared. I've taped the blades together with the heels lined up, not exactly scientific but I can tell you the blades/rockers are aligned for these pics about as well as you can align them for such a comparion. I didn't have a P88 left in the house to compare, my youngest cracked off his MX3 a couple weeks ago.

 

 

colins

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

2 hours ago, Paul Chevrier said:

Interesting observation, Flip. How do you know this? Did you physically measure the shaft to blade angles of each of these sticks or physically compare them to each other?  It is my understanding that each lie is supposed to fall within a designated angle expressed in degrees. For example, a 5 lie corresponds to 135 degree angle, and each additional lie value corresponds to a 2 degree smaller or larger angle, depending if you are increasing or decreasing your lie. This measurement corresponds to the area between the stick shaft and the blade. For consistency and uniformity, one would think that manufactures would want something like an "ISO" standardizing/conformity system. All I can say is that the sticks that I use and mentioned all feel the same to me, which is why I use them interchangeably. The only one that I have to adapt a little too is my True stick and that's because of the curve, not the lie. I cannot use a stick with a 6 lie, I've tried it, I skate too low to the ice in a forward leaning position. The W71 must be awfully close to Sherwood's lie system otherwise I wouldn't be able to use it.

 

Paul, there is almost no consistency in lie or flex ratings between manufacturers. While it might make sense for that to be the case it just is not so.  That's just one of many reasons why MSH is so important - you get to read through posts from people who really know what they are talking about and have great experience.  Take some time, use the search function and read some more and you will see lots of discussions about lie.  Welcome to the forum!!!  Lots of good stuff here.

[Cavs019 702]

Curves don't have quick or slow shot releases, players do.

I'd also add that with the prevalence of rockered blades, absolute lie has become less relevant in my view. You can line two blades up in the store and they will play much differently on the ice if the rockers aren't exact. I'd also never ever look at the number stamped on the stick, especially across different brands.

My shooting motion has worked for me for 23 years. Call me stubborn, but I'd never change it to accommodate a curve. As the P106/P91 are dying I've tried out the P28, P92, and P88. I shoot how I shoot, and the one that best accommodates my motion is the one I'll keep. As such it looks like I'm landing on the 88. Can I use all three? Sure. But I'd prefer to rely on muscle memory rather than having to proactively remind myself to take lacrosse style pull and fling shots that give me no benefit in velocity, release time, or accuracy compared to a more mild, less gimmicky curve.

Also, for those looking for a P28-P88 cross, no mention of the P14 in this thread?

Cheers. 

[Jamarquan 201]

13 hours ago, rawkstar said:

Just out of curiosity how long is your p92 curve stick? It could be the reason you aren't getting good shots is a stick that's not correct length or lie. Check out www.cuthockeysticks.com

p92 curves are very popular, they do exactly what you are after and a lot of players use them. In fact when Adam Oates was the caps coach tried to switch the entire team to using p92 type curves just because of all the things that curve does well.

I played with p92 for a long time and tried checking out p88 and e28 and honestly found both of those limiting. For me P92 is the one curve that does everything well.

57 inches I believe. (Warrior Dynasty HD5 Intermediate) I know it's also way too long, the damn thing's up to my eyebrows off skates.

 

12 hours ago, cookie 65 said:

Hello gents. Jamarquan, I'm not sure why you are saying that "True" is a lower end stick. I have a True A 5.2 (5 lie) in my arsenal and it performs very well. Indeed, extremely durable. I will admit that it isn't my favourite though. A buddy of mine swears by his so I bought one to try. The thing I don't like about it is that I had to settle for their MC curve (mid curve). Very similar to PP88. I have used the PP77, 5.5 lie (Coffey) curve since forever. This is a deep mid curve.  I don't like the toe curves either because it's too hard to control a backhand shot or make a pass on the backhand, especially if you need to saucer that pass. The PP77 or Warrior's W71 (Pacioretty, 5 lie) curve lets me do all that. They let me toe drag, roof the puck when in close, and they are great for giving saucer passes or receiving passes. I also don't mind CCM's P46 5.5 lie (Bergeron, Landeskog) curve. It's very close to Coffey's too. Another question, Innotastic mentioned something about you potentially using junior flex stick shafts. If so, then why? I'm 5-11 and weight 200 pounds. I use senior 85 flex shafts mostly because I'm a right winger and take very few slap shots. I also cut about 6 inches off of my stick which probably makes my shaft closer to a 95 flex. Aside from my True stick, which is the only time I deviated, I'm a Sherwood, CCM or Warrior man that only buys the above mentioned sticks (curves, flex and lie). Innotastic is correct in saying that different sticks will most likely require different techniques. That is another reason for me why my True isn't one of my favourites. I'm so used to using the Coffey curve and those that are very similar that is second nature to me. The way I load my shot with those sticks doesn't work so well if I try to do ie the same way with my True, even though the flex and lie are the same, the curve is enough to force you to do something a little differently.

I was looking at the A1.0 SBP ($60). It may be a good stick, but would absolutely be on the lower end of the True range, and I do have a P46 on my Ribcor 26K (also too long.) I've moved to Junior sticks because I'm 5'5'' and 120 lbs. Your concern about toe curves doesn't really apply to me, I almost never use my backhand, same with toe drags which you called a strength of the PP77. Considering I've tried two opposite ends of the curve spectrum (PM9 and P46), on two very different types of sticks, in terms of kickpoints and shaft sizes / flex. (high and low, Jr. and Int. respectively.) The PM9 had a quick release, even on a Supreme stick, and the P46 had lift, but was difficult to find the ideal way to get velocity and release speed, so the P88 sounds like an ideal middle ground of release and velocity from the PM9 and the lift of the P46, from my understanding of the curve.

[flip12 699]

4 hours ago, cookie 65 said:

Interesting observation, Flip. How do you know this? Did you physically measure the shaft to blade angles of each of these sticks or physically compare them to each other?  It is my understanding that each lie is supposed to fall within a designated angle expressed in degrees. For example, a 5 lie corresponds to 135 degree angle, and each additional lie value corresponds to a 2 degree smaller or larger angle, depending if you are increasing or decreasing your lie. This measurement corresponds to the area between the stick shaft and the blade. For consistency and uniformity, one would think that manufactures would want something like an "ISO" standardizing/conformity system. All I can say is that the sticks that I use and mentioned all feel the same to me, which is why I use them interchangeably. The only one that I have to adapt a little too is my True stick and that's because of the curve, not the lie. I cannot use a stick with a 6 lie, I've tried it, I skate too low to the ice in a forward leaning position. The W71 must be awfully close to Sherwood's lie system otherwise I wouldn't be able to use it.

It's come from a lot of experience with curves that don't work for me, anything above a 5.5 lie basically, and finding best success with those curves that stay as close as possible to an E4's lie 5. Once I discovered that detail and grew frustrated with the limited choices around that lie I got really curious about what was coming out and if it might work for me. As @dkmiller3356 said, a lot of it comes from scouring the depths of MSH for nuggets on why 5's are so scarce. I would love if companies adhered to a single system like you describe. That said, as @Cavs019 pointed out, the 4, 5, 6, 7 lie system doesn't capture the intricacies of contemporary curves. What seems to set the manufacturers apart is measuring sticks as though they were still straight on the bottom, as back in the '50's.

I have a few ideas for doing that, but I don't have access to the sticks to build the kind of true cross-referential database I would like. I don't know the math to propose a better system for describing lies. I suspect a knowledge of Bezier curves could help. But I also think it might be necessary to take the curve into account, but I imagine blind testing might be necessary to verify that.