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tpedersen3118

Hollows

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31 minutes ago, Larry54 said:

I think that if you're a decent skater and skate often enough, you'll notice the difference. A few weeks ago, I decided to go from 5/8" to 11/16" and noticed that I have to lean my skates a bit more to get enough bite, otherwise I occasionally get a small unexpected sideways skid under certain circumstances. I've adjusted to this and feel like I still get as much bite as I need overall. The only doubt this brings up is whether the additional movement to increase the lean of my skates affects economy of movement. In other words, when I make a quick change of direction switching from my inside edge to my outside edge or vice versa, I have to make a greater change in the angle of my skate from one edge to the other to maintain grip. This only adds a fraction of a second but it can make a difference.

I've also noticed that there's less "crunching" on tight turns making them feel smoother.

So those are the things I noticed which you can look out for.

you get the sliding out at 5/8 or 11/16th?  I ask, because I'm at 9/16 and getting some sliding out (11ft, 1forward, - I weigh about 220).  and was considering going up to 1/2.  Its worse on the main rink I play on which I thought was a soft rink.  will start my own post, having some issues with stability later in games.....

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1 hour ago, jgold47 said:

you get the sliding out at 5/8 or 11/16th?  I ask, because I'm at 9/16 and getting some sliding out (11ft, 1forward, - I weigh about 220).  and was considering going up to 1/2.  Its worse on the main rink I play on which I thought was a soft rink.  will start my own post, having some issues with stability later in games.....

Just for reference I'm around 145 lbs and skate on 10ft (default step steel profile). But I wear VH skates which apparently get more grip than most skates for a given hollow. I don't get any sliding out if I angle my skate properly but after a few years on 5/8", I needed to make a slight adjustment to 11/16" to avoid the skidding. I could get skidding on either 5/8" or 11/16", and I could get grip on either also; it's just a matter of adapting the skate angle to the hollow. If I had to angle my skate so much that the side of the boot almost contacted the ice before I could get enough grip, then I'd assume that I need to dial back the hollow.

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1 hour ago, Larry54 said:

Just for reference I'm around 145 lbs and skate on 10ft (default step steel profile). But I wear VH skates which apparently get more grip than most skates for a given hollow. I don't get any sliding out if I angle my skate properly but after a few years on 5/8", I needed to make a slight adjustment to 11/16" to avoid the skidding. I could get skidding on either 5/8" or 11/16", and I could get grip on either also; it's just a matter of adapting the skate angle to the hollow. If I had to angle my skate so much that the side of the boot almost contacted the ice before I could get enough grip, then I'd assume that I need to dial back the hollow.

You went to a shallower hollow to avoid skidding?  Shouldn't it be the other way round?  I'm assuming "skidding" is the feeling you get when you are in a turn and suddenly feel the skate start to go sideways on you.  11/16 is going to have less grip then 5/8.  So if you were skidding in 5/8 you will definitely be skidding on 11/16, unless you adjust your attack angle.  I would have though 9/16 would have been the hollow to try if you were skidding 5/8 too much for your comfort.  Am I missing something?

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I know what he means. It's not sliding out because there's not enough bite. It's choppy skidding because there's too much bite. I get it myself if I use a deeper hollow and have no issues turning, stopping or transitioning with a shallow hollow (either regular or FBV).

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Ah, got it.  In my mind that feels more like "chatter".  I get it as well sometimes.  I've been gradually going shallower, so maybe that is a good indication to keep pushing that limit. 

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4 hours ago, Larry54 said:

I think that if you're a decent skater and skate often enough, you'll notice the difference. A few weeks ago, I decided to go from 5/8" to 11/16" and noticed that I have to lean my skates a bit more to get enough bite, otherwise I occasionally get a small unexpected sideways skid under certain circumstances. I've adjusted to this and feel like I still get as much bite as I need overall. The only doubt this brings up is whether the additional movement to increase the lean of my skates affects economy of movement. In other words, when I make a quick change of direction switching from my inside edge to my outside edge or vice versa, I have to make a greater change in the angle of my skate from one edge to the other to maintain grip. This only adds a fraction of a second but it can make a difference.

I've also noticed that there's less "crunching" on tight turns making them feel smoother.

So those are the things I noticed which you can look out for.

Good to know. I didn't notice anything much going to 9/16 from 1/2, assuming the subtle differences here again.  I got them sharpened to 5/8 this morning and will give it a go on Wednesday. 

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1 hour ago, krisdrum said:

You went to a shallower hollow to avoid skidding?  Shouldn't it be the other way round?  I'm assuming "skidding" is the feeling you get when you are in a turn and suddenly feel the skate start to go sideways on you.  11/16 is going to have less grip then 5/8.  So if you were skidding in 5/8 you will definitely be skidding on 11/16, unless you adjust your attack angle.  I would have though 9/16 would have been the hollow to try if you were skidding 5/8 too much for your comfort.  Am I missing something?

I wasn't clear. I didn't go to a shallower hollow to avoid skidding. Maybe I should have started off by mentioning that I just wanted to see if I could get better glide without losing too much bite. I was just noting that I had to adjust the attack angle because with 11/16" I was skidding in situations where 5/8" gave me enough grip. I tried to say that I could get enough grip with either hollow by adjusting the attack angle, but being used to 5/8", I had to make a small adjustment when I went to 11/16".

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10 minutes ago, tpedersen3118 said:

Good to know. I didn't notice anything much going to 9/16 from 1/2, assuming the subtle differences here again.  I got them sharpened to 5/8 this morning and will give it a go on Wednesday. 

If you don't notice much difference, then you're better off with the shallower hollow since you'll have better glide even if it's not that noticeable without actually timing your speed using a stopwatch.

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1 hour ago, krisdrum said:

Ah, got it.  In my mind that feels more like "chatter".  I get it as well sometimes.  I've been gradually going shallower, so maybe that is a good indication to keep pushing that limit. 

Yes, chatter would be the best description.

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1 hour ago, krisdrum said:

Ah, got it.  In my mind that feels more like "chatter".  I get it as well sometimes.  I've been gradually going shallower, so maybe that is a good indication to keep pushing that limit. 

Actually, I was also getting a bit of chatter sometimes on the outside edge of the back skate when stopping. Going shallower helped but I also had to make a small correction in technique since changing skates since I went from LS2 to Step Steel and from 263 to 254 size holders.

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22 minutes ago, Larry54 said:

I wasn't clear. I didn't go to a shallower hollow to avoid skidding. Maybe I should have started off by mentioning that I just wanted to see if I could get better glide without losing too much bite. I was just noting that I had to adjust the attack angle because with 11/16" I was skidding in situations where 5/8" gave me enough grip. I tried to say that I could get enough grip with either hollow by adjusting the attack angle, but being used to 5/8", I had to make a small adjustment when I went to 11/16".

Got it, makes sense, I would expect a bit of a change in attack angle as you go shallower.  The question is, is it noticeable/conscious to you as the skater.  Sounds like 5/8 to 11/16 is for you, but maybe wasn't previously.  I would take that as either you are getting closer to the upper threshold of how shallow you can go while balancing performance, or an opportunity to look at your technique and see if the different attack angle is better.  Sounds like you are already thinking about that piece with your comments about stride/movement efficiency. 

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14 minutes ago, althoma1 said:

Yes, chatter would be the best description.

Yeah, skiing was one of my first sports as a kid, so that word definitely conjures up a sensation for me, and as a new skater, it hits the mark for what I feel now and then. 

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5 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

Got it, makes sense, I would expect a bit of a change in attack angle as you go shallower.  The question is, is it noticeable/conscious to you as the skater.  Sounds like 5/8 to 11/16 is for you, but maybe wasn't previously.  I would take that as either you are getting closer to the upper threshold of how shallow you can go while balancing performance, or an opportunity to look at your technique and see if the different attack angle is better.  Sounds like you are already thinking about that piece with your comments about stride/movement efficiency. 

You're right. The difference was so minor that I only noticed it in the 2nd or 3rd session during certain maneuvers like forward/backward transitions that I'd feel a little skid.

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Im kind of in the same boat as the original post. Ive been using 7/16 for a long time and just switched to 1/2 to get more speed. While I noticed a big difference in speed, I now lose my balance a lot easier. Especially when on a break away. Not sure what it is.

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i usually hover around 275-285# and skate on 3/4, the edge didnt last long. the biggest different was the quality of steel. i went from LS2 steel to LS4 and i get easily double the life from a sharping. i believe LS2 and 3 are the same quality of steel (3 just being taller). LS4 is much harder and resistant to edge roll over.

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Hate to say it but if you are getting chatter it's poor technique, not too deep a hollow. If you think your technique is good then try skating with the top 2, 3, 4 or 5 eyelets undone. If your technique is good you will be fine, if it is poor you will find out very quickly as the skate starts to fold on you or you wobble all over the place / lose your balance.

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On 06/12/2016 at 3:13 AM, DarkStar50 said:

Make sure your edges are level. Bad sharpenings could be the cause of your recent problems.

My thought exactly......

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I`m between two hollows.

I`m a beginner in skating (49y, 170cm, 83kg) and startet after christmas (three to five times a week about 16-20 rounds on a 400m course). Because of bad sharpening options around i bought a pair of good fitting Graf Supra G5035 with T-Blades in size 6.5. I`m on medium runners but the hollow 15 (15mm, a bit closer to 9/16 than to  5/8) feels too sharp for me and the next hollow 18 (18mm, a bit closer to 11/16 than to 3/4) seems to be too shallow. If I could I would choose a hollow between. Now my question is should a beginner choose the more deeper or the more shallower hollow and get used to ?

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16 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

I`m between two hollows.

I`m a beginner in skating (49y, 170cm, 83kg) and startet after christmas (three to five times a week about 16-20 rounds on a 400m course). Because of bad sharpening options around i bought a pair of good fitting Graf Supra G5035 with T-Blades in size 6.5. I`m on medium runners but the hollow 15 (15mm, a bit closer to 9/16 than to  5/8) feels too sharp for me and the next hollow 18 (18mm, a bit closer to 11/16 than to 3/4) seems to be too shallow. If I could I would choose a hollow between. Now my question is should a beginner choose the more deeper or the more shallower hollow and get used to ?

That's a question about preference. You could argue for both sides. In my opinion, starting with something deeper will allow you to get an understanding of edges and how to control them. Likewise, it will build a sense of confidence in trusting your edges. Once a skater is comfortable on his/her edges, then experimenting with shallower hollows would allow for better glide without sacrificing too much in the bite department. Personally, I started on a 5/8 hollow and have stuck with it. I've tried 3/4 before, and enjoyed the glide, but I still wanted that extra bite. It's all preference in the end.

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You can get a bite with an edge at any hollow, it is all about technique. I prefer to players to start at the shallowest hollow they can skate on, learn where the edge is, how much lean you need, develop proper technique. An edge with to much bite hides this from a developing player and they can develop bad habits. As they get better and faster then they can start to drop down in hollow if they feel it suits them better. 

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20 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

You can get a bite with an edge at any hollow, it is all about technique. I prefer to players to start at the shallowest hollow they can skate on, learn where the edge is, how much lean you need, develop proper technique. An edge with to much bite hides this from a developing player and they can develop bad habits. As they get better and faster then they can start to drop down in hollow if they feel it suits them better. 

One on my biggest regrets in learning to skate is not starting on a shallower hollow.  My LHS started me on 7/16" then another's standard grind was 1/2".  Both were too deep for me in hindsight.  I've developed some bad habits due to having that much bite at my ready call and not alot of glide.  I've since gone to 9/16" and I'm looking to try 5/8" as soon as my skates need a new sharpening.  On the deep hollows to me there was very little difference between blade flat on the ice (no edge) and on edge, so I really didn't learn to properly angle my foot.  So I could select inside, no edge (flat) or outside.  Going to a shallower hollow has made it clear I have some work to do to gain better control of my edges.  I think if I had stuck with a deeper hollow, I would have never realized that, and ultimately it probably would have stagnated my ability to really improve and gain solid technique.  

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OK, sounds like I should go with the deeper hollow for a while.

With the shallower hollow i have the feeling of beeing lost a little on the ice because the edges are not well defined. With the deeper hollow i can even better feel the difference between beeing flat or on an edge. With the deeper hollow i couldn´t skate "cutting eggs" because my edges got stick to the ice. With the shallower one I could do it. Yesterday i was trying the deeper one again and I could do "cutting eggs". Seems to be a question of technique and training. Looks like some techniques are more easy to learn on shallower hollows and others on deeper hollows.

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Interesting discussion.  I have been skating on 11/16th ROH with a 9' radius for the past 2 years.  (I'm 6'2", 200 lbs. for reference.)  

I have a spare set of runners, so I decided to try a 10' radius with a 3/4" ROH, and after 1 public skate it feels good.  The increased glide was noticable immediatly, and I also noticed much more stability while on my outside edges.  I figured that the larger radius would put more blade on the ice, which theoretically could provide more bite while turning, allowing me to go to a shallower hollow for more glide.  (I'm a slow skater, and learned as an adult, so I need all the help I can get.)  I will definitly need to focus on form, especially on tight turns, as I could spin out much easier.  

It will take a game or two to really determine whether or not it will work for me, but it is cool to have options to test out.  

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On 2/24/2017 at 7:24 PM, Vet88 said:

You can get a bite with an edge at any hollow, it is all about technique. I prefer to players to start at the shallowest hollow they can skate on, learn where the edge is, how much lean you need, develop proper technique. An edge with to much bite hides this from a developing player and they can develop bad habits. As they get better and faster then they can start to drop down in hollow if they feel it suits them better. 

You also have to hope that the 12yo at your LHS does a good job while chatting with his buddy, yes it is that bad to get a decent sharpening around here (MTL), or at least I dont know where to go in my area. 

For what its worth, Im around 173cm / 80-85kg. Anything under 5/8 I have trouble stopping, if we may call it skidding as stated above, I lose speed (a lot of speed) and and my quads get fatigued and start burning.  Something sharper has advantages too, like easier one leg stopping, edges last longer and turning is ''tighter'', but for me I prefer to stick to shallower hollows.  

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Yesterday I went down to 1/2 ROH because the bite of the 5/8 ROH is too weak for my new project "learning forward crossover". For my normal skating the 1/2 ROH is way too deep in case of stopping, gliding, agility and catching an edge. But for the crossover-drills I was afraid of falling because I didn't have enough bite to trust my edges with the 5/8 ROH. Changing the runners took less than 10 minutes and I definitely had a more secure feeling doing my exercises.

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