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dannyboy

Skate options for returning player (xpost from reddit)

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Hi all, I posted this over at Reddit/hockeyplayers but would like to hear what you guys have to say too.  I've added a little extra info and answered some questions that came up over there.

 

I'm a 34 year old Aussie that's getting back into hockey after ~7-8 years off the ice. I played for about ten years prior to that (from about 16-26, give or take). Was always a strong and aggressive skater, and my skating was always better than the rest of my game lol.  I'm 6' 95kg (200lb) but am skating for fitness and expect to be closer to 80 or 85kg (170-180lb or so) by the time I start playing regularly.

 

About 4-6 weeks ago I decided to get back into skating and hockey, and on a bit of an impulse I bought a set of Supreme 150 skates (not S150) in a 9EE. I used to skate in a set of 6.5 Grafs which were always quite a bit too small, my toes were jammed up a bit and I developed a bit of hammer toe over the years... for this reason I erred a bit on the big side and after chasing the cause of some mean lace bite and pain in the ball of my foot directly behind my big toe (metatarsalgia I'm told) it was determined that my skates were at least a size too big. If I put the skate on loose and pushed my foot forward so that my toes are up against the front of the toe box, I can fit two fingers side by side between my achilles and the back of the boot! I have since sold the Supreme 150s for not much less than I paid for them and am shopping for something in a better fit.

 

The shape of the Supreme 150 seems to be pretty good. When I was fitting these boots I tried on some Vapors and found them to be a bit narrow all over I think, and today I tried some Nexus 7000s in an 8.5EE which felt WEIRD, as if they weren't wide enough in the ball area. I believe my feet start narrow at the heel and end up wide under the ball, and I have a fairly high arch with a tendency to pronate significantly. NOTE: Due to my pronation I had planned to have custom footbeds made for these by my local ski shop, not simple heat and shape ones but fully custom orthotic ski boot footbeds. The owner at the ski shop is a buddy of mine and a pretty keen skater so I'm confident he knows what he's doing.

 

Considering that I seem to like the fit of the Supreme line, the current options I'm considering from my LHS are:

 

Supreme S160 - $399

Supreme 180 - $399

Supreme S180 - $699

Supreme TotalOne MX3 - $799

(prices in Aussie dollars)

 

I can afford top end skates but I don't really want to go too crazy and spend any more than I have to. The Supreme 180 at $399 seems like a good mid to high end skate at a closeout price (and they have an 8.0EE in stock which should be a decent fit)... I see the S180 has had some minor updates from the 180 but is it really worth spending an extra $300 for what looks to be pretty much the same skate? In the event I do talk myself into springing for the S180, would it be advisable to go all out and drop the extra $100 on the MX3? The next step up from there is the 1S at $1199 and I am NOT spending that much!! :)  

 

Someone at Reddit asked why I'm only looking at Bauers - the simple answer is I have access to most of the Bauer range through my LHS but limited access to CCM and others.  I can mail order but I'd rather buy something I can try on.

 

Apologies for the long post for what ended up a pretty simple question about skate models but I'm hoping that if there's any major flaw in my thinking then someone more experienced might bring it to my attention :)

 

TIA

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Honestly, try them all on. As you go up the line you will notice differences in fit and stiffness. I looked at both the 180 and 190 when they came out, went with the 190 because of a noticed difference in stiffness between the 180 and 190 / MX3 (same boot). I also wear a 8 EE and even after baking and break-in had some areas punched for a little bit better fit, not an uncommon practice with composite boots.

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I agree with your assessment that the 180 for $399 will be the best bang for the buck out of those options and price points. I would not be so sure 8EE is the size you need though.  It sounds like your old skates were more than just one size too big.

Grafs usually fit a half size smaller than a Bauer. So your old 6.5 Grafs would've been a similar length to a 6 Bauer. If the 6.5 Grafs were too short and you want to try Bauer skates I would start with a 6.5 Bauer (similar length to a 7 Graf) and go from there. Ideally you want the skates to be as snug as possible without being painful. Your toes shouldn't be crammed against the cap, but ideally will just feather the cap with your heel locked in and your skates tied up. I would try both D and EE widths in as many skates as you can find in various sizes. Keep in mind that baking can help with minor hotspots and you can punch and stretch skates to make them bigger,  but you can't make skates smaller. 

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Thanks for the info.  I can get boots punched at the ski shop so that's all good.

So you noticed a significant difference in the 180/190/MX3 boot?  Unfortunately I don't have access to 190s here, provided they both fit perfectly do you think the difference between the 180 and the MX3 would warrant the extra $400?

EDIT: posted this just as your reply popped up althoma1.  Thanks for that info.  I'm not sold on the 8, it just happens to be on the shelf at the LHS so I can try it today.  But the more I think about it the more I think I'll make the 150km drive today to the big skate shop in Sydney where they have a decent stock of sizes to try.

Cheers

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No problem.  When you went from a 6.5 Graf to a 9 Bauer you actually jumped up 3 sizes since a 9 Bauer is about the same length as a 9.5 Graf. If the Graf's were too small, it makes sense to try on a half size larger and then a full size if that's still too small, but 3 full sizes was definitely overkill. I am sure you realize that now though. 

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Just now, althoma1 said:

No problem.  When you went from a 6.5 Graf to a 9 Bauer you actually jumped up 3 sizes since a 9 Bauer is about the same length as a 9.5 Graf. If the Graf's were too small, it makes sense to try on a half size larger and then a full size if that's still too small, but 3 full sizes was definitely overkill. I am sure you realize that now though. 

lol yeah it was a bit silly.  I sized them like shoes and left space in the toe box, there's about 10mm between my toes and the end of the skate...

Ah well, I paid $189 and sold them for $150 so it only cost me $40 to realise I want to play hockey again :)

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I'd like to second the though that you should try everything you can get your foot into. I just recently got new skates, and thought I was going to be walking out of the store with CCMs of one form or another, because in the past Bauers did not work for me at all. But once I got my feet into Bauers, I realised the current CCMs just didn't fit my feet as well. And the new skates I have now are the most comfortable skates out of the box I have ever had. No blisters, and only slight discomfort. 

If you want, you can size yourself at home. It's not as good as getting it done at shop where they know what they're doing, but it will get you into the right ball park.  Here's a video that shows you how to size yourself at home. And here are the sizing charts that go along with the video

http://www.hockeytutorial.com/uncategorized/ice-hockey-skate-sizing-chart-width-and-length/

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THE PLOT THICKENS

I went to the rink today and tried on some more Supreme skates.  I've settled fairly well on 8EE in that range.  But this morning I found a roller skating (as in, not inline but old school roller skating) store about 50km from me advertising old stock Graf 705 - turns out they have pallets of Graf stock from a few years ago, including the identical model to the ones I bought in 1998 or so, the ones with the wire mesh and the red/orange stripe up the side.  These were all in unfortunately average condition (leather cracking etc) BUT they also have some more up to date stock including these bad boys:

img.aspx?itm_id=6435&div_id=41&pic_type=

Graf Ultra G75!  They are asking $899 but willing to do them for $809 which puts them at a similar price point to the couple-of-year-old MX3s which are on closeout.

This is where it gets tricky... I don't really know how these will compare with the current line of Bauer or CCM skates.  What I do know is that a size 9.5EE in the old 705 and a 10D in the G75 both seem to fit VERY well (this leads me to believe that my old Grafs must have been 8.5 not 6.5 like I previously thought) and they have quite a few different sizes in these boots.  I always loved my old Graf skates and the sizes I tried on today felt amazing (easily the best fit I've tried so far) so I think I'm sold.

The ones I saw today are IDENTICAL to the picture above, but this store does have a lot of old leftover stock though so I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the G75 range has changed significantly while retaining it's appearance?  The only things I could find on the skate that looked like they could have been a date were 10 - 300405 printed in small text on the inside of the tendon guard and 1108 in large black text on the inside sole (under the footbed).  Does anyone know if either of those numbers correlate to a production date?

How do the Graf blades stack up against other offerings?  They don't appear to have changed their tech in 20 years, the Ultra 3000 carrier on the website is identical to the one I had on my 705s.  Does their gear hold its own against the current field of stuff from Bauer/CCM/Step etc?

Cheers..

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The ultra G75 was one of their recent high end models in the ultra range. Hell of a skate for graf but would be a distance behind the latest models from Bauer and CCM. But tech counts for squat at the end of the day, what really counts is how they fit on your feet and G75's are for a pronounced medium heel and deep instep. Try them on, personally I wouldn't want to pay that much for them as they are an older technology boot and the G75 Lite (which is a better skate again) can still be found from US$275 and upwards.

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39 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

The ultra G75 was one of their recent high end models in the ultra range. Hell of a skate for graf but would be a distance behind the latest models from Bauer and CCM. But tech counts for squat at the end of the day, what really counts is how they fit on your feet and G75's are for a pronounced medium heel and deep instep. Try them on, personally I wouldn't want to pay that much for them as they are an older technology boot and the G75 Lite (which is a better skate again) can still be found from US$275 and upwards.

They may well have some G75Lites there as well, they have all this stock hiding up the back of the warehouse from when they sold a lot of hockey stuff a few years ago... 

The fit of the G75s was pretty amazing.  I tried 8EE S160s today and while they seemed to fit alright the 'pencil test' was a dead failure, the top of my foot sits about 5mm above the level of the leather.  In the G75, the pencil sat on the leather and there was a bit of room between it and my foot, maybe 5mm.  Once laced up the tongues of the S160s were bulging out as if they were trying to push through the laces, on the G75 the laces sat nice and flat.

The skates themselves feel heavier and not quite as stiff as the competition but the fit was pretty great and at 34 years old I have no intention of working up to AIHL or anything like that, I'll be playing local leagues and cutting circles around people in public skate sessions so I think fit is all I should really be looking at....

interesting info on the price, thanks for that.  I found one US site selling G75Lites for $270USD which is about $350 aussie leaving LOADS of room for shipping.  The real issue is I've sold my 150s already and really want to have something on my feet in the next few days! :P

Thanks

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I'm no expert on Graf skates, but know that most people that have gone from Bauer to Graf go a half size up (based on reading sizing posts involving Grafs for years). If they go from Graf to Bauer they go a half size down. So if 8EE is the right length for you in Bauer (toes brushing the cap with your heel locked in and the skates laced) then you should be looking at an 8.5 Graf. The 9.5 might've felt like it fit OK because it's narrower and elongates your foot, the heel may have also been narrower, but in you had 10mm of room in your 9EE Bauers then you'd probably have 10mm of room in 9.5EE Grafs since they'd be around the same length. The 10D Grafs would obviously be even longer, but would be narrower.

You're definitely in danger of buying skates that are too long again if you're considering 9.5 and 10 skates. Use the video Puckpilot posted, measure your feet and then post the results - that will help people give you some guidance regarding sizing for length and width.

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Ultra G75's are heavier than current Bauer/  CCM offerings. Volume can be fixed other ways (lace extenders, velcro wrap around, skip eyelets) if the boot was great everywhere else but it is a hassle. Did you try a Nexus in maybe a D? Deeper and wider than supremes but at a 5mm failure I'm not sure a Nexus will get you there either. And if you are struggling in Supremes for volume then current CCM offerings aren't going to give you anything better. The G75 lites are a stiffer and lighter boot then the ultra G75's, you should try them and if they fit then show them an online price and see if you can get them to come close to the price + shipping. Unfortunately the loss of graf does leave a big hole in the market for those with narrowish heels. wide forefoot and high volume, there is nothing current (outside of custom) that matches this profile.

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Thanks for the help everyone. 

I took a trip down to Sydney to the biggest skate shop I've got access to after doing a heap of research on the Easton MakoII... It was the only decent skate on their site that I hadn't tried so I learnt a but about them. I waited to try them on to make up my mind but after all the good things I'd read about them I was prepped to take them if the fit was good. 

After a bit of measuring I ended up in an 8D, they were very narrow but after what I'd read about how they'd bake I thought they might be ok... Sales bloke thought it'd be worth a try. 

The shop offered to bake them for me with no obligation to buy so we did that and afterwards they felt amazing... They're still tight across the widest part of my foot (5th meta) but otherwise they fit like a glove, apart from the one narrow section the fit is absolutely amazing. 

I'm going to give them a couple of skates to see if they pack out a bit, if not I'll bake em again and try to push them out a little more. If that doesn't work I have a ski shop nearby that does the whole range of bootfitting and will have no problem pushing them out a few mm. 

Spent a lot of money today but hoping that worst case if I can't get them right I'll be able to get close to my money back provided I don't mess with them too much. EEs would have been a better option but the overall fit on these was just too good not to give them a chance.. Now I know what they're like I can always sell these and order some EEs online if need be.... 

Worth noting that I tried Nexus 7ks and Supreme S160s (I tried Vapors a while back), Nexus fit was horrible, Supreme in a 7.5EE was perfect (albeit still a bit light on volume) but not as good as the Mako once baked. So it went baked makos > g75 > S160.

Thanks again for all the help guys, appreciate it. 

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It's great you took the time to drive to a bigger shop and try on as many skates as possible in various sizes. I also use Mako skates and love them. I have used the originals and the Mako II - they both fit well, but the Mako II has been more durable. If you love the Makos and want to pickup a backup pair or determine you need a EE then the Mako II or M8s are your best bets followed by the M7. I would stay away from the originals (silver heels and orange accents) unless you can grab them for dirt cheap as they generally won't last as long (I had the padding compress on my originals after a year of heavy use, but my Mako II's are over 6 months old and are holding up very well. Other people had cracking issues with the OG Mako).

I have a very wide forefoot and narrow heels and EE Makos are the only recent retail skates that feel really nice in the forefoot but still lock in my heel. I tried D width baked and found it too tight in the forefoot, but I did not try having them punched or stretched and my forefeet are extremely wide so it was sqeezing more than just a little.

Hopefully the D width Mako II's can work for you as they are great skates if you get them in the right size. 8 certainly makes a lot more sense than the 9.5 abd 10 Grafs you were considering based on the fact that your 9EE Bauers were at least a size too large.

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2 hours ago, dannyboy said:

Thanks for the help everyone. 

I took a trip down to Sydney to the biggest skate shop I've got access to after doing a heap of research on the Easton MakoII... It was the only decent skate on their site that I hadn't tried so I learnt a but about them. I waited to try them on to make up my mind but after all the good things I'd read about them I was prepped to take them if the fit was good. 

After a bit of measuring I ended up in an 8D, they were very narrow but after what I'd read about how they'd bake I thought they might be ok... Sales bloke thought it'd be worth a try. 

The shop offered to bake them for me with no obligation to buy so we did that and afterwards they felt amazing... They're still tight across the widest part of my foot (5th meta) but otherwise they fit like a glove, apart from the one narrow section the fit is absolutely amazing. 

I'm going to give them a couple of skates to see if they pack out a bit, if not I'll bake em again and try to push them out a little more. If that doesn't work I have a ski shop nearby that does the whole range of bootfitting and will have no problem pushing them out a few mm. 

Spent a lot of money today but hoping that worst case if I can't get them right I'll be able to get close to my money back provided I don't mess with them too much. EEs would have been a better option but the overall fit on these was just too good not to give them a chance.. Now I know what they're like I can always sell these and order some EEs online if need be.... 

Worth noting that I tried Nexus 7ks and Supreme S160s (I tried Vapors a while back), Nexus fit was horrible, Supreme in a 7.5EE was perfect (albeit still a bit light on volume) but not as good as the Mako once baked. So it went baked makos > g75 > S160.

Thanks again for all the help guys, appreciate it. 

Great, hopefully these work out! I'm in the Mako M8's right now (one tier down from the Mako II) and they're the most comfortable skates I've owned. Only suggestion I'll make after making sure the forefoot stretches for you is that if you ever block shots, look into shot blockers.  Best skates I've ever owned, but man do they transfer a lot of energy right into your foot when you take a shot!

Also, from what I understand Graf skates have a pretty aggressive forward pitch...so you should feel right at home on the ice in the Mako's, as they also aggressively pitch forward (+2 in the holder, +1 in the factory steel profile from my understanding).  

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Awesome.  I'm another newer Mako convert.  I'm in the M7 EE width.  Previously skating in Graf 535 wides.  1 skate on the Makos and I haven't looked back.  Like you I really liked the fit of the G75 Lites, but couldn't justify the cost of those at the time.  In hindsight, should have probably tried the R width Grafs side by side with the W.  I think they were ultimately too wide and that extra "slop" resulted in a poor experience.  I tried the Mako Ds, but couldn't get my foot in at all.  Hopefully the fact you could get yours on pre-bake is an indication you just need some spot punching to get them to work.  You might find the EEs to be too wide everywhere else.  Look forward to hearing how these progress for you.

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Thanks guys, good to hear from happy Mako owners. One thing that leant me towards them is that I read through almost every forum post, review, comment etc and I didn't read a single bad word about them... I take what the Internet has to say with a grain of salt but that's usually a pretty good sign.  

"Hopefully the fact you could get yours on pre-bake is an indication you just need some spot punching to get them to work.  You might find the EEs to be too wide everywhere else."

That's what I'm thinking... The overall fit is sensational, they're just a bit narrow in the forefoot. I'm gonna skate today and see, If they are too tight i devised a plan last night to bake them again and use some foam pads inside my socks to get a little extra room, if that doesn't work the ski shop does boot stretching and has a tool to stretch them exactly where I need it so I should be covered. 

Cheers 

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Something to keep in mind with the basically exact fit the Makos give - don't over tighten your laces, especially on the forefoot. The first time I started skating, I tightened them normally (still not very tight) and my foot went numb quickly. I've found that I'd describe the lacing as just snug instead of tightened for all but the bottom two eyelets by the toes and  after the bend up the ankle to lock the foot back. Everything else is just snug, not tight.

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THESE SKATES ARE F***ING INCREDIBLE!  :biggrin:

Definitely still a wee bit narrow in the forefoot and a couple of little hotspots in the back near where the tendon guard joins the boot but I don't think I'll have too much trouble sorting those out.  They might even sort themselves out over time, I'll give them another few skates to see before I start messing with them.

Pitch took a little getting used to after skating Supreme 150s for ~6wks but an hour in I was fine.

This may be more to do with having a perfect fit than the boots themselves but my skating has literally improved tenfold overnight.  After six weeks on the Supremes I was back to my full speed in a straight line but still felt like I was trying to get my edges and my stops back even on my strong side... backwards skating in both directions and forward crossovers to my weak side (turning right) still felt cumbersome and weak.  Within half an hour of stepping on the ice today I was doing all of this stuff almost as strongly as I was ten years ago.... dead set I went from feeling slightly unbalanced on a strong side hockey stop in my Supremes to being able to properly land a full speed jumping hockey stop on my weak side in the Makos.... forward and backwards crossovers to both sides no problem, 180degree hook turns tighter than I think I've ever been able to do, I even tried some old moves that I hadn't been game to try on the Supremes and nailed them.  It's like I never took a break from skating.  Like I said I would probably credit the better fit for that improvement but I'm sure the boots have something to do with it as well, they just go exactly where I tell them every single time...  Half an hour after stepping on the ice I had COMPLETE confidence in them.

I had the rink almost to myself so I skated HARD for a full two hours before the tight spots got a bit too sore, I hadn't been able to go that long in the Supremes yet.  I got some lace bite pain in my right ankle by the end of it but I still had lumps on both ankles left over from my old skates so I reckon I've just stirred those up again.  I'm fairly sure that if I just take it a little easy for a while those will go away.

@tcraig That's good advice and it's actually exactly what I ended up doing today - I just pulled them firm rather than yanking them tight and they held brilliantly.  I feel like the laces on these are just there to hold the boot's shape under load rather than pull the boot around my foot like they do on traditional skates.

Like I said still a few little things to work out on them but I couldn't be happier and am honestly quite stunned at the difference it's made to my skating, I expected an improvement going from a $189 skate to an $800 skate (plus the fit factor as well) but I didn't expect anything like this.  I'm fully expecting a call from the Sabres' lead scout by the end of the day hahaha

Thanks again to everyone who helped and offered advice, I know I ended up going a completely different way than originally planned but every bit of advice was helpful :)

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The Mako II skates are my favourite skates of all time. No separate outsole and the lack of negative space makes them very responsive.  The anatomical toe cap and the way they respond to heat also makes them very comfortable. You made a good choice and I am glad you're enjoying them. 

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