TRUE TF9/TF7 skates

[althoma1 574]

I agree that it's a good comparison. Also, in case you didn't realize, that YouTuber "Hockey Reviews" is @Hills on this forum. 

[krisdrum 223]

2 minutes ago, althoma1 said:

I agree that it's a good comparison. Also, in case you didn't realize, that YouTuber "Hockey Reviews" is @Hills on this forum. 

Cool, had no idea.  I've watched some of his stuff and have found it good quality.  He just gained me as a subscriber.   

[Miller55 327]

3 hours ago, mojo122 said:

 

If they need to be baked just to see if it fits then that could possibly deter small shops as well as bigger retailers from carrying them or carrying decent stock.  Why carry a new skate that you might have to bake multiple times before moving it off the shelf or have it sit there indefinitely?

Not out of loyalty but strictly economics.  Money in versus money out.  Stores' goals are to stock what sells and then replenish and not tie up money on inventory that doesn't move.  Bauer and CCM own the retail market share when it comes to skates and I don't see that changing anytime soon.  Might be the reason why Warrior has done everything BUT skates.

Not sure why baking the skate is such a big deal? I think the opposite is true. Baking the skate will give the best fit and the best chance of selling the skate, whereas not baking it will pretty much guarantee you won't sell it. 

I'd like to believe it's purely economics, but I was explicitly told otherwise. I've heard from multiple owners that they would like to carry them and think they would sell, but don't want to hurt their Bauer relationship. I heard from one manger that their Bauer rep "strongly encouraged them" not to stock True retail. That's a direct quote.

I think the True skates are a good product with an excellent value proposition and Bauer is definitely threatened and they're doing what they can to keep their business. Not saying they're doing anything wrong, it's business. But I've definitely seen this story more than once with Bauer. And it has more to do with keeping their bloated margins than anything else. They own the retail market and want to keep it. Some might call it playing cheap, others can call it using your leverage. Everyone is entitled to their view. Mine is that Bauer cares more about money than hockey. Not a crime, but not something I care to support.

I haven't gotten a pair of True retails to try on yet, but I am getting a check tomorrow... if the finish and fit are good, I'm willing to gamble on the durability of the initial release, although typically I'd wait for the first batch to go and the kinks to be resolved, but I'm interested enough. 

[BenBreeg 488]

If you are trying on 2-3 pairs of Trues that is 2-3 bakes and molding just to compare sizes or models (if you were thinking 7s vs. 9s).  That's a lot of time and money for the store so I can see how it can be both an advantage (you really know how it is going to fit before making your decision) and a disadvantage (time and money).

[flip12 699]

4 hours ago, mojo122 said:

 

If they need to be baked just to see if it fits then that could possibly deter small shops as well as bigger retailers from carrying them or carrying decent stock.  Why carry a new skate that you might have to bake multiple times before moving it off the shelf or have it sit there indefinitely?

Not out of loyalty but strictly economics.  Money in versus money out.  Stores' goals are to stock what sells and then replenish and not tie up money on inventory that doesn't move.  Bauer and CCM own the retail market share when it comes to skates and I don't see that changing anytime soon.  Might be the reason why Warrior has done everything BUT skates.

Especially when Warrior’s parent is shoes first and foremost.

 

[Miller55 327]

2 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

If you are trying on 2-3 pairs of Trues that is 2-3 bakes and molding just to compare sizes or models (if you were thinking 7s vs. 9s).  That's a lot of time and money for the store so I can see how it can be both an advantage (you really know how it is going to fit before making your decision) and a disadvantage (time and money).

The same issue existed with the Nexus line from Bauer. I don't see this as a reason not to sell a product, just because you will actually have to do a bit of work.

Maybe it's just me, but in my experience there are shops that want to help you find a pair of skates that fit. For them, it's not a deterrent. And there are shops that couldn't give a crap, and for them even trying on a second pair of skates is an inconvenience and the customer can tell.

It's a 6 minute bake, which can be done 3 minutes apart. If the store is that busy they can line a few folks up or set up times for True "retail fittings" and just run an oven the whole time. Get creative, it's not a major issue in my eyes. 

My point is that if you're a hockey shop that can easily sell a good product and you're going to hem and haw about having to bake the skates to fit them then that's ridiculous. I'd venture to guess that the large majority of educated consumers on this board do not frequent such shops.

It's an easy sale in my eyes. Go tell some guy that he can get a great fit in these skates and they're very moldable and if he fits retail skates then these are a custom quality fit in a retail skate. I think that customers would love it and eat it up. If you run a business then why wouldn't you sell a product that is easy to hype, just because it takes a few extra minutes of your time? You can make happy customers. What's better for business than happy customers? Having an extra 6 minute to yourself to check mod squad on your iPhone?

[VegasHockey 1256]

2 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

If you are trying on 2-3 pairs of Trues that is 2-3 bakes and molding just to compare sizes or models (if you were thinking 7s vs. 9s).  That's a lot of time and money for the store so I can see how it can be both an advantage (you really know how it is going to fit before making your decision) and a disadvantage (time and money).

 

2 hours ago, Miller55 said:

Not sure why baking the skate is such a big deal? I think the opposite is true. Baking the skate will give the best fit and the best chance of selling the skate, whereas not baking it will pretty much guarantee you won't sell it. 

I'd like to believe it's purely economics, but I was explicitly told otherwise. I've heard from multiple owners that they would like to carry them and think they would sell, but don't want to hurt their Bauer relationship. I heard from one manger that their Bauer rep "strongly encouraged them" not to stock True retail. That's a direct quote.

I think the True skates are a good product with an excellent value proposition and Bauer is definitely threatened and they're doing what they can to keep their business. Not saying they're doing anything wrong, it's business. But I've definitely seen this story more than once with Bauer. And it has more to do with keeping their bloated margins than anything else. They own the retail market and want to keep it. Some might call it playing cheap, others can call it using your leverage. Everyone is entitled to their view. Mine is that Bauer cares more about money than hockey. Not a crime, but not something I care to support.

I haven't gotten a pair of True retails to try on yet, but I am getting a check tomorrow... if the finish and fit are good, I'm willing to gamble on the durability of the initial release, although typically I'd wait for the first batch to go and the kinks to be resolved, but I'm interested enough. 

I recently have been considering implementing a fitting fee which would then be applied to the cost of purchasing a pair of skates. Too many people come in to get fit and then go online and buy used skates or pro stock return from other sources. I normally wouldn't complain about our stores doing a fitting or even baking skates for a customer but since we are down 300% in sales this year I can't keep offering services like that for free. Gone are the days where I could replace rivets or eyelets for customers free of charge. 😞 

[Miller55 327]

29 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

 

I recently have been considering implementing a fitting fee which would then be applied to the cost of purchasing a pair of skates. Too many people come in to get fit and then go online and buy used skates or pro stock return from other sources. I normally wouldn't complain about our stores doing a fitting or even baking skates for a customer but since we are down 300% in sales this year I can't keep offering services like that for free. Gone are the days where I could replace rivets or eyelets for customers free of charge. 😞 

Definitely. I know it's not what you're referring to, but even if shops did that for the TFs I think that's better than the alternatives of just not selling them out selling them without fitting them properly.

[mojo122 529]

42 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

The same issue existed with the Nexus line from Bauer. I don't see this as a reason not to sell a product, just because you will actually have to do a bit of work.

Having to work has nothing to do with it.  My point is you cannot take the same skate and continuously bake it over and over again until someone finally buys it.  There's a point when you'll damage the material and it will break down.  

Don't want to take this thread off track but the majority of folks can try on unbaked new skates and determine which one fits and feels better.  Then the molding process makes it fit better and more comfortable.

[calixguy18 8]

16 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Wonder if there's something in the paperwork saying this much at least. That the skate must be baked for proper fit. 

I find big box stores are generally pretty bad with true in general, even at the custom level. 

Yep, there's a piece of paper with baking instructions and at the top it says "IMPORTANT: Now that you have purchased your skates, it is very important to heat mould them before use..."

[BenBreeg 488]

1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

The same issue existed with the Nexus line from Bauer. I don't see this as a reason not to sell a product, just because you will actually have to do a bit of work.

Maybe it's just me, but in my experience there are shops that want to help you find a pair of skates that fit. For them, it's not a deterrent. And there are shops that couldn't give a crap, and for them even trying on a second pair of skates is an inconvenience and the customer can tell.

It's a 6 minute bake, which can be done 3 minutes apart. If the store is that busy they can line a few folks up or set up times for True "retail fittings" and just run an oven the whole time. Get creative, it's not a major issue in my eyes. 

My point is that if you're a hockey shop that can easily sell a good product and you're going to hem and haw about having to bake the skates to fit them then that's ridiculous. I'd venture to guess that the large majority of educated consumers on this board do not frequent such shops.

It's an easy sale in my eyes. Go tell some guy that he can get a great fit in these skates and they're very moldable and if he fits retail skates then these are a custom quality fit in a retail skate. I think that customers would love it and eat it up. If you run a business then why wouldn't you sell a product that is easy to hype, just because it takes a few extra minutes of your time? You can make happy customers. What's better for business than happy customers? Having an extra 6 minute to yourself to check mod squad on your iPhone?

You absolutely must account for the effort and cost of a sale.  Your calculus may tell you that the extra service will be more profitable in the long run, others may not.  

[IPv6Freely 2082]

1 hour ago, mojo122 said:

Having to work has nothing to do with it.  My point is you cannot take the same skate and continuously bake it over and over again until someone finally buys it.  There's a point when you'll damage the material and it will break down.  

Don't want to take this thread off track but the majority of folks can try on unbaked new skates and determine which one fits and feels better.  Then the molding process makes it fit better and more comfortable.

I feel like this is something that should be put on True. Once a skate is baked X number of times (to be determined by True), the item should be sent back just like any warranty return. I don't know the logistics of it, but it could be worked out. 

I recall this was a problem with the Mako as well. Retailers not willing to bake them during a fitting. I personally couldn't even get Makos on my feet without baking so they would have lost a sale there for sure.

[Miller55 327]

1 hour ago, BenBreeg said:

You absolutely must account for the effort and cost of a sale.  Your calculus may tell you that the extra service will be more profitable in the long run, others may not.  

Agreed. My point is just that these aren't problems without solutions. If anybody wanted to make it work, it could and I think it would definitely be worthwhile. That's in a vacuum. Add in the pressure from other companies to suppress True retails and your dealing with a different animal.

 

1 hour ago, mojo122 said:

 

Don't want to take this thread off track but the majority of folks can try on unbaked new skates and determine which one fits and feels better.  Then the molding process makes it fit better and more comfortable.

Depends on the skate...

 

8 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

I feel like this is something that should be put on True. Once a skate is baked X number of times (to be determined by True), the item should be sent back just like any warranty return. I don't know the logistics of it, but it could be worked out. 

I recall this was a problem with the Mako as well. Retailers not willing to bake them during a fitting. I personally couldn't even get Makos on my feet without baking so they would have lost a sale there for sure.

Exactly. There's plenty of things that could be done. True could offer x number of demo fit models per order etc.

[mojo122 529]

1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

Exactly. There's plenty of things that could be done. True could offer x number of demo fit models per order etc.

From a business perspective that would be cost prohibitive. 

[Buzz_LightBeer 960]

10 minutes ago, mojo122 said:

From a business perspective that would be cost prohibitive. 

That used to be commonplace practice with CCM and Easton, and wasn’t cost prohibitive at all. On toP end skates I should say

[mojo122 529]

Sorry, I don't recall CCM or Easton offering fit stock demos to retailers.  If True has deep pockets and can afford it within their business model then good for them.

[Miller55 327]

42 minutes ago, mojo122 said:

Sorry, I don't recall CCM or Easton offering fit stock demos to retailers.  If True has deep pockets and can afford it within their business model then good for them.

Easton always used to have demo skates available to retailers. I'm sure there was some qualification, ie the stores had to do a certain amount in Easton sales. Also, my point wasn't that that's how they have to do it, I was just trying to illustrate the possibilities. It's easy to sit on a MB and say it's too cost prohibitive, but what are you basing that on? By the same token, it's easy for me to say that it's possible and they just need to figure something out. None of us crunched any numbers, so none of us can say for sure. 

But the bottom line is that Trues have to be baked to fit right, and True is responsible to make sure that happens. The odds are stacked against them in retail, so they need to do whatever they can to grab a share of the market. Bauer's doing what they can to prevent that. But True needs to do what they can, which means they have to get the info and opportunity out there. If they don't, people will end up buying the wrong sizes and the skate will suck and that's the end of True retail. So yeah, it might cut the margins to offer demo try on skates and institute some sort of fitting oversight, but if they don't do it the skate is basically doomed.

[VegasHockey 1256]

26 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

Easton always used to have demo skates available to retailers. I'm sure there was some qualification, ie the stores had to do a certain amount in Easton sales. Also, my point wasn't that that's how they have to do it, I was just trying to illustrate the possibilities. It's easy to sit on a MB and say it's too cost prohibitive, but what are you basing that on? By the same token, it's easy for me to say that it's possible and they just need to figure something out. None of us crunched any numbers, so none of us can say for sure. 

But the bottom line is that Trues have to be baked to fit right, and True is responsible to make sure that happens. The odds are stacked against them in retail, so they need to do whatever they can to grab a share of the market. Bauer's doing what they can to prevent that. But True needs to do what they can, which means they have to get the info and opportunity out there. If they don't, people will end up buying the wrong sizes and the skate will suck and that's the end of True retail. So yeah, it might cut the margins to offer demo try on skates and institute some sort of fitting oversight, but if they don't do it the skate is basically doomed.

So you want TRUE to offer top tier skate at half the cost of the other guys and also provide stores demo skates as well? Anything else to add to your Christmas wish list? How about free demo sticks and free demo gear too?

[Miller55 327]

36 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

So you want TRUE to offer top tier skate at half the cost of the other guys and also provide stores demo skates as well? Anything else to add to your Christmas wish list? How about free demo sticks and free demo gear too?

I could care less, honestly. I'm not saying it because I want them to do it. I know enough to get them baked before purchasing. It's about True being able to guarantee that customers get the best fit that they can. Ultimately that's what they're offering to compete with the big boys, a better fit. Well, if they don't see to it that customers have the skates baked and that shops know how to fit them properly then people aren't going to get a good fit from these. If they don't get a good fit then True is done for, even though they're discounted etc. I'm not saying they have to or that I expect it or want it, just that they're gonna have a hard time beating Mako sales without some sort of solution to the fact that their skates fit completely differently before vs. after baking... For True to just put out a skate and hope that shops figure out how to fit it well it's pretty sad if they think they're going to make a dent in the retail market.

Again, I'm rooting for them, I think it's a great thing and I would love to see them succeed. In my mind they definitely have to find some way to control the fit process though. I'm not just bring a spoiled baby about this (at least I don't think I am) but I'm just pointing out that I think they can and they must find some way to make sure people get fit for these properly. 

I'm hoping they work for me too, and if they do I plan on putting my money where my mouth is. My only real concern is right ankle injuries and these might not be the boots for me, but who knows.

[marka 518]

Howdy,

So, for you guys using/fitting these things... Are you finding that @Hills is right and they fit a half size bigger than "normal"?  I.e. that if you wear an 8.5 commonly, you want an 8 in the retail Trues?

Mark

[Sniper9 517]

To avoid having to bake a number of diff skates for consumers to try on, the shop should be trained and educated as much as possible in sizing up the customer to the point where they know what length and width the customer needs. If that's done the chances of the skates not fitting or feeling right is drastically reduced. It's not different than sizing up any other retail brand. The only diff is with trues you need to tell the customer it's going to feel ten times better baked. Trues price point is also at a level where I think most people would risk trying them out. 

End of the day were wasting too much time here talking about whether their retail skates will flourish or not. Why don't we leave that problem to true, and keep this thread more educational for people interested in the skates. 

[Miller55 327]

1 hour ago, marka said:

Howdy,

So, for you guys using/fitting these things... Are you finding that @Hills is right and they fit a half size bigger than "normal"?  I.e. that if you wear an 8.5 commonly, you want an 8 in the retail Trues?

Mark

Haven't had a chance to try the Trues, but I watched his review and my concern was that he was saying that the 9s were a half size below CCM tacks. I find CCM to run a bit bigger than Bauer, where I'm really a 9.25, but I usually wear a 9.5 because 9 hurts my toes. In CCM tacks I'm a 9 and only my big toe barely feathers the toe cap, so I could probably do 8.75 even. So if True TFs are a half size down from CCM I could probably do 8.5. I guess I'll see if I get a chance to try them on on Sunday

[gosinger 122]

3 hours ago, marka said:

So, for you guys using/fitting these things... Are you finding that @Hills is right and they fit a half size bigger than "normal"?  I.e. that if you wear an 8.5 commonly, you want an 8 in the retail Trues?

So for me it turned out similar, after baking I could probably go down one half size compared to my Vapor 1X to have my toes feather the cap in a similar manner. Haven't compared footbeds.

[IPv6Freely 2082]

6 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

So you want TRUE to offer top tier skate at half the cost of the other guys and also provide stores demo skates as well? Anything else to add to your Christmas wish list? How about free demo sticks and free demo gear too?

WHOOSH

[Mario123 2]

Do you think baking the Trues will help that much? I recently tried on a pair of TF9’s, and out of the box, I wasn’t impressed at all. 
The shop I was at would not let me bake them, without buying them...

I am intrigued by the Trues, but don’t want to drop 7 bills plus tax on skates, and not have them fit properly/well.