Skate Fit

[2nhockey 21]

I have no LHS. The nearest one is about 5-6 hours away and they only carry Bauer and CCM. 

Right now I am in Bauer Supreme S180’s in a 10. Aside from lace bite (cured with extensions), and me needing a size 9.75 the skates are reasonably comfortable. I’m doing quite a bit of reffing now and I’ve noticed after some of the faster games the balls of my feet hurt, like they’ve been bruised. Also, after 2 games the skates start to hurt. After 3 my feet and ankles hurt. After 4 games the foot pain is nearly debilitating and then my tolerance for the skates for the next day’s games is very low! I will spend the better part of the next week healing up so I can walk normally, just in time to skate again the following weekend. 
 

I have heard Graf skates are the way to go for reffing. I’m considering a switch to try and stop the foot pain on those days I have 3+ games (I had 9 games last weekend).

Is the fit of a Graf 755 going to be close enough to my S180’s that I could order online? What about my steel? Currently on a 9’ radius at +3. Will the Graf holder and steel be close to that?

Appreciate any guidance here. Thanks!

[start_today 757]

You know your feet best, but I’m gonna prod a bit and ask if the skates truly are “reasonably comfortable?”

Having to rehab all week to be able to skate on the weekend seems like something isn’t right. Nine games over a weekend is a lot, but skates shouldn’t so hard on your feet that you can’t walk. 

Are you able to find a place with free returns and order a boatload of skates to try on? 

And, if you don’t mind me asking, where do you live that can support needing a ref for 9 games on a weekend, but doesn’t have a hockey store within 5 hours? Not doubting you, just curious. 

[chippa13 1844]

It could be a matter of tweaking the profile, +3 sounds aggressive for reffing a lot of games.

[2nhockey 21]

I wondered if the profile might be the problem. I like it for playing, though. 
 

I’m in western South Dakota. 
 

i can walk - it’s just tender. Feels like bruising...? The skates are far more comfortable than the CCM skates I came from! 

[Vet88 673]

14 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

I’ve noticed after some of the faster games the balls of my feet hurt, like they’ve been bruised.

Do you pronate at all? Pronation can impact on different areas of the foot and one of those areas is the ball of the foot and with a +3 pitch it places even more pressure there. As the foot rotates in the boot, the ball of the foot becomes the main loading point against the sole of the boot. For a quick fix you can try a gel pad under the footbed and check the tops of the rivets in that area, with a little bit of rust and excessive pressure in that area the fingers on the rivet can become raised up and these pound away at the foot. I've seen instances where they have punched thru a superfoot insole and lacerated the bottom of a players foot.

[flip12 698]

Grafs tend to fit a bit smaller so you may be 10.25-10.5 in those. Definitely vote for a place with free returns so you can get the approximate size range and keep the right pair.

Their boots and holders have a bit more pitch to them compared to most other stock offerings. I think it’s equivalent to +2, iirc? Their stock radius used to be 11’, which I personally love. I find it to be a great match for their forward pitch. Recently they’ve made some moves to make their skates less aggressive in both boot height and radius, so the boots are roughly the same height as Vapors and the stock radius is 10’.

[2nhockey 21]

Appreciate the help. 
 

yes, I pronate some. Not sure how bad it is and never knew I did it until I went to a runner shop for new tennis shoes and the guy there observed my gait and told me I pronate. The rivets on my skate are good. I played beer league last night and I pull my insoles after every skate and have a look. So perhaps going to a +2 is a start? What about the radius? Currently on a 9’. Is that too sharp?

how about Graf width? Is the 755 going to fit like a Supreme? Or is it more Vapor? And you think Grafs will fit nearly a full size larger than Bauer?

thanks again!

[krisdrum 223]

755 should fit more like a Supreme than a Vapor.  I believe that replaced the classic 735/535/335 series, which was pretty much a medium volume/medium width skate.  In my experience Grafs fit a tiny bit shorter than Bauers of the same size.  I was previously in size 5 Vapors.  Now in size 5 Grafs and my toes are a bit more squished into the toe cap before I lace up and bend my knees.  Once tight, no issues.  So if your Bauers feel a bit too long (you said you might like 9.75), I'd probably stick with a size 10 in the Grafs. 

[mtn 20]

I referee.

I'm currently in CCMs, Jetspeeds, but have been in Grafs for most of my reffing career (14 years) and am actively looking to go back to them. On marathon days, I'll actually use 2 pairs of skates - my CCMs are good, but not quite the right fit, a little too tight. I'll wear them in the morning, then switch to the Grafs in the afternoon. Keeps the boot from getting soaked in sweat, and while it could be mental, my foot feels better than being in the same skate all day.

I cannot tell you how they will fit compared to Bauer, but I can say that traditionally Graf has been 11' Radius, and pitched forward. +2 from the CCM holder is what I got, and it feels the same as my Graf's. Graf now uses a 10' radius, at least on the Peakspeed line, to be more in line with Bauer and CCM. If I get new Grafs, I will get them profiled to 11'. 

I recommend trying an 11' radius (or 10', if you think going from 9' will be too big a change). I find you're more stable, and using less energy to balance yourself during the game. It'll take a bit to get used to. Acceleration will be harder, and you may lose a little bit of agility initially, but use proper positioning and it is rarely if ever an issue. 

 

EDIT: One other comment, try a shallower hollow than you do to play in. 5/8 minimum, but 11/16 or 3/4 should be considered as well. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by mtn

[2nhockey 21]

Great help!

so then the question is on radius. My hollow is currently set to 5/8. What will I gain/lose by going to an 11’ radius? I know what will happen if I change the hollow but don’t know what happens if I change the radius. 

I like the idea of two different pairs of skates. I don’t know how switching intraday from a Supreme to a 755 or PK will go but I’m open to trying. 

[mtn 20]

57 minutes ago, 2nhockey said:

Great help!

so then the question is on radius. My hollow is currently set to 5/8. What will I gain/lose by going to an 11’ radius? I know what will happen if I change the hollow but don’t know what happens if I change the radius. 

I like the idea of two different pairs of skates. I don’t know how switching intraday from a Supreme to a 755 or PK will go but I’m open to trying. 

Going from 9' to 11', you'll initially feel like your skates are fighting you any time you try to accelerate or turn. But you'll also feel much more stable, your top speed is faster, and it is less fatiguing to skate with a larger profile - you don't have to dig in as much, there is more blade in contact with the ice so you glide better. 

Nowadays folks are doing quad profiles and everything, but I've found no reason to try them. If I did I would try the Quad 0.5. 

 

As for switching skates mid day, if you get the profile and pitch close enough between the two, you won't have any issue if you're a decent skater. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by mtn

[flip12 698]

1 hour ago, 2nhockey said:

Great help!

so then the question is on radius. My hollow is currently set to 5/8. What will I gain/lose by going to an 11’ radius? I know what will happen if I change the hollow but don’t know what happens if I change the radius. 

I like the idea of two different pairs of skates. I don’t know how switching intraday from a Supreme to a 755 or PK will go but I’m open to trying. 

If you really like a 9' profile, 11' might feel weird. I had Vapor 8s before my first Grafs (705s) and there's no way I would go back to the Vapor boots after going Graf, but it took me a while to get used to the 11' profile. One day when I did though, it was like I had found a cheat code for skating. It just worked with my mechanics in a way I didn't know possible. A lot of people (probably used to 9' and 10') think it feels flat and sunk in, like you're skating on rails. I feel like the 11' is still nicely curved. I feel more in control on turns and accelerations, where a 9' or 10' feels like I'm a duck paddling my way through water and I feel like an penguin on an 11'. You'll probably love it or hate it.

Because more blade is in contact with the ice, you'll dig in more if you stay with the same hollow as you use on a 9'.

[caveman27 208]

On 1/24/2021 at 12:27 AM, 2nhockey said:

I wondered if the profile might be the problem. I like it for playing, though. 

I’m in western South Dakota. 

i can walk - it’s just tender. Feels like bruising...? The skates are far more comfortable than the CCM skates I came from! 

Just curious. What is the width of your current S180 skates?

What model CCMs did you have, what was the size and width?

What is your street shoe size, do you wear D, E, or EEE width shoes?

[mtn 20]

More thoughts on foot and ankle pain: 

• How much do you weigh? If you're significantly overweight, that could do it.
• Is this amount of skating new to you? Meaning, did you just go from 0-100 without any buildup?
• Have you skated this much in years past and experienced this?

[2nhockey 21]

My S180’s are D width. The CCM’s were 46K’s (pump) in a 10 D that I had punched around the balls of my feet on either side of both skates and punched by my little toe just before the toe cap on both skates. Regular street shoe size is a 12.5 EE (Brooks Addiction running shoes). Since tennis shoes in EE are rare, and even more rare is half sizes over 12 my regular shoes are 12.0. I have 2 pairs of Rockports for work. Both 12’s, one is D and the other is EE. The EE is more comfortable and on the D’s you can see my feet are trying to bust out the sides. Neither is painful. 

the amount of skating is new but there’s been a build up over time. 
 

one thing mentioned on the radius is the fatigue. About my 2nd or 3rd game of the day I notice that while standing during warmups I feel a lot of fatigue in my hips. Wondering if the radius will change that?

[chippa13 1844]

The aggressive pitch is what is causing the hip issue as the games wear on. 

[2nhockey 21]

I had business on the other side of the state yesterday that brought me to within 30 minutes of the hockey shop so I stopped in and found some Graf PK1900 and 3900 to try on. The 1900’s felt absolutely terrible. The 3900’s felt kind of ok. Completely different skate than the 1900. I couldn’t even see how they were related.

The 3900’s just didn’t have enough volume. My feet felt like they were busting out of the skate. Pencil test failed from 2nd eyelet down all the way to about 3rd eyelet from the bottom. Second was arch pain immediately behind my arches. 

Do 755’s have more volume?

will changing insoles solve the arch pain (burning)?

thanks!

[flip12 698]

4 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

I had business on the other side of the state yesterday that brought me to within 30 minutes of the hockey shop so I stopped in and found some Graf PK1900 and 3900 to try on. The 1900’s felt absolutely terrible. The 3900’s felt kind of ok. Completely different skate than the 1900. I couldn’t even see how they were related.

The 3900’s just didn’t have enough volume. My feet felt like they were busting out of the skate. Pencil test failed from 2nd eyelet down all the way to about 3rd eyelet from the bottom. Second was arch pain immediately behind my arches. 

Do 755’s have more volume?

will changing insoles solve the arch pain (burning)?

thanks!

I'm not entirely sure how the pricing compares, and I know price can be a sensitive issue, but for the amount of skating it sounds you do, you would be best to invest in a higher end boot. Definitely finding the right fit will help, whether it's Graf or another brand, but I would avoid the lower end Graf boots, as my experience is they have had issues with drastic quality drop off below the top of the line. As it sounds like your foot is a bit deeper than ideal for the PeakSpeed line, you might want to look elsewhere.

The RibCor line has similar plush fit qualities and even though they're represented as CCM's low profile boot a lot of people experience them to be very deep. That might be worth a shot. True TF9s (about the same price as Graf 755s from a quick online search) might not be deep enough, but with their wrap and support, you might be able to fit into them comfortably. Their toe box is very anatomical, which sounds like it could be a start in relieving some of the comfort issues you've had in the past. I'm not 100% sure about the new True TF shells, but the fully custom ones were moldable on the arch as well as the quarters, so if your arch is an issue, you could potentially address that.

The most important point here, I think, is how unique everyone's feet are. Just because I have a historical penchant for Graf and now True skates, doesn't mean they're necessarily right for you, or anyone at random for that matter. Grafs used to be go to skates for refs, but other companies have learned a lot of the tricks that put Graf ahead in the 90's and Graf hasn't done the same quick enough in keeping up with market trends. As much as you use your skates and you probably make some income even on your time spent on the ice, I would definitely prioritize a boot that's the right fit and going to withstand the intense use you're subjecting them to.

One way to get around being so far from many shops could be to get your feet scanned, so you have an idea of how they compare to what fits are offered at retail currently. Then maybe order several skates that best fit that description and return the ones that don't work. It's best to start fresh, with an open mind, as it sounds like you're still hunting for your go to skate make and model. Don't limit yourself by what you think you might need, as you might easily miss a much better solution if you're too keen on something before giving the search a proper go.

Edited January 30, 2021 by flip12
Wrong True model quote; forgot how cheap they are.

[althoma1 574]

Grafs are the historical choice for referees because they were primarily black and looked professional. It doesn't mean they're the most comfortable skate for you or your feet. It doesn't hurt to try them on, but you shouldn't fixate on Grafs and should try on and consider as many brands and models as possible if you do have to buy new skates. The other solutions mentioned like profiling and using gel pads may allow you to keep using the same skates.

Quite a few refs in my area that skate a lot have moved to True skates; even some of the older officials who came up using Grafs. Some have gone the custom route and others have bought barely used pairs that are a close enough fit and then have them baked to fit their feet. The ones who used to have pain issues say they're much more comfortable after switching to True skates. Obviously the ones who went the custom route should have comfortable skates as they were built for their feet, but even the ones who bought "close enough" barely used models have been happy. That's likely due to how malleable they are after a proper bake. COVID was upon us before the retail Trues came out so I don't know any refs who have switched to those, but I have tried them on and the TF9s flip12 mentioned felt pretty good even without baking, but fit a half to a full size longer than other brands in the same size (so you might have to go down to a 9 in those if they fit your feet well).

Icewarehouse offers free return shipping on skates for the lower 48 states in the US, plus True is offering a 30 day satisfaction guarantee for purchases made before Jan 31 at participating retailers (IW is participating). So you could potentially order TF9s to try with little risk (even a few pairs to dial in the sizing without having to make a long road trip). If they're the wrong size, you just send them back with the prepaid label without sharpening or using them. If they're the right size and you bake them, sharpen them and try them and they don't solve the pain then you could still return them for a refund within 30 days. https://www.icewarehouse.com/True_TF9/descpage-TF9SK.html. They do make a cheaper option with the TF7s that you could also try if the TF9s are more than your budget allows right now. 

I might have taken advantage of the TF9 30 day trial myself, but there's no hockey going on and only 45 minute pleasure skating outdoors booked online in advance allowed; so it wouldn't be a great time to test them and I wouldn't have been able to make extra money officiating to pay for them if they worked well. Plus, I still have two pairs of Mako II's waiting in my closet. Once my Mako II stockpile is depleted, I'll try on everything I can, but right now I'd lean toward the TF9s. If something fits me better at the time, I'm certainly open to it though. 

 

[epstud74 24]

I went from the Graf Ultra G70 to the Ribcor skates without any issues.  I have a high arch/instep and there’s no lace bite.  I should be able to skate all day with good insoles, very comfortable skate. The asked guy knew I was coming from a Graf skate and felt the lean and fit was best suited for me.