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bvictor

Skate profiling, and why would it help me?

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9 hours ago, bvictor said:

It's actually the opposite - I think it's pushing me too far forward on my toes and I have to really feel like I'm leaning back to be able to catch my outside edges properly.  Do you think that is possible to correct with Vapors, without profiling them?

Since you're not to far along in your skating, it's probably better to try and see if you can figure it out without profiling first before you start dropping money on profiles. 8 months is not that long to be skating. 

For what it's worth, I have issues with getting up on my toes too much. For me, it's a combination of bad habits and small feet. I'm a size 4.5 and I'm a full grown adult. It took me like 2 years of gradual tweaks to find my way to my current profile, a 13/26 with a -1 pitch. Very few people use negative pitches. During practise I generally don't have issues. I can use a standard profile and be fine doing things, but during the course of a game, at game speed and when I get tired, the 40+ years of bad habits rear their ugly head, and I can end up on my toes too much. The negative pitch helps settle me down, so I can get a full proper stride instead of choppy ones. 

Again, in this instance, it's probably better to work on yourself a bit more before you jump into the deep end. And IMHO, it's probably better to do a bunch of incremental changes rather than jump head long into something like a quad profile. The quad changes a bunch of variables at once, and if it doesn't work, it's tougher to figure out what your next move is, but if you only change one thing, it's easier to diagnose if its a positive change or not. Yes it can end up being expensive, but it's a sure and steady path narrowing in on what's right for you rather than one where you're taking a bunch random shots in the dark hopping to hit a bullseye.

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6 hours ago, puckpilot said:

Since you're not to far along in your skating, it's probably better to try and see if you can figure it out without profiling first before you start dropping money on profiles. 8 months is not that long to be skating. 

For what it's worth, I have issues with getting up on my toes too much. For me, it's a combination of bad habits and small feet. I'm a size 4.5 and I'm a full grown adult. It took me like 2 years of gradual tweaks to find my way to my current profile, a 13/26 with a -1 pitch. Very few people use negative pitches. During practise I generally don't have issues. I can use a standard profile and be fine doing things, but during the course of a game, at game speed and when I get tired, the 40+ years of bad habits rear their ugly head, and I can end up on my toes too much. The negative pitch helps settle me down, so I can get a full proper stride instead of choppy ones. 

Again, in this instance, it's probably better to work on yourself a bit more before you jump into the deep end. And IMHO, it's probably better to do a bunch of incremental changes rather than jump head long into something like a quad profile. The quad changes a bunch of variables at once, and if it doesn't work, it's tougher to figure out what your next move is, but if you only change one thing, it's easier to diagnose if its a positive change or not. Yes it can end up being expensive, but it's a sure and steady path narrowing in on what's right for you rather than one where you're taking a bunch random shots in the dark hopping to hit a bullseye.

For beginner skaters, profiling is one of the best things to invest money into. The stability a new skater can get going from a standard 10' -> 12' and optimizing the balance point can allow them to focus on their edge work instead of worrying about balance. 

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10 minutes ago, PBH said:

For beginner skaters, profiling is one of the best things to invest money into. The stability a new skater can get going from a standard 10' -> 12' and optimizing the balance point can allow them to focus on their edge work instead of worrying about balance. 

If you're discussing where the best starting point for a beginner in terms of profile is, I'd tend to agree that a flatter profile would probably be a better starting point.It  But in terms of expecting profiling to fix issues,  or if its a good idea to go to something like a quad right off the bat, that I don't think is a good idea at all.

IMHO, regardless of profile, it's better for a beginner try to try to fix their technique first before looking for help in profiling. Because everyone is different with different needs, so it's better to figure out what your own personal needs are before getting into profiling. Just jumping at what ever is generically recommended may or may not work just as a stock profile on a skate may or may not work. It's just a starting point. A person may start with a 13' profile and find that a 10' profile works best for them, or the reverse may be true. A person who starts with a 10' may find that a 13' works best for them. And the best way, IMHO, to start figuring that out is to work on yourself first, and after a while, if it's not working, then look towards profiling to give you a boost.

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7 hours ago, puckpilot said:

But in terms of expecting profiling to fix issues,  or if its a good idea to go to something like a quad right off the bat, that I don't think is a good idea at all.

IMHO, regardless of profile, it's better for a beginner try to try to fix their technique first before looking for help in profiling.

I couldn't agree more.  IMHO it's a terrible idea to put a beginner on a quad.  I've been playing for 45 years and consider myself a very strong skater.  The first time I tried a quad I could not do crossovers at low speed, I would literally almost fall down.

Im also confused by the blanket claim that quads are better for agility.  The fact is that proper technique for a very tight pivot is using the rear part of the blade, so if you've got a 20'+ radius on that part of the blade it's working against you.

Edited by boo10
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I just recently went down the rabbit hole called skate profiling and started off with a 9.5/10.5 profile. My LHS felt it would be a good starting point and they were correct. Only adjustment I needed was I had to go back and drop my radius of hollow from my normal 5/8 that I used for years to 11/16. Now they are perfect, I'll never go back to non-profiled steel. 

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14 hours ago, boo10 said:

I couldn't agree more.  IMHO it's a terrible idea to put a beginner on a quad.  I've been playing for 45 years and consider myself a very strong skater.  The first time I tried a quad I could not do crossovers at low speed, I would literally almost fall down.

Im also confused by the blanket claim that quads are better for agility.  The fact is that proper technique for a very tight pivot is using the rear part of the blade, so if you've got a 20'+ radius on that part of the blade it's working against you.

No Quad profile has a 20'+ radius in it but I'm not here to defend the Quad profiles cause you might have a point.

I do like the 0.5 Quad thou so let me explain why I think it is different than all the other Quads.  I think of the 0.5 Quad as half as dramatic as an average Quad profile.  For example a 8-10-12-14(0.5 Quad) is not as dramatic as a 6-9-12-15 (QUAD 1).  I would have no problem recommending it to anyone at any skill level.  Just remember to drop the sharpen because you are going to have a little more steel on the ice.  I think you would like it also.

 

Edited by Beflar

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9 hours ago, Beflar said:

No Quad profile has a 20'+ radius in it but I'm not here to defend the Quad profiles cause you might have a point.

You're correct.  I was thinking of the Zuperior triples, which have a 20' radius on the rear.

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On 7/23/2021 at 4:11 PM, boo10 said:

I couldn't agree more.  IMHO it's a terrible idea to put a beginner on a quad.  I've been playing for 45 years and consider myself a very strong skater.  The first time I tried a quad I could not do crossovers at low speed, I would literally almost fall down.

Maybe you didn´t choose the right Quad for your runner-lenght, or a Quad is not suitable for your setup/skating style. Depends on which profile/pitch you are coming from and what you want to achieve. The Quad seems to be more focused on agility and acceleration, the Zuperior on stability and speed and the Ellipse seems to be somewhere between those two.

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51 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Maybe you didn´t choose the right Quad for your runner-lenght, or a Quad is not suitable for your setup/skating style. Depends on which profile/pitch you are coming from and what you want to achieve. The Quad seems to be more focused on agility and acceleration, the Zuperior on stability and speed and the Ellipse seems to be somewhere between those two.

I'm not saying quads are bad, I'm saying they're bad for beginners.  I firmly believe that beginners should learn on a single 9' or 10' radius, (9.5'-10.5' dual is ok too).  Once they have mastered the basics, they can then try more complex profiles.  I don't like longer singles like a 13' for beginners either, because I think it's too much of a crutch and hinders muscle development.

In my opinion, asking someone to learn to skate on a quad is like asking a new driver to learn in an 18 wheeler.

Edited by boo10
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59 minutes ago, boo10 said:

I'm not saying quads are bad, I'm saying they're bad for beginners.  I firmly believe that beginners should learn on a single 9' or 10' radius, (9.5'-10.5' dual is ok too).  Once they have mastered the basics, they can then try more complex profiles.  I don't like longer singles like a 13' for beginners either, because I think it's too much of a crutch and hinders muscle development.

If you had limited me as a late adult beginner with handicaps(never before done skating or sports, overweight, over 50 years old) to a 10' radius with a 1/2' hollow, I would have given up my 'hockey career' after a few weeks.

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On 7/23/2021 at 2:14 AM, PBH said:

For beginner skaters, profiling is one of the best things to invest money into. The stability a new skater can get going from a standard 10' -> 12' and optimizing the balance point can allow them to focus on their edge work instead of worrying about balance. 

I would have to disagree with going with a larger radius on a profile. A beginner needs to make c-cuts and perform swizzles. A larger profile is going to make that harder to do. Learning to stop with a larger radius is also more difficult. Higher-level skaters already have balance and strength to initiate turns and stops with larger radius blades.

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5 hours ago, caveman27 said:

I would have to disagree with going with a larger radius on a profile. A beginner needs to make c-cuts and perform swizzles. A larger profile is going to make that harder to do. Learning to stop with a larger radius is also more difficult. Higher-level skaters already have balance and strength to initiate turns and stops with larger radius blades.

The longer radius is used with beginners and young players to help them keep balance and focus on skating posture. Developing a proper skating posture should be the primary end goal when first learning how to skate properly. 

I think ProSharp has a document somewhere that discusses this. 

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I don't understand how putting new hockey players on a larger single profile would be better in any way over using something like a larger dual profile.  For example I started on a 13' single profile but I can't help feel that I would have learned the game a lot faster on something like a 11'-13' dual profile.

Having more steel at the back of the skate just feels "more natural" and biomechanically sound.   

I don't understand the logic of using a single profile anymore other than tradition.

Edited by Beflar

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Its all opinion.  Thousands of top level skaters in history started on whatever random shape the blade came out of the box, continued with whatever shape it morphed into through repeated sharpenings, and then back to another random profile when they got new skates.  
 

What may seem intuitive may in fact be correct or it may end up being wrong.  There are lots of examples where people have success doing the opposite of “conventional wisdom”.

Until you have a body of actual data, it will continue to be opinion-based.

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This is a bit of an aside... but I figured I'd ask it here.

I just got a pair of blades (BladeTech to be specific) and got them profiled in a Quad 1 like normal but due to some miscommunication the profiler rounded off the toe even more than normal. First skate was terrible with them and I felt like I had 0 blade to work with in the forward portion of my skate.

Am I basically stuck grinding them down first to go back to a normal Quad 1 to get them how I like them? I don't TOTALLY mind since they were free, but it is still slightly annoying.

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11 minutes ago, Hills said:

This is a bit of an aside... but I figured I'd ask it here.

I just got a pair of blades (BladeTech to be specific) and got them profiled in a Quad 1 like normal but due to some miscommunication the profiler rounded off the toe even more than normal. First skate was terrible with them and I felt like I had 0 blade to work with in the forward portion of my skate.

Am I basically stuck grinding them down first to go back to a normal Quad 1 to get them how I like them? I don't TOTALLY mind since they were free, but it is still slightly annoying.

Pic? 

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On 7/24/2021 at 12:36 AM, Beflar said:

No Quad profile has a 20'+ radius in it but I'm not here to defend the Quad profiles cause you might have a point.

I do like the 0.5 Quad thou so let me explain why I think it is different than all the other Quads.  I think of the 0.5 Quad as half as dramatic as an average Quad profile.  For example a 8-10-12-14(0.5 Quad) is not as dramatic as a 6-9-12-15 (QUAD 1).  I would have no problem recommending it to anyone at any skill level.  Just remember to drop the sharpen because you are going to have a little more steel on the ice.  I think you would like it also.

 

I totally agree with this. I have profiled many people’s skates with the Quad 0.5 since it is not too far pitched and everyone loves the 0.5.   (No surprise)   My 8 year old going into AAA also skates with a Quad 0.5 

Actually, to be honest I’ve been profiling with Blackstone’s OMNI Quad 0.5 which is a major upgrade to prosharp’s.  The OMNI turns the 8-10-12-14’.  Into a continuously blended or continuously increasing radius 8’ at the toe and slowly increasing to 14’ at the heal.   So no transition points.  This is the smoothest profile you can skate on!  Blackstone make OMNI Quad 0, 0.5, 1, 2 .  

On 7/24/2021 at 12:36 AM, Beflar said:

No Quad profile has a 20'+ radius in it but I'm not here to defend the Quad profiles cause you might have a point.

I do like the 0.5 Quad thou so let me explain why I think it is different than all the other Quads.  I think of the 0.5 Quad as half as dramatic as an average Quad profile.  For example a 8-10-12-14(0.5 Quad) is not as dramatic as a 6-9-12-15 (QUAD 1).  I would have no problem recommending it to anyone at any skill level.  Just remember to drop the sharpen because you are going to have a little more steel on the ice.  I think you would like it also.

 

I have profiled many people’s skates with the Quad 0.5 since it is not too far pitched and everyone loves the 0.5.   (No surprise)   My 8 year old going into AAA also has been skating on the Quad 0.5 for a couple years now. 

Actually, to be honest I’ve been profiling with Blackstone’s OMNI Quad 0.5 which is a major upgrade to prosharp’s.  The OMNI turns the 8-10-12-14’.  Into a continuously blended or continuously increasing radius 8’ at the toe and slowly increasing to 14’ at the heal.   So no transition points.  This is the smoothest profile you can skate on hands down.  In case you are wondering Blackstone makes OMNI Quad 0, 0.5, 1, and 2 .  

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Can you guys recommend a reputable place in the US to send runners in for ProSharp profiling?  Thanks.

Edited by ricepow

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22 hours ago, ricepow said:

Can you guys recommend a reputable place in the US to send runners in for ProSharp profiling?  Thanks.

My store does it, KK Skate, Ice Warehouse, NoIcing. Take your pick. 

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If you go to the front page of this forum, there’s a section called “The ProSharp Project,” where people share there experiences with different profiles. “Worth it” is pretty subjective. What do you like about quad 1, what do you dislike or wish was different? 

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On 9/3/2021 at 12:05 AM, Hanrider said:

hello, is quad 1 vs quad 0.5 big difference? I am skating on q1 and want to try 0.5 but don't know if it's worth it. 

When I was doing research about skate profiling I stumbled on a YouTube video "What is hockey skate profiling" by the guys from Hockey Tutorial.  In the end he said he liked the Quad 0.5 the best so I started there..

The best way I can describe the Quad 0.5 is it 'Just feels natural'.  Note, I was coming from a single 11' profile and I changed my sharpen from 5/8 to a 3/4 when I changed profiles.  These two things made a dramatic change for the better with my skating.  I have yet to hear/read anyone say they hate the quad 0.5 and I can't say that for the other Quad profiles.  

Please note that I use to wear a mirrored visor and have used T blades in the past.  So take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Edited by Beflar
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