Skate evolution and nomenclature

[skates73 3]

I know skates have evolved over the years to become stiffer and stiffer and it got me wondering, if I really liked a skate like the MX3s (2014) should I really be going for Mach's now?  I would assume they would be vastly stiffer than the MX3s were.  So would it almost be better to go for a second tier M5 pro, if I liked the MX3s?  Not sure if I'm correct but I would assume even the M5 pros would be stiffer and overall a better skate and fit and better features than the MX3s.

Also, it's a bit confusing but would the second tier Vapor 3X pros or Supreme 3S pros be better skates than the previous top line Vapor 2X pro or Supreme 2S pro?  One would assume so from the nomenclature but I'm not sure.   

[flip12 698]

Skates don’t improve year after year like that. What you’re picturing sounds like linear improvement. That’s the message that marketing departments try to sell, but it’s not that clear what an improvement actually is when you think about it. Sure, there are changes from year to year, and the messaging from the company’s marketing campaigns will always and only ever be positive about these, but there’s not objective measure to quantify “improvement.” Some improvements are actually missteps, which is usually clearest after in-depth reviews following actual product use start coming in.

Once in a while there can be big jumps in product quality, from the Bauer Supreme 8090 to the one90 for instance. But there were still plenty of players who longed for the 8090 after it was gone. Similarly, lots of players who loved Vapors up to the X60 didn’t like CURV Vapors like the APX. Bauer accomodated that for a while, but those days are numbered. So even in cases when it seems as clear as possible that a product “improved” you’ll never get everyone to agree to jump to the new model ship: improvement is very individual and imprecise.

[skates73 3]

11 hours ago, flip12 said:

Skates don’t improve year after year like that. What you’re picturing sounds like linear improvement. That’s the message that marketing departments try to sell, but it’s not that clear what an improvement actually is when you think about it. Sure, there are changes from year to year, and the messaging from the company’s marketing campaigns will always and only ever be positive about these, but there’s not objective measure to quantify “improvement.” Some improvements are actually missteps, which is usually clearest after in-depth reviews following actual product use start coming in.

Once in a while there can be big jumps in product quality, from the Bauer Supreme 8090 to the one90 for instance. But there were still plenty of players who longed for the 8090 after it was gone. Similarly, lots of players who loved Vapors up to the X60 didn’t like CURV Vapors like the APX. Bauer accomodated that for a while, but those days are numbered. So even in cases when it seems as clear as possible that a product “improved” you’ll never get everyone to agree to jump to the new model ship: improvement is very individual and imprecise.

Thanks, I guess it's kind of like why McDavid still uses the original Jetspeeds from like 2015.  I noticed he tried to switch to the Tacks ASV Pro in training camp/preseason and 1st game or two of the regular season but promptly went back to the old Jetspeeds.  My guess is he doesn't like the one piece boot and prefers the traditional separate outsoles.    

[stick9 881]

2 hours ago, skates73 said:

Thanks, I guess it's kind of like why McDavid still uses the original Jetspeeds from like 2015.  I noticed he tried to switch to the Tacks ASV Pro in training camp/preseason and 1st game or two of the regular season but promptly went back to the old Jetspeeds.  My guess is he doesn't like the one piece boot and prefers the traditional separate outsoles.    

Honestly, I bet it's more mental than anything else. Seems like every time he tries something new once he has an off night, it's right back to his old stuff.

Guys like than can fly in just about any skate. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by stick9

[puckpilot 312]

Don't get sucked into the marketing nonsense. Sure there are changes over time, but not every change is a step forward. A lot of times it's probably lateral, and sometimes it's even backward. It's impossible to say this skate is better than this other skate because it's not that straight forward. Because each of us is different. Each of our needs/preferences is different. So what might be the perfect skate for one person maybe the worst pair of skates ever for another. Just because it maybe stiffer does not mean it's automatically better for you. Because at the end of the day, all that matters is that the skate fits you properly, and that you're confident that it allows you to do what you want when you want.

If a $50 pair of skates does that for you, then it's the perfect skate. If a $1000 pair of skates doesn't, then it's junk.

Also names are just names. They're just fancy labels to call something, and it's a way the marketing can trick you into thinking something is good or better. The XYZ 10000 Pros must be better than the XYZ 1000 Pros from last year because it has a bigger number in the name right? It's like calling something the deluxe or the special version or limited edition. Just look at the MSRP price points for relative comparisons, and then, put the skate on. That'll be the final judgement on if a skate is good or not. If it fits well, and it feels good, then there you go.

Edited October 24, 2022 by puckpilot

[flip12 698]

13 hours ago, stick9 said:

Honestly, I bet it's more mental than anything else.

In the words of Fiona Apple, "so's everything." Kidding aside, looking at his performance over the years, I wouldn't rock that boat either. If his mental picture of what he's in is that solid that even a reskinned skate occupies even an iota of awareness, I'd say ditch it. His team needs all he can give and more. I don't doubt he could fly in any skate. Prior to his NHL days he successfully rocked RibCors, RBZs, and Tacks. For whatever reason, JetSpeed is where he sticks. Maybe it was the Goldilocks combination for him, and fussing with it just compromises his flow. Best performance flow in the world? Let it be.

16 hours ago, skates73 said:

Thanks, I guess it's kind of like why McDavid still uses the original Jetspeeds from like 2015.  I noticed he tried to switch to the Tacks ASV Pro in training camp/preseason and 1st game or two of the regular season but promptly went back to the old Jetspeeds.  My guess is he doesn't like the one piece boot and prefers the traditional separate outsoles.    

It looks like he tried one-piece ASiVs in preseason practices, but once the regular season rolled around, it looks like he was in his old JetSpeeds dressed as ASiVs. If you look back at the pictures you can see the same boot pattern as he usually wears--that short, almost LEGOish blocky look of JetSpeed boots--as well as a visible separate outsole, foxing, and distinct JetSpeed toe cap. He's tried original JetSpeeds skinned to appear current in previous generations, but he's never stuck with anything else for more than a few weeks. Around All-Star Weekend last year he did wear a one-piece ASiVish pair, but he switched back shortly after the All-Star Game.

Back to your original question, I haven't followed the particulars of Bauer and CCM skate evolution over the last ten years so closely, but both brands have tended back towards less stiff, especially in the facing, as they seemed to conclude they went too far with stiffness (maybe the boots were simply lasting too long?) My thought was maybe it was in attempt to head off Scott Van Horne boots. Each time Bauer and CCM softened up a bit to provide more forward flex, they stole back some players who had gone over to SVH/True boots. Hyperlites (very Makoish) have gotten a lot of former Bauer wearers back, including Berniers, Wright, and Bedard.

[BruinDust 42]

I'm a Bauer skate guy and I've recently went skate shopping for a new pair. Bit of background when I got back into playing recreational hockey in 2015 my first skates were the Bauer Nexus 5000s (2014-15) which I used for three seasons than upgraded to the Bauer 7000s (2014-15) while on clearance. Going to the 7000s with the tech-mesh boot and full composite outsole the upgrade was very noticeable. 

I had an injury (broken heel and high ankle sprain) back in late May and when I started playing again this fall I wanted to explore new skates as my 7000s now have four seasons on them. Looking for a bit more stability.

Focusing on Bauer I tried on the Mach, the M5 Pro and the M4. Also tried on the Hyperlite, 3X pro and 3X. And my first impression of all of these skates.........they feel cheap. They felt more "disposable" and flimsy in that they were built for performance but not for long-lasting comfort and durability. Particularly the M5 Pros when compared to my old Nexus 7000s as they were both from the "2nd price point". I didn't see or feel the quality there when compared to skates from the same price point basically as 2-3 generations of skates ago. Granted one skate is tech-mesh and one is Curv Composite. 

So I ended up finding a new pair of Nexus 2Ns (2018-19) online and on clearance. While I haven't had a chance to try them yet (in the process of swapping out the tongues) my first reaction is they are a better quality skate than the current M5 Pro judging by the materials and finish. But yet not quite as durable or of the quality of my older Nexus 7000s. All really from the same price point (2nd from the top) just different years (2014 vs. 2018 vs. 2022). 

My impression of Bauer skates is while prices keep creeping higher every year, the quality of materials used in the skates construction is decreasing with each passing generation. Sure each passing generation will likely get lighter and stiffer, but will you get the comfort and usage/durability out of skates that customers have become accustomed to? I'm not so sure. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by BruinDust

[Westside 218]

3 hours ago, BruinDust said:

My impression of Bauer skates is while prices keep creeping higher every year, the quality of materials used in the skates construction is decreasing with each passing generation. Sure each passing generation will likely get lighter and stiffer, but will you get the comfort and usage/durability out of skates that customers have become accustomed to? I'm not so sure. 

This applies to more than just skates and not just Bauer. Both Bauer and Warrior seem to be cheapening their offerings for the last 4-5 years. An example would be the APX2/1X glove got downgraded in the 1x lite and that continued into the hyper lite glove. Warrior's latest LX elbow pad is a substantial step down from their DX elbow pad the year before. Same applies to the quality of their gloves since the QR1

[BruinDust 42]

39 minutes ago, Westside said:

This applies to more than just skates and not just Bauer. Both Bauer and Warrior seem to be cheapening their offerings for the last 4-5 years. An example would be the APX2/1X glove got downgraded in the 1x lite and that continued into the hyper lite glove. Warrior's latest LX elbow pad is a substantial step down from their DX elbow pad the year before. Same applies to the quality of their gloves since the QR1

I agree. I think Hockey Review guy on Youtube ripped apart a recent pair of Bauer gloves to show all the instances where Bauer has downgraded the material to something cheaper (while increasing the overall price of the glove each year). 

Same with Bauer shin-pads. I have a pair of 1S shins with Curv Composite protecting the shin and I don't believe Bauer uses Curv in their shinpads anymore and have gone back to hard plastic throughout. Yet prices have only gone up and not all due to inflation. 

[Hills 709]

1 hour ago, Westside said:

This applies to more than just skates and not just Bauer. Both Bauer and Warrior seem to be cheapening their offerings for the last 4-5 years. An example would be the APX2/1X glove got downgraded in the 1x lite and that continued into the hyper lite glove. Warrior's latest LX elbow pad is a substantial step down from their DX elbow pad the year before. Same applies to the quality of their gloves since the QR1

At least Warrior has made improvements on the QR5 Pro line of gloves.

19 minutes ago, BruinDust said:

I agree. I think Hockey Review guy on Youtube ripped apart a recent pair of Bauer gloves to show all the instances where Bauer has downgraded the material to something cheaper (while increasing the overall price of the glove each year). 

Same with Bauer shin-pads. I have a pair of 1S shins with Curv Composite protecting the shin and I don't believe Bauer uses Curv in their shinpads anymore and have gone back to hard plastic throughout. Yet prices have only gone up and not all due to inflation. 

I should clarify, I ripped open an pro stock glove to show what materials were used before but I haven't gotten a chance to rip open a pair of retail gloves. But I point out the lack of plastics and more expensive (and heavier) foams used in the pro stock versions.

It is sad that people pretend all retail gloves are the same when CCM, True, and Warrior now offer a more protective glove than Vapor and Supreme Bauer gloves.

[Westside 218]

51 minutes ago, BruinDust said:

Same with Bauer shin-pads. I have a pair of 1S shins with Curv Composite protecting the shin and I don't believe Bauer uses Curv in their shinpads anymore and have gone back to hard plastic throughout. Yet prices have only gone up and not all due to inflation. 

I love my Bauer 1x shin pads. Like the 1S, they're made of Curv Composite and have this hinge at the ankle. Bauer ditched both in what I an only assume are cost cutting measures 

[BruinDust 42]

1 hour ago, Hills said:

At least Warrior has made improvements on the QR5 Pro line of gloves.

I should clarify, I ripped open an pro stock glove to show what materials were used before but I haven't gotten a chance to rip open a pair of retail gloves. But I point out the lack of plastics and more expensive (and heavier) foams used in the pro stock versions.

It is sad that people pretend all retail gloves are the same when CCM, True, and Warrior now offer a more protective glove than Vapor and Supreme Bauer gloves.

I had that video confused with this video. Enjoy your reviews BTW keep it up!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvfbeIb2cuU

 

 

[Hills 709]

25 minutes ago, BruinDust said:

I had that video confused with this video. Enjoy your reviews BTW keep it up!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvfbeIb2cuU

 

 

All good! Just wanted to clarify things. Thanks for checking them out 🙂

[skates73 3]

19 hours ago, flip12 said:

In the words of Fiona Apple, "so's everything." Kidding aside, looking at his performance over the years, I wouldn't rock that boat either. If his mental picture of what he's in is that solid that even a reskinned skate occupies even an iota of awareness, I'd say ditch it. His team needs all he can give and more. I don't doubt he could fly in any skate. Prior to his NHL days he successfully rocked RibCors, RBZs, and Tacks. For whatever reason, JetSpeed is where he sticks. Maybe it was the Goldilocks combination for him, and fussing with it just compromises his flow. Best performance flow in the world? Let it be.

It looks like he tried one-piece ASiVs in preseason practices, but once the regular season rolled around, it looks like he was in his old JetSpeeds dressed as ASiVs. If you look back at the pictures you can see the same boot pattern as he usually wears--that short, almost LEGOish blocky look of JetSpeed boots--as well as a visible separate outsole, foxing, and distinct JetSpeed toe cap. He's tried original JetSpeeds skinned to appear current in previous generations, but he's never stuck with anything else for more than a few weeks. Around All-Star Weekend last year he did wear a one-piece ASiVish pair, but he switched back shortly after the All-Star Game.

Back to your original question, I haven't followed the particulars of Bauer and CCM skate evolution over the last ten years so closely, but both brands have tended back towards less stiff, especially in the facing, as they seemed to conclude they went too far with stiffness (maybe the boots were simply lasting too long?) My thought was maybe it was in attempt to head off Scott Van Horne boots. Each time Bauer and CCM softened up a bit to provide more forward flex, they stole back some players who had gone over to SVH/True boots. Hyperlites (very Makoish) have gotten a lot of former Bauer wearers back, including Berniers, Wright, and Bedard.

Interesting.  I did notice a high end boot like the 3X Pros went to a plastic outsole (TPU).  High end skates, as far as I can remember always had some kind of stiff composite outsole.  I'm curious as to how the plastic would compare with composite outsoles as far as performance, feel and durability.

 

[skates73 3]

15 hours ago, BruinDust said:

I'm a Bauer skate guy and I've recently went skate shopping for a new pair. Bit of background when I got back into playing recreational hockey in 2015 my first skates were the Bauer Nexus 5000s (2014-15) which I used for three seasons than upgraded to the Bauer 7000s (2014-15) while on clearance. Going to the 7000s with the tech-mesh boot and full composite outsole the upgrade was very noticeable. 

I had an injury (broken heel and high ankle sprain) back in late May and when I started playing again this fall I wanted to explore new skates as my 7000s now have four seasons on them. Looking for a bit more stability.

Focusing on Bauer I tried on the Mach, the M5 Pro and the M4. Also tried on the Hyperlite, 3X pro and 3X. And my first impression of all of these skates.........they feel cheap. They felt more "disposable" and flimsy in that they were built for performance but not for long-lasting comfort and durability. Particularly the M5 Pros when compared to my old Nexus 7000s as they were both from the "2nd price point". I didn't see or feel the quality there when compared to skates from the same price point basically as 2-3 generations of skates ago. Granted one skate is tech-mesh and one is Curv Composite. 

So I ended up finding a new pair of Nexus 2Ns (2018-19) online and on clearance. While I haven't had a chance to try them yet (in the process of swapping out the tongues) my first reaction is they are a better quality skate than the current M5 Pro judging by the materials and finish. But yet not quite as durable or of the quality of my older Nexus 7000s. All really from the same price point (2nd from the top) just different years (2014 vs. 2018 vs. 2022). 

My impression of Bauer skates is while prices keep creeping higher every year, the quality of materials used in the skates construction is decreasing with each passing generation. Sure each passing generation will likely get lighter and stiffer, but will you get the comfort and usage/durability out of skates that customers have become accustomed to? I'm not so sure. 

Do you find quite a noticeable difference when skating with Supremes vs Vapors even though they've normalize the fit system now?  I'm kind of worried it would feel drastically different trying to go from Supremes for many years to Vapors.  I'm unsure if there are a lot of nuances specific to the two lines that may make it tricky to switch from one to the other.

[BruinDust 42]

5 hours ago, skates73 said:

Do you find quite a noticeable difference when skating with Supremes vs Vapors even though they've normalize the fit system now?  I'm kind of worried it would feel drastically different trying to go from Supremes for many years to Vapors.  I'm unsure if there are a lot of nuances specific to the two lines that may make it tricky to switch from one to the other.

I never got to skate in them, just tried them on at the local hockey shop. 

To give this context I'm a Nexus fit guy. When I bought my skates back in late 2014, I tried on Vapor, Supreme and Nexus (all in D width) in that order. The Vapor and Supreme didn't fit well and when I put on the Nexus I knew immediately that those were for me. Like it wasn't even close. 

The three nuances that struck me this time around from a fit perspective was:

1) They say "Fit 3" is like a Nexus fit but it's much more an "EE" fit than it is a Nexus fit. If I'm a Nexus user looking at new skates I wouldn't automatically assume that because you fit a Nexus that Fit 3 is the right fit for you. 

2) I didn't find a huge amount of difference when trying Fit 1 vs. Fit 2 in a particular model of skate. Just a bit more volume in Fit 2. 

3) The strange one for me was I automatically assumed coming from Nexus that Supreme would be the correct line for me, just a matter of finding the right size and fit/width. But it was the opposite. I found the Vapors fit me better than the Supremes did, especially in the heel pocket and the ankle wrap. 

[flip12 698]

6 hours ago, skates73 said:

Interesting.  I did notice a high end boot like the 3X Pros went to a plastic outsole (TPU).  High end skates, as far as I can remember always had some kind of stiff composite outsole.  I'm curious as to how the plastic would compare with composite outsoles as far as performance, feel and durability.

High end boots had TPU outsoles until Bauer started reinforcing theirs with composite inlays and then full composite outsoles in the mid-90's. If you look carefully, pros still used skate TPU outsoles instead of composite, like Bure did on his first Vapor 8s. I think I even spotted a pair of TPU one90s but I can't remember who had them. Marleau skated on TPU until he ran out of his downspec'd 9Ks.

[BruinDust 42]

7 hours ago, skates73 said:

Interesting.  I did notice a high end boot like the 3X Pros went to a plastic outsole (TPU).  High end skates, as far as I can remember always had some kind of stiff composite outsole.  I'm curious as to how the plastic would compare with composite outsoles as far as performance, feel and durability.

 

Going from my Nexus 5000s (with Pro Sublimated TPR) to my Nexus 7000s (with full composite outsole) I found the difference in stability and comfort quite noticeable. It's even more noticeable the rare times I have to break out the 5000s for a game or two when my 7000s were getting some repair done. 

I don't know how TPR compares to TPU but any future Bauer skates purchases the composite outsole is a must. I wouldn't go back to a plastic outsole. 

[skates73 3]

9 hours ago, flip12 said:

High end boots had TPU outsoles until Bauer started reinforcing theirs with composite inlays and then full composite outsoles in the mid-90's. If you look carefully, pros still used skate TPU outsoles instead of composite, like Bure did on his first Vapor 8s. I think I even spotted a pair of TPU one90s but I can't remember who had them. Marleau skated on TPU until he ran out of his downspec'd 9Ks.

Wow, I forgot about those plastic white outsoles!  It's hard to know what the pros actually use nowadays.  I was looking at a bunch of pics of current NHLers wearing the Hyperlites and it looks like the outsoles they use aren't the new yellow rubbery Hyperflex outsole they come in sold to the general public.  It looks like they might just have regular composite outsoles in their custom "hyperlites". 

[VegasHockey 1256]

5 minutes ago, skates73 said:

Wow, I forgot about those plastic white outsoles!  It's hard to know what the pros actually use nowadays.  I was looking at a bunch of pics of current NHLers wearing the Hyperlites and it looks like the outsoles they use aren't the new yellow rubbery Hyperflex outsole they come in sold to the general public.  It looks like they might just have regular composite outsoles in their custom "hyperlites". 

You are correct. Many skates the pros are using are custom in more than just fit. For example, I still see skates that "look" like a Hyperlite but they are made with a tech mesh material; Carbon outsoles, TPU outsole, Hyperlite outsole. I also have seen CCM 80K skates that are dressed in 100K graphics, they are easy to spot since you can see the boot in not one-piece and is instead separated into a boot and an outsole. 

[flip12 698]

8 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

You are correct. Many skates the pros are using are custom in more than just fit. For example, I still see skates that "look" like a Hyperlite but they are made with a tech mesh material; Carbon outsoles, TPU outsole, Hyperlite outsole. I also have seen CCM 80K skates that are dressed in 100K graphics, they are easy to spot since you can see the boot in not one-piece and is instead separated into a boot and an outsole. 

I've been on the lookout for tech mesh HyperLites. Do you have any pictures/image links?

8 hours ago, skates73 said:

Wow, I forgot about those plastic white outsoles!  It's hard to know what the pros actually use nowadays.  I was looking at a bunch of pics of current NHLers wearing the Hyperlites and it looks like the outsoles they use aren't the new yellow rubbery Hyperflex outsole they come in sold to the general public.  It looks like they might just have regular composite outsoles in their custom "hyperlites". 

If you look for game used HyperLites, it appears Bauer has a grey and black outsole variant with a similar if not the same construction as the neon retail version.

[VegasHockey 1256]

21 hours ago, flip12 said:

I've been on the lookout for tech mesh HyperLites. Do you have any pictures/image links?

Look around on sidelineswap and you'll eventually come across them.

21 hours ago, flip12 said:

If you look for game used HyperLites, it appears Bauer has a grey and black outsole variant with a similar if not the same construction as the neon retail version.

Yes, for pros and customs it's black and grey instead of black and neon. That being said, majority of them are not using the new hybrid outsole. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by VegasHockey

[flip12 698]

10 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

Look around on sidelineswap and you'll eventually come across them.

Yes, for pros and customs it's black and grey instead of black and neon. That being said, majority of them are not using the new hybrid outsole. 

Keep us posted with a link if you spot some. I'm psyched to see some tech-mesh HyperLites.