Who makes the best holders?

[Beflar 53]

I'm only asking because I am in the market for custom skates and have been looking at True SVH skates and you can order without holders attached.  I noticed that Mitch Marner uses Bauer holders with his True skates.

I'm in older Bauers with Step steel now, Quad 0.5 profile.

 

[Sniper9 517]

13 hours ago, Beflar said:

I'm only asking because I am in the market for custom skates and have been looking at True SVH skates and you can order without holders attached.  I noticed that Mitch Marner uses Bauer holders with his True skates.

I'm in older Bauers with Step steel now, Quad 0.5 profile.

 

Each holder has their pros and cons. Ive actually been impressed with the true holders. Been using Bauer and ccm holders previously. You also save money keeping the true holders on since you pay for them regardless of whether u are going to use them for ur svh skates. 

[VegasHockey 1256]

My ranking:

1. CCM XS
2. Bauer LS Edge
3. TRUE Shift
4. Marsblade I2

If the TRUE Shift holder had more aftermarket options, such as Flare or 4mm steel, that would be tied for #1

[Stewie 721]

My second pair of true I had the LS holder put on, but I actually preferred the shift holder and had it swapped over. 

[Cavs019 702]

CCM XS is the best holder IMO just based on the fact that you can readily find STEP blacksteel for it at retail. 
 

I’d rule out the Tuuk Edge entirely given that it’s going to be phased out for that new ODIN/rental skate-looking holder in about 2-3 months. Not sure what their plans are to continue supporting it or manufacturing Edge steel but my guess knowing Bauer is they’ll want to funnel people into the new model. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Cavs019

[mojo122 529]

My understanding is that the new steel will work in the current Edge holders but the current steel won't in the new PowerFly holder.  I'm currently skating in both Bauer and CCM skates and find both the Step Black and Bauer TI pretty close in performance.  

[Sniper9 517]

8 hours ago, Cavs019 said:

CCM XS is the best holder IMO just based on the fact that you can readily find STEP blacksteel for it at retail. 
 

I’d rule out the Tuuk Edge entirely given that it’s going to be phased out for that new ODIN/rental skate-looking holder in about 2-3 months. Not sure what their plans are to continue supporting it or manufacturing Edge steel but my guess knowing Bauer is they’ll want to funnel people into the new model. 

Jrz is essentially step and they make steel for true shift max holders

[stick9 881]

6 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Jrz is essentially step and they make steel for true shift max holders

Not readily available at retail. Like Step. That may not seem like a huge deal but it will be if you break a runner.

@BeflarI'd opt for the CCM XS holder with Step Blacksteel. Swapping steel may not be as fast as the Edge holder but it's easier. If the lock mechanism breaks you can replace it without removing the holder. Something worth noting, Step has a 1 year warranty on all their steel. If you break a blade, which I did, they send you a new set. 

[Sniper9 517]

4 hours ago, stick9 said:

Not readily available at retail. Like Step. That may not seem like a huge deal but it will be if you break a runner.

@BeflarI'd opt for the CCM XS holder with Step Blacksteel. Swapping steel may not be as fast as the Edge holder but it's easier. If the lock mechanism breaks you can replace it without removing the holder. Something worth noting, Step has a 1 year warranty on all their steel. If you break a blade, which I did, they send you a new set. 

What do you mean retail like big box stores? I ordered mine online and got it within a week. Profiled and sharpened. If you're one that is worried about steel breaking then you'd have to off the bat to begin with.  Keep the stock steel as a backup so you're not steelless for 1-2 weeks tops. 

And realistically the chances of quality snapping is super rare. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Sniper9

[krisdrum 223]

The JRZ seem readily available in Canada, but not down south.  I was looking at getting some for my kid's new Trues and they were nearly impossible to find what I wanted in the US.  Found them in a few places on line in Canada, but none of the places would ship to the US or it was cost prohibitive.

18 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

What do you mean retail like big box stores? I ordered mine online and got it within a week. Profiled and sharpened. If you're one that is worried about steel breaking then you'd have to off the bat to begin with.  Keep the stock steel as a backup so you're not steelless for 1-2 weeks tops. 

And realistically the chances of quality snapping is super rare. 

 

[Sniper9 517]

3 hours ago, krisdrum said:

The JRZ seem readily available in Canada, but not down south.  I was looking at getting some for my kid's new Trues and they were nearly impossible to find what I wanted in the US.  Found them in a few places on line in Canada, but none of the places would ship to the US or it was cost prohibitive.

 

That's too bad. Solid steel. 

[VegasHockey 1256]

On 4/11/2023 at 6:31 AM, krisdrum said:

The JRZ seem readily available in Canada, but not down south.  I was looking at getting some for my kid's new Trues and they were nearly impossible to find what I wanted in the US.  Found them in a few places on line in Canada, but none of the places would ship to the US or it was cost prohibitive.

 

 

I am honestly surprised Bauer hasn't started litigation against them. Unless they are so focused on their silly new holder, they just don't seem to care anymore. 

[Sniper9 517]

5 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

I am honestly surprised Bauer hasn't started litigation against them. Unless they are so focused on their silly new holder, they just don't seem to care anymore. 

There must be a way around the patent. Byonic did it first with the multi fit steel. Heck byonic and bladetech are able to avoid patent issues just by changing the shape of the part of the steel that's insignificant 

[Giltis 116]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:30 AM, VegasHockey said:

I am honestly surprised Bauer hasn't started litigation against them. Unless they are so focused on their silly new holder, they just don't seem to care anymore. 

 

On 4/12/2023 at 5:23 PM, Sniper9 said:

There must be a way around the patent. Byonic did it first with the multi fit steel. Heck byonic and bladetech are able to avoid patent issues just by changing the shape of the part of the steel that's insignificant 

I think can answer this one, I believe the patent is about due on their older holder so it's not worth fighting them anymore, and probably why the new Holder was developed in the first place as a way to have a patent on their latest offering. If they made steel for the new holder then Bauer could go after them.

[Sniper9 517]

9 hours ago, Giltis said:

 

I think can answer this one, I believe the patent is about due on their older holder so it's not worth fighting them anymore, and probably why the new Holder was developed in the first place as a way to have a patent on their latest offering. If they made steel for the new holder then Bauer could go after them.

Maybe, but byonics multi fit came out last year or even the year before. And even before that byonic and baldetech still offered edge steel when tydan and step were told to stop. So there must be something with bladetech and byonics design that worked around the patent. 

[flip12 699]

2 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Maybe, but byonics multi fit came out last year or even the year before. And even before that byonic and baldetech still offered edge steel when tydan and step were told to stop. So there must be something with bladetech and byonics design that worked around the patent. 

Maybe they didn't even definitively work around the patent, but at least if they made an effort it could have made it a battle, which can get costly. As long as the potential cost of litigation is seen as potentially greater than the benefit of reducing competition, it can deter the conflict from becoming a case. If the defendant didn't even try to make the geometry different, there's no chance the legal black box probably contains a loss for them. If they did try, it could go either way, and the complainant could be lose and be out a lot of money for something that's not a big threat to their revenue at the end of the day.

[Sniper9 517]

11 hours ago, flip12 said:

Maybe they didn't even definitively work around the patent, but at least if they made an effort it could have made it a battle, which can get costly. As long as the potential cost of litigation is seen as potentially greater than the benefit of reducing competition, it can deter the conflict from becoming a case. If the defendant didn't even try to make the geometry different, there's no chance the legal black box probably contains a loss for them. If they did try, it could go either way, and the complainant could be lose and be out a lot of money for something that's not a big threat to their revenue at the end of the day.

That's fair. And the fact that step and tydan were Bauer's biggest threats. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Sniper9

[stick9 881]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:11 PM, Giltis said:

 

I think can answer this one, I believe the patent is about due on their older holder so it's not worth fighting them anymore, and probably why the new Holder was developed in the first place as a way to have a patent on their latest offering. If they made steel for the new holder then Bauer could go after them.

I believe this is the case as well. It seems as though Bauer only went after companies that were a sizable threat like Step and Tyden. You gotta pick your fights.

We'll see if Bauer has learned from their past mistakes. 

[VegasHockey 1256]

3 hours ago, stick9 said:

I believe this is the case as well. It seems as though Bauer only went after companies that were a sizable threat like Step and Tyden. You gotta pick your fights.

We'll see if Bauer has learned from their past mistakes. 

My understanding was Bauer went after mostly everyone, including Flare. Some fought it, some didn't, some disappeared (Massive Blade), and others like Tydan made an adjustment to their business model. 

Yes, the patent has expired. I have tested the new holder and don't really see any benefit to the concave shape in the center of the holder other than it was a way for Bauer to make some small adjustments and get a new patent. There are a few guys I know that are testing the new holder and preffered their non-Bauer steel so they used a dremel and removed the concave of the new holder so the old steel could fit. Problem solved! lol

 

[slapshot54 0]

22 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

My understanding was Bauer went after mostly everyone, including Flare. Some fought it, some didn't, some disappeared (Massive Blade), and others like Tydan made an adjustment to their business model. 

Yes, the patent has expired. I have tested the new holder and don't really see any benefit to the concave shape in the center of the holder other than it was a way for Bauer to make some small adjustments and get a new patent. There are a few guys I know that are testing the new holder and preffered their non-Bauer steel so they used a dremel and removed the concave of the new holder so the old steel could fit. Problem solved! lol

 

Is the fly steel and holder the same height as the LS edge?

[VegasHockey 1256]

21 hours ago, slapshot54 said:

Is the fly steel and holder the same height as the LS edge?

Yes.

[Chris Gent 7]

I just ordered a pair of SVH custom skates yesterday with the holders unmounted.  I plan to put CCM XS holders on them when they arrive for 3 reasons.  

1. I have 3 sets of great DLC steel in 304 mm (the size I need) from my son's skates that he just came out of that had less than 3 months of use.  2 are Bladetech and 1 is Step Blacksteel.  He and I use the same profile / sharpening radius and the Bladetech are profiled and sharpened perfectly for me now and should last at least 2-3 years in a rotation, and that's if I don't get the Step Blacksteel profiled to match them as a backup set.
2. Durability.  I've had issues as a large guy (6'4" / 220 now...but a lot heavier in the past) with the Edge holders on Bauer skates.  My current Edge holders are the 2nd set on a pair of pro stock MX3s that were brand new skates a few years ago.  I got the skates about 2 years after intro to the market after they'd been sitting in a team equipment room unused, so they're not really quite as old as the MX3s really are, and I only really got about 2-3 years out of the 1st set of Edge holders before I had to replace them because I kept having steel pop loose.
3. Steel availability - Should my skates outlast the 3 sets of steel I have, I want to have more options for replacement at decent prices, and the XS holders offer that.  With the Edge holder going away soon, higher end steel may start to become limited in options.

Now just to decide who I want to have mount the skates, because I'm not sure I want the place I ordered from to do the mounting for me...but the one guy I really trust is 700 miles away...I guess I have to see if I can get them baked / molded without holders, let them set for a couple of days, and then ship them off to him to mount the holders and profile that set of Step Steel to match my Bladetech.  Of course, then there's the whole idea of mounting holders without me there to ensure they are 100% centered  where my balance points are.  So many variables!!!!!

Edited April 28, 2023 by Chris Gent