Pattern DB question

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Newbie question here, please be gentle. I just started playing hockey a year ago, love it and play as many as 8 hours a week, and have been experimenting with different sticks and lengths (already a stick junkie). I'm a little guy (5'7", 135 lbs) and the stick that I like the best so far is the Vector V50 Intermediate, which I have only found with the Recchi curve. I have found that the tape on my blade is wearing noticeably more at the heel. I've started cutting my stick down, it's now a little below my chin, but it still wears more at the heel, and I don't want to go much shorter. So when I started looking for sticks with lower lie numbers, I found the Pattern DB here. However, I had a few questions about this DB.

Where do the measurements e.g. lie # come from, are they measured by mods, submitted by readers, or do they come straight from the product catalogues ? Because in a few cases I've found, the pattern DB says one thing but the manufacturer website says another. For instance, the pattern DB says the Recchi curve has a 5 lie, whereas the CCM website says this curve is a 6 lie. I found a few other discrepancies.

Do the companies change the curve specifications over time ? Could the Recchi curve have changed since it went into the database, or is it likely just a typo ?

And off-topic, can someone recommend a stick/blade combination that might be suitable for someone like me (i.e. a small beginner who doesn't have that strong a shot yet), and that would be easily sourced locally in Toronto ? I've tried a number of sticks, OPS, two-piece, and wood, but so far I seem to be most consistent with the V50, it's just that someone told me that I could benefit from a lower lie #. I'd like to stay away from super-expensive sticks for now, until I know exactly what I want.

Anyways, great job guys. This site is awesome.

[Kobe 0]

The stick lies come from both user knowledge and from the product catalogues. Trust the DB. It's pretty accurate.

Companies do sometimes change the pattern specs over time. The pattern DB is usually updated as soon as it is confirmed that it has changed. Read the forum and check the DB to keep yourself in the loop.

I'd recommend a shaft/blade combo when trying to find a pattern that you like. Wood blades are generally inexpensive and you don't have to buy an entire wood stick to try out a new pattern. You also get the added performance benefit of a composite shaft. Any whip flex TPS shaft should be good for you. Any intermediate shaft from other companies (that fits senior blades) would also be a good choice.

[opus22 0]

i find that lies, though based on angles and seemingly universal -are not between some companies. i think personally that the culprit may be easton. i know that 5.5 lies on sherwoods are between the easton 5.5 and 5.0 - closer to the five. i think the ccm and bauer lies are also different than eastons. i think this is also the case with the recchi. i think its between an easton 5 and 5.5 - closer to 5 imo. you might try a woodie cheap modano to see if their 5 is more to your taste. sherwoods coffey and spezza are close to what your using now. i dont think the recchi is a 5 or a 6, as its listed in some places.

the bouchard and stlouis patterns are sherwood 5's i believe - checking them out might be a help.

also, a bigger rocker on the blade can make up for some lie issues - if you dont mind the rocker. a sakic has a slightly higher lie (imo) - but the rocker makes more flexible lie wise - the recchi has much less rocker.

i have a question about the bonk/hossa ccm pattern. they say its a 7 - but feels like a 5 to me....could they be that off on the website? it definitely doesnt seem like a 7, like the bauer peca....which seems close to the easton 6. <_<

dont feel bad about not gettin lies and all that - ive been playing for over 25 years....and i still dont get it sometimes.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

The stick lies come from both user knowledge and from the product catalogues.  Trust the DB.  It's pretty accurate.

Thanks for the replies Kobe and Opus. This may sound like a silly question, but when using the DB, is it then safe to assume that the lies in the DB are comparable, even if the curves come from different manufacturers ? Opus mentions that there seems to be some variablity between manufacturers, does this variability get normalized/accounted for when things go into the DB ? In other words, if the DB says that Easton Curve A and Sherwood Curve B and CCM Curve C all have lie 5, does it mean they have the same lie if you put them side-by-side ? I have spent so much time in the hockey stores laying curves up against each other, but it gets confusing after a while, and if I can understand how to use the Pattern DB it would make things a *whole* lot easier.

[KnightII 0]

I'm not exactly sure, but it appears as though the pattern db is taking blade lies and reporting them in the db according to the Easton scale. While not an exact science, the pattern db here at MSH is better than all the others I've seen. Take your Recchi as an example. It is a 6 lie on CCM literature and website. It is a 5 in the pattern db. The truth of the fact is, when you put the Recchi between the Easton Modano (5), and the Easton Sakic (5.5), it falls between the two. It is not an exact 5.25 because it is closer to the Modano 5 than the Sakic 5.5 and thusly (as I'm guessing here) is why it got rated as a 5. Therefore you might be able to see now, this pattern db is closer to the truth than the results you would get if you were to compare the three blades using each brand's scale.

As a rule of thumb, keep in mind:

Generally the lower the lie, the longer the stick should be. Conversely, the higher the lie the shorter the stick.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

While not an exact science, the pattern db here at MSH is better than all the others I've seen. ...Therefore you might be able to see now, this pattern db is closer to the truth than the results you would get if you were to compare the three blades using each brand's scale.

OK, so now I know that I should trust the pattern DB here more than the manufacturer's ratings, which is very good to know. It didn't occur to me that there might be variance between the manufacturers.

As a rule of thumb, keep in mind:

Generally the lower the lie, the longer the stick should be. Conversely, the higher the lie the shorter the stick.

OK, so here I am a bit confused. My problem is my stick is wearing at the heel. I understood - perhaps incorrectly ? - that when this happens, I either need to 1) shorten the stick, or 2) get a blade with a lower lie. Is that correct for my problem ? I've shortened my stick to the point (a little below chin on skates) where I don't want to go any further, and am still having the same problem. Logic *seems* to tell me that if I in order to get the full length of the blade on the ice, and given a fixed stick length, the interior angle between stick and blade needs to be larger (= lower lie ?) Am I understanding this all correctly ? I am eager and willing to be corrected....

thanks for the help guys !

[Chadd 916]

You got it. If you don't want to go shorter, you need a lower lie.

[KnightII 0]

OK, so here I am a bit confused.  My problem is my stick is wearing at the heel.  I understood - perhaps incorrectly ? - that when this happens, I either need to 1) shorten the stick, or 2) get a blade with a lower lie.  Is that correct for my problem ? I've shortened my stick to the point (a little below chin on skates) where I don't want to go any further, and am still having the same problem.  Logic *seems* to tell me that if I in order to get the full length of the blade on the ice, and given a fixed stick length, the interior angle between stick and blade needs to be larger (= lower lie ?) Am I understanding this all correctly ? I am eager and willing to be corrected....

thanks for the help guys !

You're correct with your situation...Adjust the length of the stick (shorter to move the wear pattern to the center of the blade) or get a blade with a lower lie.

In otherwords, you have two options for your situation. 1. Adapt the way you play to suit the the equipment you have, or 2. Adapt the equipment you have to suit the way you play. It's your choice.

Case 1.

If you want to continue to use your current stick and get the wear pattern to the center of the blade and away from the heel, you'll need to shorten the stick accordingly and learn to stickhandle/shoot with the puck a bit closer to your feet. (As an asside, standing more upright when you skate could help, but don't do this if it causes your skating to suffer.)

Case 2

If you're comfortable with where the puck is in relation to your body when you shoot and stickhandle and you need length in the stick you'll need to find another blade that has a lower lie. Easton Modano (TPS Tkachuk, Inno Federov) would probably be the best start for you.

I was where you're at a few years back when starting out in the game later in life. At first, I knew nothing of curves, lies and appropriate stick lenghts so I kept my sticks as long as I could. Lo and behold, I would wear the blades out at the heel. After some suggestions by more experienced players and some personal experimenting with their sticks, I play with a stick length considerably shorter than my original sticks. I use different blade patterns now too.

Currently, I too use a stick with the Recchi blade pattern and my stick length is about my collarbone or adams apple height when standing on skates. I have another stick that has a blade pattern with a lower lie that is about an inch longer. Sometimes I use it when I play as a defenseman.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Easton Modano (TPS Tkachuk, Inno Federov) would probably be the best start for you.

OK, on the basis of a some helpful recommendations of the Modano, that's what I'm going to try. I'm thinking about buying the Easton Z-Carbon intermediate wood stick, I think that's what they call it, which comes with the Modano curve and I'm guessing would have a comparable flex to the V50 intermediate. Is the Modano exactly the same curve as the Forsberg ? I see they share the same entry in the pattern DB.

As an aside, at lunch I went to a sports store and laid a Modano blade up against the Recchi. The Modano actually seemed to be a slightly higher lie, but maybe that was my eye. It's not exactly obvious how to compare two sticks that are rockered slightly differently.

What stores in Toronto stock the widest range of sticks/blades ? I've been to Duke's, I love the people there, and their prices are great, but they're a little far (I live downtown). Just Hockey on Don Mills seems to have a wide selection, but for some reason I don't really like that store, and I don't why because the guys have always been nice to me.

Thanks guys, you've helped me out a lot. If nothing else, I can tell my wife that the nice people on this website said I have to buy new sticks !

[Squirrel 0]

yup the modano is the same. they just changed the name of it cause modano went with RBK.

im not from the toronto area but ive heard some good things about Peranis.

[M-Cohen 0]

Try Toronto hockey repair.