Moore files civil suit...

[donkey87 0]

i don't know why people are not picking this guy up.. sure he's washed up but he has other things going for him like bert not being able to play in any games he plays in. If i was the oilers i would pick this guy up and give him a two way contract.. send him to the minors and bring him up when they play the canucks. just think about how much he would be worth if your team had him in the lineup and playing the canucks in the playoffs and don't forget a team like the oilers have to play them 8 times a year! :lol:

hmmm...interesting idea :lol:

[Nelly 0]

I completly agree with Rustybender. Also though, what about all those people with idiodic claims and suits against companies such as Walmart, casinos restaurants, etc where people "slip" and receive hundreds of thousands if not a few million? Or the people out there who get hit from behind in the cars so softly that there is barely any damage to their vehicle, yet they somehow seem to have a head/neck/back injury and receive similar compensation? Now I know that these aforementioned claims are screwed up, but I think the scale of Moore's claim is MUCH smaller considering actual damages.

[lando_8 0]

I am glad to see people addressing the legal issues, rather reviving the initial arguments. I think the only people who win in these situations are the lawyers.

$15 million is for lost wages, $2 mill is the pain, suffering, etc. I believe the $1.5 for his parents are the same.

Just being facetious here, but I do believe the lawyers are the ones who win in the end...perhaps the extra cash is so Moore will still get his estimated salary, say 7-9 million, plus the 2-3 for pain and suffering (including his parents), and the lawyers get their 6-8 million!!!

[Eazy_b97 1]

I completly agree with Rustybender. Also though, what about all those people with idiodic claims and suits against companies such as Walmart, casinos restaurants, etc where people "slip" and receive hundreds of thousands if not a few million? Or the people out there who get hit from behind in the cars so softly that there is barely any damage to their vehicle, yet they somehow seem to have a head/neck/back injury and receive similar compensation? Now I know that these aforementioned claims are screwed up, but I think the scale of Moore's claim is MUCH smaller considering actual damages.

You shouldn't really judge it against other peoples dishonesty. If I go out and kick a guy in the nuts for no reason, it isn't a good day because someone else has done something worse. You need to live off of your own morals and go from there. This is a cash grab in my opinion and he is intitled to a fair chunk of change. However he's been working the situations since day 1 to get the most media attention and cash as possible.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Because it goes beyond him just suing?

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Because it goes beyond him just suing?

How so ? He has a right to sue, he did it, and now he is doing what he can to ensure he gets all that he can. That's his right, and the only thing he will get from Bertuzzi is what he fights for right now, so he better fight as hard as he can. You call it a cash grab, which implies he is dealing in bad faith, but how ? All he's doing is looking out for himself. I am sure Moore's lawyers have contacted Bertuzzi's people to try and negotiate a settlement and obviously the two parties did not see fit to come to one. Not surprising I suppose given that a straightforward apology and admission of guilt in the first place seemed pretty hard to come by.

There is nothing wrong with picking a situation in which Bertuzzi may be more inclined to settle, although I believe Moore had far more leverage before they let Bertuzzi back into the NHL and onto the Olympic team. What price do you put on a broken neck, lost earnings of unknown amounts, and the end to your dream of playing professional hockey ? You or I cannot set that price, only the courts can, but I know if I or my child suffered a similar injury perpetrated by someone who is making millions and millions of dollars a year, is starring for his country on an international stage, and is still idolized by some to the point that he has his picture on collectible trading pieces found in several newspapers across the country, I would be suing for everything I thought I could get, because there is nothing else that Todd Bertuzzi could give me that could come close to making me whole. If I told you I would give you 15 million dollars but I would break your neck, would you take it ?

[Eazy_b97 1]

Hell Yes I would!

Simply, he has the right to sue, I am not denying that. I am saying the way he has handled things has been relatively classless in my opinion. He seems to refuse any appology, and wait for oppurtunities to build up his situation. He obviously wants a fair chunk of change of this and has a large hatred for Bertuzzi. That's understandable. I just don't feel he is handling the situation with the ethics I would have like to have seen. Other's have gone through very tough times as well, but they don't seem to have the hard feelings he does. Beukeboom's career was finished by Matt Johnson knocking him out from behind. I just was an '01 clip of Kasparitis blind siding Konowalchuk after a goal because he was upset. Both the same thing, upset players punching an opponent in the back of the head.

He has a right to sue. He has gone through something more tramautizing than I could ever imagine, but I still feel he isn't handling himself with alot of class. Maybe it's the distribution of money he is seeking that bothers me, maybe it's the fact he went against the last judges wishes to have it in Ontario, maybe it's the timing, maybe it's the interviews I read afterwards in the papers about him, maybe it's the fact he seems to have other routes he can take to have a very successful like, but this situation seems like a cash grab. You look and say, he deserves it to be a cash grab, and I completely understand why. It's just if I was in his situation, with my beliefs, I would hope I could find the strength to handle it in a different way than he is.

That's why I say it goes beyond him simply suing.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

It's just if I was in his situation, with my beliefs, I would hope I could find the strength to handle it in a different way than he is.

Well, then, you'd be far less likely to get what you deserve out of Bertuzzi. If Moore did everything you say you want him to, it still would not increase - and might decrease - the likelihood of negotiating an equitable settlement with Bertuzzi and it would still leave him with his health and future earnings impaired. You have to know Moore's people have been pursuing a settlement with Bertuzzi's, so he may well have tried all the things you suggest but struck out on that front. Moore *may* have other options available to him, which would surely pale against the career option he lost, but even if so that doesn't mean he should let Bertuzzi off the hook.

As for the amount of damages - let me ask you this. According to USA Today, Bertuzzi's salary in 2003-04 was 6.8 M. 15 M is about 2.2 years of Bertuzzi's salary at this rate. If someone broke your neck, or your father's neck, or your child's neck, thereby preventing them from earning substantial salaries of their own, would your beliefs allow you to be satistifed with the perpetrator paying you 2.2 years of his salary in compensation ? Would you deem that to be suitable punishment ? What if the perpetrator earned a lot less than 6.8 M ? Would you still be satisfied with 2.2 years of his salary ?

[Eazy_b97 1]

I'd be satisfied for what I would have likely earned, and whatever the pain and suffering costs may have been.

The way I would like to think I'd handle the situation would be much different and likely wouldn't have ended up as well financially for me. I have no problems admitting that, because I feel he is going above and beyond. Obviously you differ, and have different views. That's fine, we just don't see eye to eye on this situation.

[sherwood21 0]

I hate to chissel, but I'll add my two cents in on this whole matter. My buddy, Taylor, is Steve's cousin (yes, as well as Dominic and Mark). This whole topic came up lately on our school email system so he had his time to chime in. I'll give you guys a basic overview of what he had to say.

First, regarding the timing of the case. The case was filed over a year ago, and the actual case obviously started as soon as he was taken off the ice. He didn't just decide to be an asshole and sue him during the olympics. Remember, his lawyer was hell bent on filing this suit ASAP as the expiration date was nearing (I believe it is 2 years in Canada).

Second, the actual amount. He said that it was for lost time, emotional damage, and physical damage. Steve didn't want to sue for 15, but his lawyer was adamant and was determined to drive that number up. The actual number I was told was 7.5.

Thirdly, and not necessarily regarding this case. Steve is waiting on getting his head cleared and could be on the free agent list (as his contract with the Avs has expired) as soon as next year. He apparently is doing much better now and can do pretty much everything a normally fuctioning body allows you to do.

I believe earlier someone wrote about how you push the limit when filing a civil suit. This is completely true, and seeing as his lawyer was hell bent on suing for 15 mil., you can understand why the number is so high.

I hate to add to this topic because it runs in circles, but I thought I would chime in seeing as I've been informed of these things by his immediate family..

[Grinder 2]

Thanks for sharing that bit of info. Nice to hear a real side to the story, instead of people venting their personal anger into the issue.

[Rustybender 0]

I'd be satisfied for what I would have likely earned, and whatever the pain and suffering costs may have been.

Yearrrggghhh!!!! (that's me pulling my hair out.)

So Eazy, you would be satisfied getting what you would have earned. Super. Good for you. And everyone should be held to your impeccable moral standards. Fine. How do you know Moore does not have the same standards?

How do you know 15 million is not what Moore thinks he could have made during his career?

Before you answer, here is an exercise for you:

Pretend the attack never happened and answer these questions:

Would Colorado resign Moore after his contract expires?

How much did he sign for?

How many games has he played this season?

How big of a role is he playing for his team this season?

Has he improved or gotten worse?

How many Goals has he scored?

How many assists does he have?

How long will his career last?

How much will he be making in 2010? 2014? 2016?

What is the average salary of an NHL player in 2010? 2014? 2016?

In 7 years, will he be a below average player, an average player, above average? or a standout?

It's strange, but I can't answer any of those questions. Can You? No? Didn't think so.

So tell me again why 15 million is out of line? Be honest.

Yes Moore was a below average player, but the key word is: was. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WOULD HAVE MADE DURING HIS CAREER! You can call him below average all you want, but it don't mean jack. Past performance is not the only indicator of future results. (It's true for stocks and it's true for people.)

If I was Gary Bettman, I would be doing everything in my power to force Bertuzzi to settle. The NHL does not need a public trial giving it another black eye.

I'm sure Moore's camp has tried to settle already. Ask a lawyer which is more profitable for them and their client. Going to trial or out of court settlement? The answer is settlement. Settlements allow the lawyers to get paid while doing alot less work (which frees them up to work other cases and make more money.) Going to trial is always the last resort.

If Moore was suing for back pay, there would no debate, but he is not. He is suing for future earnings. So, a judge (maybe a jury, I don't know Canadian law,) gets to decide what is realistic. If I was that judge, my morals would tell me that no matter what value I put on his career, it will be wrong. And if I'm going to make an error, I'm going to error on the side of the victim.

This whole debate infuriates me because it is so one sided that there should be no debate. One side argues with logic and facts. The other argues with loyalty and personal attacks on the victim. The Bertuzzi supporters that believe he has been punished enough are so blinded by loyalty that they fail to see the absurdity of their statements. They, not Bertuzzi, are the true embarasment to hockey.

(Eazy, before you get bent out of shape over that last comment, it's not really meant for you. I've dealt with some grade AA idiots on some other boards and it's more directed at them. I have no idea where your loyalties lie.)

(Sorry about the book...I actually wrote more but cut a bunch out to make the post shorter!)

[Chadd 916]

If I was Gary Bettman, I would be doing everything in my power to force Bertuzzi to settle. The NHL does not need a public trial giving it another black eye.

The NHL should consider paying him off on their own.

[Rustybender 0]

That's a mighty fine idea Chadd.

I'm not so much advocating Bertuzzi getting punished. I just want to see Moore get compensated. If the NHL wanted to go that way, you wouldn't hear a peep from me against it.

[Chadd 916]

That's a mighty fine idea Chadd.

I'm not so much advocating Bertuzzi getting punished. I just want to see Moore get compensated. If the NHL wanted to go that way, you wouldn't hear a peep from me against it.

My point was simply that the NHL is the one that really suffers if this goes to court and is the only real beneficiary of a settlement. Bertuzzi shouldn't settle as the amount is astronomical and the amount of his responsibility is debatable from a legal point of view.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Before you answer, here is an exercise for you:

Pretend the attack never happened and answer these questions:

Would Colorado resign Moore after his contract expires?

How much did he sign for?

How many games has he played this season?

How big of a role is he playing for his team this season?

Has he improved or gotten worse?

How many Goals has he scored?

How many assists does he have?

How long will his career last?

How much will he be making in 2010? 2014? 2016?

What is the average salary of an NHL player in 2010? 2014? 2016?

In 7 years, will he be a below average player, an average player, above average? or a standout?

It's strange, but I can't answer any of those questions.  Can You?  No? Didn't think so.

So tell me again why 15 million is out of line?  Be honest.

Yes Moore was a below average player, but the key word is: was.  WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WOULD HAVE MADE DURING HIS CAREER!  You can call him below average all you want, but it don't mean jack.  Past performance is not the only indicator of future results.  (It's true for stocks and it's true for people.)

If I was Gary Bettman, I would be doing everything in my power to force Bertuzzi to settle.  The NHL does not need a public trial giving it another black eye. 

I'm sure Moore's camp has tried to settle already.  Ask a lawyer which is more profitable for them and their client.  Going to trial or out of court settlement?  The answer is settlement.  Settlements allow the lawyers to get paid while doing alot less work (which frees them up to work other cases and make more money.)  Going to trial is always the last resort.

If Moore was suing for back pay, there would no debate, but he is not.  He is suing for future earnings.  So, a judge (maybe a jury, I don't know Canadian law,) gets to decide what is realistic.  If I was that judge, my morals would tell me that no matter what value I put on his career, it will be wrong.  And if I'm going to make an error, I'm going to error on the side of the victim.

This whole debate infuriates me because it is so one sided that there should be no debate.  One side argues with logic and facts.  The other argues with loyalty and personal attacks on the victim.  The Bertuzzi supporters that believe he has been punished enough are so blinded by loyalty that they fail to see the absurdity of their statements.  They, not Bertuzzi, are the true embarasment to hockey.

(Eazy, before you get bent out of shape over that last comment, it's not really meant for you. I've dealt with some grade AA idiots on some other boards and it's more directed at them.  I have no idea where your loyalties lie.)

(Sorry about the book...I actually wrote more but cut a bunch out to make the post shorter!)

I'm pretty sure I outlined what I expect he would have made during his career. I suffered some major injuries during minor hockey, who is to say that a hit from behind that knocked me out didn't prevent me from playing in the NHL and making Gretzky types of impact? Logic! Bertuzzi did something awful, I haven't said otherwise, I've said, based on what I know of the situation, he isn't dealing with this in a way I feel is ethical. You say people who back Bert aren't using facts. I'm pretty sure I stated the average NHL salary, the average NHL career, and where Moore was on the depth chart at the time he went down with an injury. Those seem like pretty logical facts.

I have never once said he shouldn't sue. I have never said he deserved to suffer the injuries and hardship he has. I am saying that the way he approaches this situation is very different than the way I personally would.

I am glad (Sherwood I believe) posted his families remarks, because it's spot on with the reports I've heard from his family, second hand through a family friend of ours. They didn't play with Steve, they played with his brother(s), but appernatly know the family relatively well. It really doesn't change much for me.

As for the exercise, there's 1 simple question for you to answer. Are you sure, the next shift out, he wouldn't have caught an edge, ripped his groin and never played again? I'm not looking at the glass half full or half empty, it's right in the middle for me.

This in my opinion, is a man who has suffered something terrible, and is now doing whatever he can in his situation to make things the best for him, rather than what I deem to be right or "fair". I am not a saint, nor do I pretend to be, but I do like to think I try and help other people out and maybe do whats best for both parties involved when possible.

[Chadd 916]

Eazy:

It's always easier to be impartial when you aren't involved. I can agree with your overall analysis.

[Eazy_b97 1]

This in my opinion, is a man who has suffered something terrible, and is now doing whatever he can in his situation to make things the best for him, rather than what I deem to be right or "fair

Thats fine and good, but has Moore even gotten any retribution yet from Bertuzzi other then an apology? Maybe I forgot or something. If not, he deserves something from Bertuzzi or someone for what has happened to him; thats fairly clear cut. And I am not talking about a team insurance settlement for his retirement.

I haven't said he doesn't deserve financial retribution.

[Grinder 2]

The assertion that there is and can only be one right viewpoint to this whole sad affair is the very heart of all the posts. Everyone thinks they're right. Whether it is based on loyalty, legality, or an arbitrary decision ("Rock, paper, scissors, MATCH - Okay, I pick that guy...") not everyone sees any one situation the same way. That's why we have defense attorneys who defend pedophiles, drunk drivers, and murderers. That's why we have Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives, Liberals, elections, divided opinion on the war, and advertising wars between Pepsi and Coke.

This issue will I'm sure never be put to rest, but I'm ending my last and final post on the topic by saying it would be good if we can leave the passion and fury to Bertuzzi and Moore and their immediate circles. Whatever comes out of this, let's try to keep it real and respectable between ourselves, our fellow members, and the players we know for love of the game.

(But not the Habs. Who could ever love them? :) )

[Rustybender 0]

I promise to keep this one fairly short.

I'll answer your question first. There is nothing to say that wouldn't have happened. Somewhere back in the earlier pages I even mentioned he could have ended up a career minor leaguer. There is as much evidence saying he would be injured on his next shift as there was saying he would be the next great one. Absolutely none. We agree on this completely.

The lack of evidence was kind of my point. It's not fair for me to say he would have earned $30,000,000 just like it's not fair for you to say he would have only earned $5,000,000. We don't know what the right answer is and we never will.

The problem I have with your facts is they all deal with his situation at the time of the accident. While the judgment will have to deal with what his situation could have been. You have to take his prior incident status and use it as one of your guides, but not the only one. You also have to factor in what he could have been. Then somewhere in between you reach a fair number.

Is 15 high? Quite possibly. Is 5 low? Quite possibly. But at the end of the trial when guilt has been established and it comes time to award compensation, which is more fair? to err on the side of the victim? or to err on the side of the attacker?

[Eazy_b97 1]

Fair enough, I'm done for the topic as my views are stated, I've said my peice and heard the input from others. Thanks for those who either disagreed or agreed with me, and I appreciate everyone keeping it civil.