Looking for feedback on 29sports' new website

[Jason Harris 31]

Some of you may have read in the recap of the Toronto show that Kerry Goulet's 29sports previewed an exciting revamp to their website. The common remark was there is nothing else like it in the hockey world.

They will probably go live next week, but Kerry was hoping MSH members would be willing to look at this Preview link to provide feedback on anything -- content, format, glitches, questions, likes/dislikes, wish list. His thought is it would be easiest to make changes in this final week before going live, and that MSH members are the most savvy about hockey.

Kerry will join the conversation, but I have to tell you that between being born too early to fall into Gen X and playing hockey professionally for 17 years in Germany, he apparently didn't find time to attend Katherine Gibbs Finishing School. When I stayed with him during the show, it was hanging out there, so I had to ask him, "You do realize that you're allowed to use more than two fingers typing, right?......" ;)

[Chadd 916]

Looking better every time I see it, we appreciate the links in the arena and at the bottom of the main page.

[Jason Harris 31]

Okay, I'll start off the feedback, since I hadn't noticed they finally placed the MSH link.

1) The links at the bottom of the page appear to be a sketching, which I find hard to distinguish.

2) The links in the main page disappear after hitting the "Back To Lobby" button in arena.

(By the way, the arena should be pretty cool, because the ultimate intention is to make that an interactive, internet video game.)

3) There should be a Sound Off button for the arena.

4) The pdf's of each team's page in the Dressing Room loaded slowly.

As neat as the site is, I'm sure there will be a lot more glitches to correct, so we'd be appreciative if people can test all the links.

[Hooah4 12]

Put the links in color. It will help them stand out.

[hockeyherb 1]

Are you looking for feedback on broken links? For example I found that both the podcast and blog links give a page cannot be found error.

And I second the request for a Sound Off button on the Arena page. That gets annoying pretty quick especially since every link just opens a new page and doesn't close the arena.

[Jason Harris 31]

We'd like feedback on anything.

The podcasts had been on the original site, 29sports, but Kerry said they've been pulled down to transition to the new site.

I'd prefer that the links do not open a new window. What are your thoughts?

[Chadd 916]

We'd like feedback on anything.

The podcasts had been on the original site, 29sports, but Kerry said they've been pulled down to transition to the new site.

I'd prefer that the links do not open a new window. What are your thoughts?

New windows are always good for sending people off-site but not for different areas within your own site, unless you have some issues with certain things taking too long.

[hockeyherb 1]

We'd like feedback on anything.

I'd prefer that the links do not open a new window. What are your thoughts?

New windows are always good for sending people off-site but not for different areas within your own site, unless you have some issues with certain things taking too long.

I agree - only open a new window if taking me to another company's website (or for those team related pdf files)

- The poolie report from the arena currently takes you to the same thing as the Dressing Room link in the main lobby. Is this intentional?

- the Total Hockey link in the main lobby doesn't 'grow and shrink' like the other links when you mouse over it. It just grows and then loops back to small size.

- the red winger is totally offside in the arena just after they drop the puck!

BTW, so I'm not just picking on what needs to change, I want to add the site looks pretty awesome overall. It's nice to see non-traditional websites that don't just follow the typical left hand nav links and make the site seem more interactive. Can't wait to see the games!

[sds 0]

Do you honest criticism or do you want us to just give some light feedback?

If honesty is what you want, you aren't going to like what you read.

[Jason Harris 31]

I can't speak for Kerry, but I'd want honest feedback. Otherwise, improvements would only be incremental.

[sds 0]

I can't speak for Kerry, but I'd want honest feedback. Otherwise, improvements would only be incremental.

I'll try and keep this constructive...

1st, there is a special place in hell reserved for web designers who thrust flash-based intro pages on people. I advocate bringing back the stockades for these people.

Just ask yourself this one question - why is it there?

If the only thing you can think of is "it looks cool" then you have already started off on the wrong foot. What's its purpose? Who are they trying to impress? Is the clientele one visit and gone or do they hope to attract repeat visitors?

In your shop - did you make a special effort to annoy the hell out of each and every customer as soon as they entered the store, even if they had been there 50 times before? Do you step in front of them as they try and enter the store and accost them with same rambling greeting they have heard over and over?

Flash intos are a terrible - terrible idea for 99.9% of all websites. In fact, Flash is a terrible thing to use for ANYTHING unless it provides a true value added experience, that can't be duplicated with other techologies, for the end user - AS SEEN THROUGH THE EYES of the end user. I, the customer, could care less what YOU think is cool. And I certainly have no interest in you forcing me to view (or click to skip) something you think is cool - every single time I visit.

I won't even go into the fact that many people have flash disabled in their browsers. Firefox users, like me, use a flash blocking tool because flash based sites cause our PC CPU's to go nuts after a while due to a bug in Firefox. Do a google search for "flash, firefox, cpu" to read about this.

And don't get me started on websites that have UNSOLICITED SOUND coming from them when I visit. Nothing like opening up a site at work, where nearly everyone does their surfing, and having crap blasting out the speakers. NIIIIIIIICE. That is user friendly stuff right there. The only thing missing is a direct email to the boss and the IT department.

Now, some animations like the political JibJab or Bang! Cartoons are excellent excamples of proper Flash usage. They use the technology as a means to an end, not just because it is there.

People visit websites to get information. They need it presented to them quickly and efficiently. They want tried and true navigation. No one wants to relearn Navigation 101 on every site they visit. No one opens a book and finds the table of contents in the middle, the index in the beginning and all the odd pages printed in a row, followed by the even pages. The structure of a book is consistent, so that people can absorb the contents quickly.

What is the purpose for the annoying 2nd Flash animation after I skipped the 1st annoying Flash animation? Now, you want me to stare at another animation, listen to some guy give the same friggin' speech EVERY TIME I VISIT???? For what? So maybe I might click on the right spot in the picture to find the information I want, but you are keeping me from accessing, with all that "coolness"? What is this 1999 all over again?

The rest of the site is just so incomplete, it really can't be commented on. I see an average grey header across all the screens that is poorly done (check the compression artifacts in the words "Ice Hockey World" and the illegible url above it) and some rough place holders. Aesthetically, it looks very, very amateurish.

If he is doing this himself, without professional help, well then you get what you pay for and kudos for trying. If he is paying for this - then he has wasted his money on poor graphics and flash animation that do nothing but piss people off and turn them away (go to sabrespace.com and ask (or search for topics already discussed) on their message boards what they think of the Buffalo Sabres flash-based site, and you will get such a venomous response that they will make my words here complimentary).

There is little to salvage there other than the basic structure.

Sorry for the rant... I do mean to be helpful.

BTW, I also forgot to mention the text in the horizontal navigation bar isn't even anti-aliased and REALLY, REALLY makes it look like it is amateur hour there. What professional website has non-aliased text at that font size?

It's really bad...

[drisco487 0]

i see where u can click on each team but where do u see each teams dressing room?

[hockeyherb 1]

i see where u can click on each team but where do u see each teams dressing room?

I don't think you get to see each dressing room, that link just takes you to a team pdf page which shows you stats on the team and players.

My only issue with this feature is how will they be able to keep that updated frequently enough to make it worthwhile? And loading a pdf file isn't as efficient as me looking at a team page on a site such as CBS, NHL.COM, ESPN or Yahoo for example.

[sds 0]

i see where u can click on each team but where do u see each teams dressing room?

I don't think you get to see each dressing room, that link just takes you to a team pdf page which shows you stats on the team and players.

My only issue with this feature is how will they be able to keep that updated frequently enough to make it worthwhile? And loading a pdf file isn't as efficient as me looking at a team page on a site such as CBS, NHL.COM, ESPN or Yahoo for example.

the human interface issues have been poorly thought out, if even thought of at all. Quite frankly, I'm still not even certain what type of content they are supposed to be providing. It has something to do with hockey, but after that - who knows.

[hockeyherb 1]

My 2 cents on what SDS posted from a simple user - I have no background in web design.

I'm sure for people who work in the industry of designing web sites (as it sounds to me like SDS does - I have no idea what the hell anti-aliasing is) the flash intro has been done to death and now has become something to be looked down upon, but I don't agree with his assessment for that specific site. I think it's as much an entertainment destination related to hockey and there's nothing wrong to me with a flash intro.

The second page with Kerry walking out everytime is a little annoying but again, if I know where I'm going on the site I've probably already clicked something before he even walks out and speaks. No big deal.

[sds 0]

My 2 cents on what SDS posted from a simple user - I have no background in web design.

I'm sure for people who work in the industry of designing web sites (as it sounds to me like SDS does - I have no idea what the hell anti-aliasing is) the flash intro has been done to death and now has become something to be looked down upon, but I don't agree with his assessment for that specific site. I think it's as much an entertainment destination related to hockey and there's nothing wrong to me with a flash intro.

The second page with Kerry walking out everytime is a little annoying but again, if I know where I'm going on the site I've probably already clicked something before he even walks out and speaks. No big deal.

The problem with it is that no one - not a single user - has ever typed in a top level url: xxxxx.com and requested an obnoxious, bandwidth hogging Flash intro. No one asks to be accosted with that stuff when they 1st visit a site. Why would anyone force a user to deal with that upon every visit? Why not post that as a link, view our useless, but cool flash movie, and let people pull the information they want instead of forcing every single visitor on every single visit to bypass that junk? It isn't even any good!

also they have this scrolling line that says:

"Welcome to 29sports.com - “visit arena to see podcast by Fury Hockeyâ€"

can someone decipher that for me? What the hell does it mean? Visit what arena? That the frig are they talking about????

[Jason Harris 31]

That was great feedback, sds -- thank you. I don't agree with you completely, but I'm aware of some intended functionality. That said, I don't think you will completely agree with my response.

I think it's unfair to call it amateurish, however, since 99% of the public couldn't produce a website like that. However, every programmer has different skill sets, and it's difficult for a non-technical person to discern which skills are needed to bring their vision to fruition. A few months after this site should have been operational, Kerry realizes now that the project has to be parsed to different firms.

Regarding the broken links that go nowhere, you can blame me for that. Kerry told me they were about a week away from going live, so I suggested posting a preview to MSH members, since the person who browses MSH would likely be interested in perusing 29sports. My thought was people could say what they like and dislike, as well as call attention to glitches, which could be worked on simultaneously. As I had said earlier, having complete feedback is essential in creating the best product.

Now, the part I only agree with you partially is the Flash. I mentioned to Kerry last night that people need to be able to mute, as well as turn off, his talking head when they return to the lobby. However, the intention is Kerry will be highlighting what's new each week (I think), and suggesting where viewers might want to visit. Perhaps some method of determining whether someone has seen the latest incarnation would be useful, although that would also probably require cookies. The same thing with the opening sequence. Since the pictures will change all the time, I think some people would like to scan the pictures, as long as they have the capability to mute or skip the intro.

So did anyone ask to be subjected to this Flash animation. Of course not. Does anyone like it? Sure, some people like it on their initial visit, but most would want the capability to mute/skip. You obviously don't like it, which is fair, but I get the impression you might be older than the target demographics. Kerry's showed me something else coming down the pipe, but I recognize I was born too early -- it's just not for me. However, I think a younger audience will like it overall.

Regarding the team stats, my understanding is they will ultimately be real time. Also, there is a wish to have individualized dressing rooms, of a sort.

The scrolling line with welcome to 29sports is supposed to be a sports ticker, with the capability of turning it off in case one doesn't want to know the scores.

Again, it was my suggestion to present an unfinished website to a closed audience on MSH. It seemed to make sense to work on repairs and enhancements at the same time.

[sds 0]

It's fine that you don't agree with me - afterall you don't know me from Adam. All I can tell you is that the site is so far off the right track that the right track isn't even on the map anymore. The things that I see and the things that you have wrote break every rule of human interface design and good web design practice. I hear a lot a stuff about what Kerry wants, but has he stopped to even think about what his readers want? It really doesn't matter what little animated Kerry has to say every week if no one wants that feature (or the vast majority) or that information presented that way. His vision of what a website should be has been tried - and rejected - many years ago.

Ask yourself this - the modern web has been in full force for a decade now. Flash has been around for 8 years. There are 100's of MILLIONS of websites, yet what percentage of them have not one, but TWO flash intros? How many blare sound upon loading? How many have some funky navigation arrangment where you look for thinghs written on a building and try to guess what is behind there - while some guy is talking to you?

This is NOT innovative. It is a rehash of old, rejected ideas. He wants to be different, yet no one is asking for different. People want content - that's it. They want content, they want it organized, and they want it fast.

here is a link or 2 that touches on these points from the world wide leader in website usability. It is his entire job to study how peolple interact with websites:

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/interview-jakob-nielsen

http://www.zdnetasia.com/insight/internet/...61983822,00.htm

My wife was searching for a car tonight while the Flyers/Devils game was on. She typed in acura.com and up came the dreaded "flash loading page status bar". I sat and watched as she furiously clicked anywhere and everywhere she could to get off that page. Knowing the convo I was having here - I asked if she liked waiting for that flash animation to load. She replied - "no - it pisses me off".

THAT is the standard response of USERS. USERS don't give a crap about the fancy stuff unless they ask for it. Someone at 29sports has decided that users don't matter - only the owner's "vision" matters.

As for who Kerry hired - he hired hacks. How do I know? Because of that navigation bar and that header graphic. It might not seem like much to you, but the errors are so egregious to someone in the field that the designer's lack of knowledge can be instantly assessed. For example, what would your opinion be of a skate sharpener who didn't know that the pitch of a skate could be altered by grinding the metal in a preferential way? Would you still think that person to be knowledgeable or would you walk away KNOWING that person was a hack? Why? Because it is a BASIC thing to know if you know your field.

A scrolling ticker? I had one of those back in 1998 and no one looked at it then either. Tell me, have you EVER in your life sat in front of your computer and waited for all the scores to scroll by on one of these tickers? NOBODY does this. Who has so much time that they would wait 2 minutes to get scores that they could retrieve in 2 seconds?

I'm sorry to be a downer here, but the story of site owners who insist on bad designs will be told over and over again. Many designers are just happy to be paid and if you insist on twirling mailbox graphics or flashing rainbow horizontal bars - then that is what you get.

[Jason Harris 31]

There is no doubt interfaces will change between today and "go live." That was the whole purpose of giving a preview to MSH members -- to get feedback from the actual users. However, based on the response I saw people give to the website at the Toronto show, I think people may not be as tired of bells and whistles as you are suggesting.

For instance, people stopped to watch the pictures of older players pop up in the intro. They were excited by the prospect of playing someone at an interactive game of hockey. They liked the premise that people will speak to them from the screen. Maybe they don't care to listen to Kerry, but they do want to listen to the heroes of their youth. The scrolling ticker is just an passive feature that people can see while on the site.

I can tell you're much further into this field than the rest of us, but the response was overwhelmingly positive -- assuming the warts are gone when the site is live.

[Chadd 916]

sds

You've made your point, you don't like it.

Personally, I like the fact that it doesn't resemble everything else on the market. The learning curve for me was about 30 seconds for all of the features. I clicked on things, checked them out and moved on. I expect the same will be true for most users.

I do agree about flash intros, though I'm not as vehement about it as you are. Flash intros are largely ignored and a waste of resources to create.

As with anything on the internet, content is king. If there is a reason for people to check out the website and they find enough to make them come back, they will adapt to the interface. It's not so ponderous so as to prevent most people from coming back if they like the content.

JASON:

perhaps some popups when you mouseover the various areas with instructions would help people learn the features. That is something that you will need to be able to turn off though.

[Jason Harris 31]

I didn't have any problems using that link, Theo. Maybe you can try to back into it. Go to http://www.29sports.com, then add "/indexnew.htm/" to the end.

Chadd, that's a good idea, although Kerry told me last night that his web designers have been monitoring this thread. He said they had already compiled a list of 38 changes/fixes, including drop down menus that should take away some confusion about where to go. He said the fixes will be live, so perhaps today a link won't work, but it will be fine tomorrow.

Also, I was incorrect about the black scrolling marquis posting the scores. I forgot that the idea was to have a ticker at the bottom of each page, making it a passive feature while people are traversing the site.

[sds 0]

I didn't have any problems using that link, Theo. Maybe you can try to back into it. Go to http://www.29sports.com, then add "/indexnew.htm/" to the end.

Chadd, that's a good idea, although Kerry told me last night that his web designers have been monitoring this thread. He said they had already compiled a list of 38 changes/fixes, including drop down menus that should take away some confusion about where to go. He said the fixes will be live, so perhaps today a link won't work, but it will be fine tomorrow.

Also, I was incorrect about the black scrolling marquis posting the scores. I forgot that the idea was to have a ticker at the bottom of each page, making it a passive feature while people are traversing the site.

Jeez, who are these guys? In trying to skip the intro - I saw my browser was trying to connect to fusionstudioinc.com

I tried to go to their website and I see they are using openDNS as their DNS server? :lol: Are you kidding me? Nothing says "kids playing in a basement" more than someone using these free webservices. I'm guessing their "server" is hooked up at home to their dad's cable modem and they are using OpenDNS to route traffic to their Dell sitting in the bedroom?

So, just in case you didn't believe me when I said I know these guys aren't professionals by the quality of their work - now, you can believe me.

PS: they are also using MicroSoft FrontPage...

Anyhow... sorry for the cheap shots. I mentioned that it looked amateurish and you disagreed. However, the tools being used to develop the site are not the tools of an experienced web designer who can guide someone through the process of choosing the right technologies and the right tools to create a succesful website. I was spot on from the moment I saw the banner.

If you are fine with it, then that is all that matters. However, do these guys know their security? Do they know how to prevent cross-site scripting attacks? SQL insertion attacks? Do they know how to sanitize data from user input? Do they patch the software on the server and close known exploits? Does Kerry care that one slip in a contact us form can expose the entire site to being deleted at the bat of an eye?

The days are long past when your nephew can design a website for business purposes. The technology is too complex and the risk is too great. JMO...

[Jason Harris 31]

Maybe you should contact Kerry and offer your services. He wants to have the best website out there, and the only way he can do that is by hiring the best.

[sds 0]

Maybe you should contact Kerry and offer your services. He wants to have the best website out there, and the only way he can do that is by hiring the best.

I'm an amateur myself with 2 successful sports sites on the side. I just have been doing this since 1996, so I have years of experience reading, watching, learning, and keeping an open mind to others when they have issues with my designs. I'm an odd nut who will read a report that says given a random choice - users will click on a red button more than a blue button. I've stood over the shoulders and watched people flounder to find information on my own sites much to my dismay. But reading and watching opens your eyes to the end user... their wants and needs.

Criticizing is easy and creating is hard. I have an eye for certain user interface issues because I have had a keen interest in that for so long. I can certainly recommend people who would do an outstanding job, both graphically, organizationally, and who do deliver excellent results....

Again, the harsh criticism was to get you (or Kerry) to look long and hard at your choices. A simple "I don't like it" would have been useless feedback. I presented what I didn't like and why and linked to some resources to back up my claims. I wish you guys the best of luck! Keep an open mind!

[Jason Harris 31]

I think Kerry would be eager to speak with people whom you feel could do a better job. You can either PM me or him ("Ice Hockey World").

I believe everyone at 29sports has an open mind on the project. As I said, they've already targeted 38 fixes/improvements since the topic was created yesterday. However, I imagine the final version will include some Flash, since a 'Wow!' factor is desired and, I believe, not quite as despised universally as you think it is. That said, one of my tenets in business has always been, "The Market Speaks." If people like the content and functionality of the site, they'll visit. If they don't, Kerry will have to determine why, so hopefully he places a feedback area.