Wayne Gretzky

[MDE3 0]

But Mess was in one of the cliques. Leetch immediately latched on to Mess along with some others. But there were others in the room that did not like him.

A big problem with the Ranger's is that "Messiers Clique" did not necessarily include the coaching staff....and thus was more disruptive than unitive. His personal sense of knowing what is best for the Rangers, may have proved to be more of a hindrance then a help, and with his stature, he has been very difficult to displace as "the man".

With all the other stars they have collected it is pretty unlikely that all those ego's would automatically agree to be under Messier in the pecking order except by lip service..leading to lot's of strife....and when the coaches were below the head player in the unwritten chain of command, then you can understand what has happened.

[MDE3 0]

Is that a Joke. This guy probally doesn't know what he's even talking about.

Not sure who your comment was intended for, but Howe expected everyone to accept his dominance of the game, and if they didn't, then the message got personal. He was one of those extreme competitors who would never give an inch, or give up any ground to anyone, and Messier although not physically as large as Gordie Howe relative to his competitors, is perhaps the closest in style of play that remains today....in terms of being a hard nosed player that can get the job done.

Howe rarely ever threw blatant cheap shots, but his messages were definitely sent to intimidate, but done in such a way as to help the team win...not just to satisfy his own ego, which was not small either.

I had the benefit of being coached by one of his older brothers at the tender age of 17 and so got a first hand look in scrimmages of a bit of what "little brother" liked to dish out.

[JR Boucicaut 3760]

And Neilson...

But the telltale sign was Dave Checketts' quote from '98..."How much longer do we still have to be paying for that damn Cup?"

[hip check 0]

I have seen all of these players in their prime, except Howe and Orr. Back in the heyday of the Oilers, Gretzky didn't have to say much, just go out and DO it. He could leave locker room speeches to any of the other big leaders on the team. Messier would lead by voice and action combined. I think Yzerman is another quiet, confident leader. With the players the Wings have had in the dressing room, Yzerman could let others speak; Shanahan, Chelios, Draper... all lead by being vocal AND on the ice. Messier backed up everything he said, like a good leader should.

One point from a previous post I would question regarding Mario Lemieux not having anyone to play with: Is that referring to recent years or the Cup challenging years?

In those years there was a great team around him; Larry Murphy, Ron Francis, Jagr, the Samuellsons, Rick Tocchet, Mark Recchi, Kevin Stevens, Robert Lang, John Cullen. Not too weak, really.

[Eazy_b97 1]

I was reffering to the non cup winning years. I know the two times they won the cup they had a strong team, but recently they are not able to compete without him (obviously this year was a joke). However when he stepped into the line-up he turned them from 6th or 7th seeds into legit cup contenders.

The impression I get is Messier loves to intimidate the younger players and that worked well for him with young teams, but he was unable to lead teams with a veteran presence. He was put into a leadership role with his late 80's early 90's teams, but once he was past his prime it really seems he has turned into a cancer. Maybe its the surroundings maybe it's the man, but he doesn't seem to be leading well at all in recent years. As Chadd said the Rangers with all that talent didn't make the playoffs. Should it be his job alone? No, but I think he should have had a bigger impact it was never Messier taking control it was the GM looking for a quick fix at the deadline to get it in. Maybe he could've went in took control, said he have our team right here and got'em in it would've helped.

[Eazy_b97 1]

I agree not many people could have fixed that Ranger team, but I don't think it was impossible. Mess just wasn't the right type of leader for that kind've team. I think they needed someone who was able to handle the egos and seperate them from the men, not an easy job. This is why I believe Detroit is in trouble after losing Bowman, he was able to keep the players egos in check, now that he's gone they haven't been the same since. I think a huge part of the Rangers sucess was him and Keenan were a match made in Heaven, hard nosed no nonsense guys who love to yell and make a splash to show they are the ones in control.

[kosydar 0]

Theo- you can't compare Messier to Zetterberg. Zetterberg missed over 20 games this year. However, Mess did have good numbers this year, similar to what Larionov put up in his last year in Detroit.