Vaughn 7500s vs 7400s

[DangerIsGo 0]

I'm looking to get the 7400s (C/A, Leg, Catch and blocker) from my local sports shop, but I was wondering, what are the main differences between the 7500 'pro' line and the 7400s? The guy that I talked to said that the 7500s pro line just had some small additional padding which allowed Vaughn to tack on an additional few hundred dollars. Is that true? Is there additional things? For everything, I'm going to be getting it for $1337 (seriously...342 for C/A, 585 for legs, 152 for blocker, and 206 for catch), is that a decent price? The prices are equivalent to everything on goalie monkey but with 10% taken off.

What about the V4 line? Are there going to be 7400 equivalent of the V4 series released? Thanks

Edit: As far as Catch/Block/Legs go, for a grand total of under $1200, what do you think would be sufficient for a mens league? I'm not looking into anything really serious (and at that point, I would have a much higher budget) but at the same time, I don't want to get injured by faulty equipment. What about Smith, Simmons, Brians, and Koho 700s? Are they all 11" NHL Spec?

Edit 2: For the Vaughn 7400s, The reason I like them is because I was able to go to the store and try them on which is one buying point. I won't be able to do that with the other ones, no?

[Law Goalie 147]

The principal difference has nothing to do with 'additional padding.' The 7500 is made in North America; the 7400 is made offshore. This can entail some small differences in main material quality, but generally has to do with the level of craftsmanship.

It is generally true that equipment made in North America will be of superior quality and durability. Having said that, it depends greatly on where exactly the equipment is coming from. I've seen stuff from the CCM/RBK St. Jean plant that was remarkably bad, even though most of it wa excellent. Most people I've asked have said that Vaughn's Canadian product is much better than its American. I have absolutely never heard of anyone being hurt because of lower-grade foams in an offshore pad (though it certainly has happened with C/A's and gloves), but I have seen offshore pads disintegrate along the seams and bindings under very little stress.

You will notice an enormous difference in quality between the 7400s and Smiths, not to mention that the Smiths are basically a much more evolved version of the Velocity design (unsurprisingly). You'd notice a similar but smaller difference between the 7400s and Simmons gear, which is fairly well made but nothing like Smith; Simmons also suffers from some slightly odd design decisions that seem more about an odd sort of marketing than anything else. You'll notice very little difference in quality between the 7400s and the Koho 700s or Brian's G-Series (assuming you've ruled out the $2k+ Zero-G's), since all are offshore products. All are NHL-spec, as far as I know.

I think it would be safe to say that if you like the Velocity design, and you're willing to pay a little more, you'd be far better off with Smiths. Pete does have demo sets, if you want to take them for a spin.

[DangerIsGo 0]

Why are manufacturers, such as Vaughn and Smith that I have seen so far, using nylon straps with plastic buckles instead of the traditional holed leather strap/metal buckle system? Wouldn't the plastic buckle be susceptible to breakage upon any kind of serious impact? Is it possible to get the Vaughns or Smiths in the standard leather strap system? That's the only thing I dislike about the new Vaughn design and wish I had the option to revert back. Same goes for with the Smiths.

[Law Goalie 147]

There are a couple of quite practical reasons.

First, switching from traditional leather straps to nylon, polyester or polypropylene straps with quick-release buckles along the shin and knee generally reduces the weight of a pad by about 1/2 pound. There's some variance in this, since some cheaper pads use a thinner, cheaper grade of leather strapping, some start out with more straps than others, etc., but it's almost always between 1/3 and 3/4 of a pound per pad. This is nothing to sneeze at - marketing campaigns have begun over less.

The second reason is end-user convenience. Some people - especially the parents of young goalies - struggle for repeatable results with leather straps: unless the straps are a light colour and you're clever enough to bring a pen to mark the ideal spots, it's hard to get the right hole every time. A quick-release straps is adjusted once, and thereafter takes about two hassle-free seconds to clip in. In a beer league, those seconds can add up: having quick-release straps can make the difference between not having and having a warmup, if you're running a bit late.

As for durability, let me put it this way. I have never seen an NHL goalie leave a game because of a broken quick-release buckle. I have never broken one myself, nor seen one broken at the level I play. I have heard of various other beer leaguers and kids breaking them, but most of the cases were about 5 years ago. I have had manufacturers tell me that they have had one or two requests for extra buckles per year, as compared with hundreds of custom pad orders. My conclusion is this: quick-release buckles are susceptible to impact breakage, but manufacturers have found better buckles which are less susceptible, and, in any case, the risk of exposing a buckle to a direct, high-speed impact is extremely low unless you regularly (1) flop around so much during games that the outside of your leg often faces the shot, or (2) face practices (as a kid) and/or warmups, stick-and-puck, etc. (as an adult) during which idiots are shooting from multiple angles at once, and catching you on the outside of the leg. Both of those are preventable, or at least mitigable situations. As for bad-angle shots, to be frank, your buckles shouldn't be exposed to the shot there either.

I believe it is possible to have Smiths made with all leather straps; he uses leather straps on the boot and thigh by default. Having said that, Pete is pretty confident of his design, and he may say no; he reserves the right to refuse any modifications that he thinks will compromise the design.

[DangerIsGo 0]

How long has Smith been in business? How come there are no NHL goaltenders with Smith pads? I just wonder because last time I went with the 'smaller guy', I paid extra for quality stuff made in USA but he closed shop (not hockey related) and I was pretty much screwed as far as warranty/replacements go (not that I had an issue but if I had...).

Also, what about C/A? Is the Vaughn 7400/7500 good? Currently I have a McKenney but its too big on me and really ratty. Again, I would like to try on these things before buying. I didn't like the way the Reeboks felt and the Bauer Vapor, I felt, didn't provide adequate coverage as the Vaughns did. The TPSs that they had were 1) large and 2) heavy..much heavier than the Vaughn 7500. I'm not trying to say I have my heart set on Vaughn, just out of the few models that the shop had, The Vaughn was the most comfortable and lightest, albeit the most expensive (at $460). What is a good recommendation? Remember, I'm not looking for any kind of really serious play, a men's league at the most right now, but at the same time, I don't want to sacrifice protection. Thanks again.

[kevintung_2k 0]

Smaller companies are unable to afford the licensing costs to get their name approved to be shown in the NHL--I believe it costs about $20,000 per year to do so.

For the C/A, you want to get the most protective you can afford, since you will face the odd player who carries a bomb of a shot. Vaughn 7500 C/A's are comfortable, but some feel it's not especially protective on the arms. If you have the money, it's a solid choice for a C/A.

For pads, I'd recommend getting used pro-level pads from ebay.

[Law Goalie 147]

Sorry, I thought you were aware of the Smith backstory.

The reason why I said that Smith pads are an evolved Velocity is that Pete Smith in fact personally designed and built the original Velocity when he worked at Vaughn. Since then, the Vaughn design has remained more or less the same, and Pete has made significant improvements both in performance and in durability. Before Vaughn, he worked at Vic, where he made some of the earlier modular foam pads for Barasso and others. Several NHLers have in fact used Smith-brand pads, albeit without logos for the reasons Kevin mentioned above. Most recently, Tim Thomas and Kevin Weekes had sets of the Smith 5000s.

This is a man with a long track record - he just prefers to work for himself instead of for a company. Michel Lefebvre prefers to work for a bigger company: to each his own. Pete Smith is no 'small guy.' Call him an independent, if you like. He's not going anywhere, and his customer service is second to none. He also includes extra replacement parts in a kit with every set of pads he makes, so you're covered there.

I'm really not the guy to ask about C/A's. I will always tell people to get a Brown C/A, and if they can't afford it, a McKenney - the poor man's Brown, with 90% of the protection at 60% of the price. Both are very traditional designs, as opposed to, say, the Reebok, which I loathe for entirely personal reasons. Don't cheap out here: a shot to the sternum or heart is about the only way you're going to die on the ice. Brown's are absolutely bomb-proof, and McKenney is almost as good.

Now, as for Kevin's recommendation to buy used pro-level pads on eBay to maximise your value for money, I whole-heartedly agree. The OP did not, however, talk about buying used, so I assumed he was only interested in new gear.

Pads are by far the best thing to buy used. They don't become less protective over time in any meaningful way, and they don't tend to be magnets for bacteria. C/A's and gloves, however, can be disgusting when used, unless the previous user took very good care of them. Gloves and C/A's are also susceptible to break-down over time (again, except Brown's, which are seemingly ageless unless you face years of NHL practices), so again, buying them new and the pads used is the best plan.

[DangerIsGo 0]

Currently I have a McKenney CA 775 Pro C/A which I got for ~$100 from the shop. It's a large though and many years old. This one actually: http://www.hockeyworld.com/index/page/prod...rm+Pads-+Senior Would mine be sufficient? I do know that I need better pants since the Helites that I currently own don't provide that much protection on my upper thighs.

How much do browns usually go for? I saw the McKenney 870 from hockeyworld for $280. http://www.hockeyworld.com/index/page/prod...rm+Pads-+Senior

Seems kinda low when thats a bit more than half of the top Vaughn model. How much do the Browns usually go for? I cant find any place online with them.

Edit: On McKenney's site they say the following in their FAQ:

"If pricing of similar products seems close to McKenney pricing, it is usually because our competitor's product is made in "China". B aware the difference between "Made in Canada" and "Designed in Canada". "Designed in Canada" does not mean that is is made in Canada."

So is the 870Pro in this case, Made in Canada or Designed in Canada (and also wondering, is everything McKenney Made or Designed in Canada?)

[Law Goalie 147]

The 755 is solid piece of gear - it's the rough equivalent of a Brown 1700. Both are sufficient for facing decent men's-league shooters. (You will, however, definitely want to replace the Helite pants - they were a disaster.)

The 870 is a definite step up: notice the more substantial shoulder-floaters, the breast-plate that sits over the sternum and heart, the more substantial arm-padding, and the smaller, more articulated blocks making up the main chest unit. You'll need to spend some major time breaking it in, too, like any good C/A.

IME, you'll be just fine in the 755. You could also order a breast-plate from McKenney and have it sewn on by a cobbler or a competent seamstress for a few bucks locally, if you wanted a small but important upgrade.

Brown C/A's are all over the place in retail pricing because John's wholesale is quite high, and he really pushes people to stock his whole line before they get any kind of price break; he also charges a bomb to order direct. I haven't inquired about pricing recently, but The Hockey Shop has last year's top-of-the-line C/A for $650 (Brown 2200). The Brown website is brownhockey.com. Just FYI, there are still a great many NHL goalies using Brown C/A's, even though he's very much off the radar in the retail scene even in Canada. I was talking with one of the bigger retailers in Toronto just before Christmas, and their goalie guy was lamenting that Brown was becoming harder and harder to stock because of the way he negotiates with retailers - but the man still makes the best core protection on the market. Sadly, his pads are very, very traditional in design, and just don't sell well. There was a time when most of the NHL's goalies wore his stuff from head to toe.

Everything McKenney is made under Trevor McKenney's direct supervision in Mississauga.

As far as pro pants, your options are pretty wide at retail. The RBK Premier design is just fine, though I slightly prefer the Vaughn Velocity. I also really like the Bauer Supreme design (also used in the Vapor XXX, though not in the Vapor X:40) with the built-in Armadillo knee-pads, though they are technically not NHL legal any more, and are being put on clearance as a result (currently $150 at Goaliemonkey). McKenney pants are also very nice, though definitely more traditional in design. Brown are fabulous, but again, good luck finding them.

If you have to stick to your ceiling of $1200 (or $1337, whatever) for the pieces we've so far discussed, my specific advice is as follows, for what it's worth:

- keep the C/A you have, and invest that money in a pair of pro-grade pants ($150-$250)

- buy a pair of good-condition used pro pads ($400-$600)... these, for example...

- buy a pair of pro-grade gloves to match whatever pads you find

- spend any leftover money on a Maltese Gel Combo (neck/sternum protector) from maltesehockey.com (who also very quietly make a lot of gear for the NHL)

What's your mask situation?

[DangerIsGo 0]

I just got a Bauer NME 7 for xmas (along with a Lexan dangling neck guard).

As far as catch/blocker go, I was trying on the Vaughn 7500 Pro Spec (new) at the store and loved the way they felt. Would that be a decent choice? They also have a decent selection of used stuff so when I head there today, Ill see what they have but I can get the blocker/catch if thats a good choice.

I had a feeling that the pants had to go. Where would one go about getting a breast plate from McKenney? Is it in their accessories?

When did the new law pass that NHL goalies only had to wear approved manufacturers equipment? Was it part of the lockout deal?

Edit: I own some Brian's pads that I got used from the store, but I dont know their size, I dont know their model, the straps and material around the skate is deteriorating. Probably many years old, but I am unsure.

http://www.goaliestore.com/board/Classifie...ge=DSCN0292.JPG

Those, except in red, the Altramax Air Pac. They are 12" though.

[Law Goalie 147]

Ah. May I ask if you have the receipt? Whatever money was spent on that mask could be much better invested... it's not a terrible mask, but you can do better in terms of a mask, and could put that money towards pants, gloves, etc.

Call up McKenney and ask, or do it via email. It's not a standard part, so you will have to inquire. Just explain that you're thrilled with the 755 but would like to add a little extra protection to that sensitive area. The worst they'll do is say no. That C/A is just fine for men's league play - it just wouldn't hurt to add the breast-plate.

It's not a question of only being allowed to *wear* certain manufacturers, but of paying for the right to display your company's logos on major pieces (pads, gloves, sticks), ie. to advertise in NHL games. The same is true of players' equipment. There are tons of threads about it.

What's the question about the Brian's pads?

[DangerIsGo 0]

If it is a decent pad. I know they are probably beyond their time, especially being 12" but i'm actually at the shop right now browsing their selection.

They do have Bauers but they are the X40. Alongside of them they have the

velocity 7500s which i'm contemplating. And they have the itech rx9 pro pants, the reebok hpg pro and the Vaughn epic 8800s.

Edit: what would be your input about the Vaughn 7500 pro gloves? I mean ideally I'd like all new matching gloves and pads so I'm willing to hold off on the gloves but i think I'm going to pull the trigger on the velocity pants. For the set would you say either the 7500s or the smiths? Let's say I were to get all pro spec for under 2g.

[Law Goalie 147]

The Airpac was a well-built pad, but it's massively illegal (as you know), was a rather bulky pad even for its time, and totally unsuited to modern butterfly play.

On the pant front, I'd go with your instincts on the Velocities, but do take the time to do a good head-to-head with the Reeboks. They are very different but equally solid designs. The Velo will sit relatively snugly to the leg, whereas the Reebok 'floats' a little more. The key thing is to try the pants with whatever goalie jock you're using: they need to cooperate, or you'll be miserable in net.

If your budget is closer to $2K, and you're sold on the Velocity-style gloves and pads, there's no debate: keep the McKenney C/A, get whatever pants you like, and order a full set of Smiths. His wait-times are pretty reasonable this time of year.

The Velocity 7500 gloves are fine, if you like them; but if you like them, Smith's gloves will almost certainly be both better and are cheaper to boot.

There is also, of course, the point that Smith's pads (and gloves) are custom-built to your legs and hands.

If you're going to save money anywhere, save it on the pads: buy used pro-grade, and order new gloves to match.

I would strongly suggest returning your mask. You can get a Hackva from Don Simmons (donsimmons.com) or Perani's for $299, and they're typically available for about that from most local places. Hackva masks are a big step up from the NME 7 in terms of protection, and they come with a lifetime warranty on the shell. There's a lot of information and many reviews out there, so just look around. The chief thing is that Hackva uses a *much* better layup (layering of materials), with good quality fibreglass, a full layer of aramid (which Dupont trademarks as Kevlar) for additional impact diffusion and and another full layer of carbon fibre for stiffness. The NME 7, by contrast, uses a less ideal injection-moulding process and much cheaper, less protective layering of fibres, and no aramid at all. Hackva are bar-none the best retail value in masks you can find in terms of protection for money; the only thing that keeps them from being a pro-grade mask are a less-than-optimal resin (polyester, as opposed to high-quality epoxy) and not quite so refined a finish on the shell.

There is some real merit in the idea of injection-moulded masks with fibre cores - chiefly that they're almost impossible to chip, unlike painted masks. For low-level play, this means they will at least look better over time, but the tradeoffs in strength and impact-diffusion just aren't worth it, IME. I've used maybe the best injection-moulded mask ever made (the NXI Phantom), and while it was a lovely mask, it's nothing like as protective as a pure fibreglass mask made with a good resin.

Your head, your neck, your crotch, and your heart are the four things you need to protect most: don't blow all your money on pretty pads and skimp there.

[DangerIsGo 0]

I think that's what I'm going to do: return the mask and get a Hackva. http://www.donsimmons.com/ice_hockey_goali...&menu=masks In particular. Would you consider Hackva the poor-mans Warwick? I looked at the Warwicks and saw they were upwards of $1000+.

Edit: Why are the cats eye masks non HECC/CSA certified while the standard cage is? At what level is that kind of certification required?

I'm going to contact Pete today and see if he has any demo sets I can try.

[Law Goalie 147]

Just FYI, the Hackva masks that Simmons markets as "Carbon Fibre" are exactly the same as the plain-finish ones (this one, $299) in terms of construction and protection: *all* Hackva masks have a full layer of carbon fibre. The mask you linked to (and all the others with that similar 'look') have a purely decorative layer of texalium under the clear-coat. Texalium is an aluminum-coated fibre with ZERO structural significance.

For Simmons to call those masks "Carbon Fibre" is slightly weaselly marketing; Gabe himself is very clear that there are "Texalium-finish" masks, ie. purely for appearance's sake.

If you want to spend the extra $90 to look a little bit cooler, fair enough. I'd suggest spending that money on a Maltese Combo instead.

HECC and CSA are the American and Canadian (respectively) bodies responsible for certifying a great many safety products, including hockey helmets and goalie masks. Pro-style cat-eye cages *cannot* pass certification base a stick's butt-end and/or blade can pas through the large eye openings. Whether or not you need a HECC/CSA-approved mask is up to your league: generally speaking, it;s only required in youth leagues, but that is beginning to chage. I've always used straight-bar approved cage because I simply don't want to take the risk.

[DangerIsGo 0]

You're right I don't need the flashy coating and will save myself $90. http://www.donsimmons.com/ice_hockey_goali...35&menu=pro

I will contact McKenney and ask about the

chest plate. I had already contacted Pete but am awaiting a reply.

How are the smith gloves in terms of comfort and required force to close? The reason I ask is because when I was at the store they had a reebok or itech ( I forgot) glove which literally had no finger elastic backing (I'm guessing to reduce weight) but at the same time, I really didn't like how that felt. There were also a few other gloves which required a lot of strengh to close (probably needed some serious break in) but the vaughns felt right in my grip.

Edit: just wondering but how do you know so much about goalie equipment?

Edit 2: BTW, I have been using the epic 8800 double cup jock. Is that solid enough?

What's the difference between that combo and the dangling lexan neckguard?

[Law Goalie 147]

The Epic jock is solid. My one piece of advice is to remove the secondary Shock Doctor cup (there's a little velcro flap) and put it into the cup-pocket of a pair of compression tight (UnderArmour, Nike, whatever). That is a two true-cup system that will keep everything securely in place, and is actually more protective than a 'double-cup jock' that floats away from your body; you can get some nasty stingers that way.

Smith gloves are extremely comfortable - but it's worth a word or two on closure. There are several things going on: the angle of the break (relative to the natural position of your thumb), the position of the break (relative to the knuckles of your fingers), the thickness of the protection in the palm (often referred to as "pro palm" for heavier weight and "practice palm" for the heaviest, although what those terms actually mean can vary), and the way the glove is strapped to your hand. Taking away protection in the palm *generally* means thinning out the piece of felt and/or foam that sits in the palm behind the break; this means that making the glove 'easier to close' necessarily involves removing protection. That being said, certain gloves will feel 'easier to close' because the angle and position of the break and the strapping agree more with your hand: perhaps because of the shape of your hand, or the kind of baseball glove you used as a kid, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "finger elastic backing". I can, however, say with some confidence that if you liked the way the Vaughn gloves felt in your grip, you'll like the way a Smith glove feels - and perhaps even more.

While Smith will not change the angle or position of the break in his gloves, he can make the palm thicker or thinner at your request. I would, however, suggest going with his stock palm or asking for it to be just a tiny bit easier to close/lighter in protection.

Most of what I know I know through research (which is basically what I do) or asking people who build equipment. They're usually pretty forthcoming. It's not that hard to find this stuff out, if you know how to look for it. I also make a point to check out absolutely every bit of gear I can (switch pads and gloves with a guy at at skate, whatever), just so I have a reference-case. I also regularly tear apart and rebuild my own gear to make small improvement or just to experiment, so I have a pretty good idea of how it all fits together.

[kevintung_2k 0]

You should get the Texalium coating on your Hackva mask to protect the paint from chipping, if you are concerned about appearance--the vast majority of people who complain about paint chipping only got the basic coating.

[Law Goalie 147]

That's only partially true - bear in mind that the texalium is still beneath the clearcoat, which can and will chip; when it does, the texalium will fray. It's just different kinds of wear. There *isn't* any coloured paint on a texalium Hackva - the aluminum in the texalium is itself coloured - but the clearcoat on top will still chip.

I still remember that idiot on GSBB having conniptions about visible damage to texalium as though it was integral to the shell.

[DangerIsGo 0]

The store is having a clearance on the vapor XIX and XIVs goal skates. They said they were being discontinued and replaced with the one95/75/55 series. With the prices that they are, are they worth it? Approx $120 I currently use Bauer Profile 1000s. Used. Old. But comfy that I had put new soles in them and they conformed to my foot.

edit: I do recall a few times where I would get a nice shot to the arm with the mckenney on and remembered it stinging yet it wasn't even a hard shot. Could that be because the equipment needs to be replaced or because it hit in a weird location?

[kevintung_2k 0]

For skates, I'd recommend whatever fits most comfortably. The Vapor line of skates has been known to have issues with cracking of the cowling.

[Law Goalie 147]

When I made my original reply (which appears to have been deleted) I was, I will admit, unduly harsh about the Vapor skates. They did not have a good track record for durability because of their Lexan cowlings - the first, only, and probably last Bauer skate to have such issues - and while a few people loved them, they seemed to have issues with fit and support for many.

My advice with skates would be to try on everything in your price-range and see what fits best. With the exception of the Graf 705 and the Graf goalie skates, there is little correlation between the way any company's player and goalie skates fit or perform. A One95 player skate, for example, is made on a completely different last than the One95 goalie skate, and both use different materials. The recent CCM and RBK lines are notable because, despite being from the same parent company and fitting more or less the same, they have quite differently-shaped heels: the CCM Vectors and U+ (IIRC) have a sharply-tapered, V-shaped heel, while the RBK lines have more rounded U-shaped heels.

Don't worry about the odd stinger in the arms of a C/A - you'll get that with almost anything except a top-of-the-line Brown or a Vaughn C/A made personally for a high-level pro. It's not really about how hard the shot was, but about where it happened to hit, and the angle of the puck as it hit. If you catch an edge of the puck in a sensitive area, the force is transmitted through a much smaller surface; if that hits you, for example, at the base of your biceps, you're going to feel it.

[DangerIsGo 0]

Law, McKenney contacted me back and said they don't sell the breast plate as a separate part. :(

[Oykib 0]

Best way to look at it is, "Pain is just weakness leaving the body". That was what my drill told me,.. They also told me they were God :)

[Law Goalie 147]

That goes for the arms, but as for the sternum and ribcage, I'd rather not feel anything more ephemeral than pain leaving my body, if you know what I mean... :)