Warrior Ritual Debriefing Thread

[Law Goalie 147]

Since one of our own had a chance to demo and review the new Pete Smith-designed Warrior Ritual pads at the MSH VI skate in Michigan, I figured I'd open a thread by way of tossing him a few questions and getting some discussion going on what may be the ultimate refinement of the 'butterfly pad' that was, of course, originally Dr. Smith's monster.

The first question I had is mainly aimed at dispelling the moronic nitpicking that went on when the first few pairs of aesthetic sample pads started showing up in shops and on cell phone cameras; most of this had to do with the claim that the synthetic leather on the pad, and the calf-wing in particular, was 'baggy' or 'loose' or 'not properly sewn.' Can we assume that with a pair of working demos no such 'problems' were in evidence?

I'm also curious to know, especially since wex did remove the thigh-strap in his review, what the modular (aka adjustable, replaceable) strapping throughout the pad looks like. On the original Smith 6000 series, all the modular strapping was done the way the boots-straps on the Ritual pads are done: a series of slots punched into heavy, strap-grade synthetic leather, sewn into the back of the pad. On some of the Ritual samples, however, this had been replaced at the thigh (and possibly everywhere except the boot) with the webbing loops and Slik-clips that were used on the Messiah pads. I'm curious to know which was used on the demos, and whether the punched leather slots, if not standard, are still a custom option.

For reference, I'd also like to know whether the demo pads wex tried have the stock rounded boot or the 'squared' (that is, only slightly rounded) option; they definitely don't seem to be the 'tapered boot' option.

Thanks!

[Axxion89 32]

To go along with what Law Goalie has stated, I really wish to know more about the strapping, in particular the nylon/plastic buckles. Having the swagger pads with the nylon knee and thigh plastic buckles, I have had one break and three others constantly come undone during games quite frequently and have stitching on them come apart to the point where they will break any day now. I would like to know if warrior had addressed this issue by fortifying the straps and also, switching to a more rugged and harder to come undone (couldn't think of a better word) buckle. I am really excited for the pads but this issue is a deal breaker for me. I have heard nothing but great things about these pads and really look forward to hearing more!

[Law Goalie 147]

When you say the buckles are coming undone, do you mean the actual male/female side-release buckles are separating, or the Slik-clips that attach to the webbing loops on the back of the pad, or are the straps themselves slipping backwards out of the male end of the buckles? When you say the stitching is coming apart, I assume you're referring to the Slik-clips.

Put it this way: I've never heard anyone dissatisfied with Smith's strapping. If there was an issue, he'll have taken care of it.

[Hallsy86 0]

I've used nylon straps/plastic buckles for years (mostly on Smith pads) and have never had an issue with them. I'd take them over leather any day.

Eric

[lukejameslarson 5]

I've never had a buckle on my pads break, crack, or otherwise fail, but If Axxion has the first-gen Swagger pads, I'm not surprised that he's had problems.

I bought a pair of them, and one of the nylon loops that connect the Slik-clips to the pad ripped clean out of the outside gusset of the pad, just by tugging on it a bit.

The stitching on those loops, along with the velcro portions of the calf and knee straps, and the fact that mine ripped before I even took the pads out onto the ice was enough for me to send them back to Warrior. They sent me a new set of the '11 model Swagger, and the stitching on them looks better, and has held up without any issues at all.

[Axxion89 32]

When you say the buckles are coming undone, do you mean the actual male/female side-release buckles are separating, or the Slik-clips that attach to the webbing loops on the back of the pad, or are the straps themselves slipping backwards out of the male end of the buckles? When you say the stitching is coming apart, I assume you're referring to the Slik-clips.

Put it this way: I've never heard anyone dissatisfied with Smith's strapping. If there was an issue, he'll have taken care of it.

Both Law Goalie, the male/female plastic connector will come undone somehow, and I cannot find the reason why and the stitching of the loop that holds the slick clip is falling apart and is holding together by a thread (literally). I think I should just get in touch with Warrior over the issue since LukeJ had the same issue but if Smith has experience with the buckles, then he probably fixed the issue but I would still like to see how the webbings are stitched in as I would still prefer all leather for the durability than the ease of buckles.

[Law Goalie 147]

You can definitely use Smith-style leather straps on the Rituals (any series), because they'll work with the leather slots, the leather tabs (as on the calf-wing and knee-wing) and the revised webbing loops alike. I do not, however, believe that all-leather strapping is available as anything other than a Ritual Pro custom option, but I may be wrong about that. I think Goaliemonkey may actually have a few Itech straps on clearance that are basically the same thing... those might work on your Swaggers with no modification.

That is very, very odd that the side-release buckles themselves are coming apart; they're supposed to have pretty major tensile strength, and you shouldn't be able to release them without pressing both sides in.

If you want a quick fix, you can grab some Duraflex Rock Lockster buckles from REI (or MEC, can't recall if you're a Canuck or a Yank), or any ITW Fastex equivalent, and substitue those for the defective buckles. They're about ¢50 apiece, usually. Then it's just a matter of sewing the Slik-clip sling back together. That will probably be quicker than calling in for support even with a company as customer-driven as Warrior, and it'll tide you over until you can get the replacements in.

[Gummer12 134]

The first question I had is mainly aimed at dispelling the moronic nitpicking that went on when the first few pairs of aesthetic sample pads started showing up in shops and on cell phone cameras; most of this had to do with the claim that the synthetic leather on the pad, and the calf-wing in particular, was 'baggy' or 'loose' or 'not properly sewn.' Can we assume that with a pair of working demos no such 'problems' were in evidence?

I was unaware of these 'accusations' so I didn't pay particularly close attention to that aspect.. but everything seemed to be well made and tight.

I'm also curious to know, especially since wex did remove the thigh-strap in his review, what the modular (aka adjustable, replaceable) strapping throughout the pad looks like. On the original Smith 6000 series, all the modular strapping was done the way the boots-straps on the Ritual pads are done: a series of slots punched into heavy, strap-grade synthetic leather, sewn into the back of the pad. On some of the Ritual samples, however, this had been replaced at the thigh (and possibly everywhere except the boot) with the webbing loops and Slik-clips that were used on the Messiah pads. I'm curious to know which was used on the demos, and whether the punched leather slots, if not standard, are still a custom option.

The top two straps were nylon webbing with nylon buckles.. The thigh's attached above the thigh rise on the inside, and on the knee on the outside, Just above the buckle for the knee strap. They were removable/replaceable with the Slik-Clips. Same for the nylon buckles. The two calf and boot straps were leather, and used the tabbed straps and the slots on each side. On the bottom of the boot, there were three or four slots sewn onto the bottom of the boot so you could adjust where you put your boot strap. There was also an elastic calf strap for the calf wrap, which I removed too.

I did not get a pic of the back side of the pads, but there was someone who did, I forget who it was.. If whoever that was could post that up, I'd greatly appreciate it.

For reference, I'd also like to know whether the demo pads wex tried have the stock rounded boot or the 'squared' (that is, only slightly rounded) option; they definitely don't seem to be the 'tapered boot' option.

[Law Goalie 147]

Thanks, wex. About the boot, I was mainly curious because the boot in your picture (maybe just as a result of the angle) looks more rounded than the one on the red/yellow/brown demo set that Goaliecrease.net showed in their review, along with the black/silver ones you tried. I'm just trying to figure out where in relation to those two sets of demo pads the stock 'rounded' and the 'squared' custom option lie.

[Gummer12 134]

that one??

[Law Goalie 147]

Yeah, those ones. I was thinking of this angle in particular, which makes the boot on the above pads look a little closer to square than yours:

For those who aren't clear on what I was getting at with the straps, you can see the two parallel sets of heavy, slotted strap leather on either side of the boot above; on the picture below, which also shows how Smith has incorporated a Reebok P4/late P3 extension to the knee-block, you can see a single, less integral tab on the lower thigh:

I really, really hope that the SP6000-style slots are available as a custom option...

[Phantom 19]

The only thing I know about the Rituals is that I should have bought them when they were still Smith 6000s. I have the 5000s and should have just pulled the trigger on 6ks instead. I'm kicking myself.

[Axxion89 32]

Can't wait to see these in store, going to be on the top of my consideration list with Vaughn for my first job/graduation gift to me!

[Law Goalie 147]

I wouldn't kick yourself too hard, Phantom. Overall, the Ritual is a much more refined version of the 6000s. Yeah, it was nice to be able to get a graphic-free version made by Dr. Smith himself on the cheap, but you can't begrudge the man an opportunity to work on a bigger stage with more resources at his disposal. My preference for the SP6000 style strapping is almost purely personal, which is why I was interested in it as a custom option rather than arguing for it as a better way to build the retail pads.

With the SP6000 pads, we were roughly where Vaughn was when Smith first designed the Velocity for them; the only things Vaughn has really changed in the past decade, apart from NHL-imposed specs, are slightly taller stock thigh-rises and the move away from shredded 'Shred Pak' foams to sheet foams. The 6000 was a groundbreaking design that the Ritual refines. Even Pete would tell you that the 6000 was not without its kinks, which he's now been able to work out.

[Law Goalie 147]

For reference and my own edification, I dug up some pictures of the strapping from Smith's 6000-series pads that show some of the similarities and differences between the 6000 and the Ritual in this respect:

In the above two shots (taken at the lateral knee) you can see the way the buckles pass through the slots, and then are bolted into place with a machine screw and nut.

Here's a shot of a strap passing through the slots on the medial side of the thigh-rise.

And just for fun, a shot of how the calf-straps work.

The calf is a curious point for the 6000 design, since technically, NHL Rule 11.2(B) precludes the use of any velcro (3M or otherwise) on the calf pieces. Now, this isn't as absolute as it sounds. A great many pads have some velcro on the calf, at least to facilitate elastic calf-locks, so Whitmore has allowed that much to pass. It could be that he interprets the rule to mean no velcro on the calf-wing (aka outer calf-protector) alone -- but there are still some NHL verified pads that have the calf-lock velcro there. If, however, you read between the lines, the reason why that clause (" No zippers, Velcro, or Velcro attachments are allowed.") is in the rulebook is not to outlaw strapping, but to outlaw the easy attachment of additional, non-legal padding (beyond the 1", formerly 1.5" thickness limit) which could be easily removed before an inspection. While the Smith 6000/Ritual velcro calf strap setup could allow that, its purpose is clearly strapping rather than padding.

[Law Goalie 147]

Goaliemonkey just put up diagrams for the basic Ritual Pro Custom options that answer one of my questions: the stock boot *is* the square/rounded one, and the tapered boot is the only other option -- in short, that there isn't a 'more square' or 'more rounded' version of the stock boot.

For those who are curious, the weight difference between 420D nylon and 'Classic'/'Carbon' (a lighter grade of Weave/'Robocop' Jenpro) is not insignificant.

1000 Denier Cordura nylon has a weight of 9.4 oz. / square yard.

500 Denier Cordura nyon weighs 5.29 oz. / square yard.

Jenpro weighs 17.7 oz. / square yard.

This is straight from the manufacturer. It's hard to say exactly what the surface area of the leg-channel is, but I'd guesstimate about 1/4lbs per pad weight drop in taking the 420D option over Carbon, which is comparable in weight to Cordura.

As far as durability, 420D holds up just fine, but it *can* begin to pill and wear through, especially if it gets scratched up by Velcro from time to time; PU leather in the leg-channel would be well-nigh indestructible, but seems like overkill to me. Then again, historically, I haven't been hard on the leg-channels of my pads.

[DangerIsGo 0]

So now that its mid march 2012, and I have noticed the Rituals on Warriors site, does anyone know if they have been officially released to retail stores or to buy online? Any pricing available?

[Law Goalie 147]

All prices approximate, but confirmed through major retailers:

Custom Pro pads (made in Montreal, under Smith) = $1499 inclusive of modifications

Custom Pro/SE glove = $499 incl.

Custom Pro/SE blocker = $339 incl.

Senior Pro pads = $999

Senior Pro glove = $339

Senior Pro blocker = $239

**Senior Pro glove+blocker set has been quoted in "the $599 range" so there may be a little movement here.

Senior pads = $699

Can't find any info on the Senior (non-pro) gloves or the Junior/Intermediate gear yet, but someone from Warrior (Keith? Frank? Eric? Neal? Dr. Smith...?) might be able to fill in those blanks, and I suspect your inquiry tended towards the pro stuff.

P.S. The reason I refer to Pete Smith as 'Doctor' is not because he's an MD, but for the same reason one refers to Samuel Johnson (who was only awarded honourary degrees in the last two decades of his life) as Dr. Johnson: deference to authority.

[DangerIsGo 0]

Thanks Law! Yes, I was inquiring about the pro stuff. It sucks that they tack on an extra $100 - $500 whereas Smith did it all for nothing extra. :-\

[Law Goalie 147]

Glad to help. I don't think it's fair to say Warrior is 'tacking on extra': those prices are entirely competitive with what Reebok, Vaughn, Brian's, etc. are charging for custom pads and gloves, and that senior pro price-point is a VERY good deal, especially on the pads. That 'nothing extra' is grimly appropriate: that was how small Smith had to keep his margins in order to attract people away from retail to his gear... And, on top of that, the Rituals are a definite upgrade.

[Gwyren 0]

To my understanding the difference between the "Custom Pro" and "Senior Pro" options location of manufacture and customization. Custom Pro is made in Canada and fully customizable while "Senior Pro" is stock only and made in China. MAterials and construction between the two are supposed to be the same.

Of course, this is all my understanding.

[Law Goalie 147]

There are a few others differences...

The Senior Pro gear will be all-weave/Robocop (at least initially), but all other materials will be identical to the Montreal Custom Pro pieces. SE glove will be available in Senior Pro at retail.

The Senior Pro pads will come with all leather straps, and the Senior with nylon, but there will be underlying material differences between the Senior and Pro lines, as you would expect.

[Law Goalie 147]

For reference, he's a good shot of what the tapered boot option looks like in the flesh:

It looks like about 1" taken off the width of the boot right where it starts to round into the toe, then tapering out to full width at the ankle-break.

Dr. Smith still says that tapering is totally unnecessary on a pad with a rounded toe and a sliding toe-bridge; all it will do is make the pad unstable and tilted in the butterfly. This makes sense, since the original reason for tapering the toe of the pad was to allow the goalie to get his skate closer to the ice while still keeping it locked in the middle of the boot-channel; with no boot-channel to speak of (nominally 1/2", effectively not there) and free movement of the toe of the skate, tapering is not only pointless but actually detrimental. Still, nobody can accuse Warrior of not responding to demand, and some people will order this simply for the peace of mind that comes with making a radical design 'feel' more traditional, or at least similar to what they've used before.

[willoe 0]

I went by my LHS to try out the Rituals and they were telling me the $999 Pros will soon be customizable like the customs. Anyone else heard this, it doesn't seem right to me?

Side note, loved how they felt, if only in the showroom. Saving up for a set myself.

[Law Goalie 147]

I think you're right: that seems very unlikely. I don't doubt that Warrior is looking for ways to add options below the Pro Custom pricepoint, but I can't see how they could offer full custom options on the basic Pro model. Maybe they've figured something out...

If you're short on cash, definitely check out the Seniors: they are by far the best pads I've ever seen at that price.

Warrior's Eric Marvin also published some really good new sizing charts, so I figured I'd throw them up here as well:

Even though there isn't (so far as I know) a Ritual C/A or pant (yet...), here are those charts as well: