1 new set, 1 old set of LS2 Bauer Blades - All Warped? What to Do?

[smu 29]

1) Introduction, *Go to #4 if you don't have the time to read 1 through 3! :

I have had issues with skating and on another thread I have talked about getting a proper blade/holder alignment. I feel like I have no control of my blades and I do have a problem with over pronation. I feel I have to worry so much keeping my feet together and balance I can't even pass the puck

A good discussion ensued and given all the factors I felt the issues were resolved and I would have a much better game next year.

2) New Wrinkle:

Yesterday I saw a great pair of skates for $25 and my size. They were the Bauer Supreme X80. They were in excellent shape and same blade, LS2, as my present X60s and supposedly good blade. Since the newer blades don't even look like they were sharpened I bought the skates for the blades alone.

3) History of my blades and my play from the start of the season:

For all my trouble with skating last year I knew I needed a new set of blades so I started from that base. I only played 37 games on them, but because of feeling dull or just not right plus over-contouring they were sharpened 16 times, so there is not mush steel left on them now.

For various reasons I played less, mostly I was saying no to some pick-up games, because I was not confident with my balance/skating issues. The main reason I was not having fun and not playing the way I know I could or should.

I should bring up that I was having sharpening problems towards the end of the year, my skates were sharpened at one point and I was having a bad game. I started to investigate to see if the edges were level and then my self and notice one was off, but just a bit but not consistent along the blade.

I got my trusty stainless steel ruler out and found out that the blade had a slight bow in it. Took the skates back and the sharpener said it was a rivet problem, charged me for the sharpening and that was it. But it wasn't, the next game I had the same lousy game!

4) My new problem - Bent Blades and what to do about them:

Now, I get these "new to me" skates that have in my opinion just about unused blades. I removed all the 4 blades from both skates so I could put the best blade in my regular skates to make them as a good spare.

I was looking at my old blades and used the ruler for the warp factor. To my surprise both blades were warped about the same amount, but not substantially, I doubled checked, put them back into the holders, but the results were all the same.

After this I tentatively tested the newer blades and to my frightening surprise they were warped as well. These were the very slightly used ones, but bowed, slightly less than my original blades.

5) IMPORTANT - The Unsuspecting Customer:

In Canada we have in civil law maxim "Products should be manufactured for the purpose intended". This means that if the criteria is not met and you could win at trial or by agreement for damages, meaning injury or inconvenience. Sounds easy but it is not. If you take it face value though how many 'rotten' skates are out there? You should not have to be a master technician to figure out all the things to look for when purchasing skates. I cannot list them all, but I will go through a few and others can chime in with what I have forgotten.

1- has the boot been fitted right, not too big or not too small

2- does the skate fir your weight and style

3- are there any flaws in your skate

4- skate holders initially should be straight, in the middle of the skate, there are a many that are not

5- are the holders put on properly with regards to being perpendicular to the bottom of the skate boot

6- is the bottom of the skate boot warped

7- skates holders are place in the center of the boot suiting 10% of the population, skaters that don't fit that 10% fall within the Bell Curve

8- do you have fallen arches (pronation) or high arches (supination), that should be addressed for proper skating

9- are the blades warped, either holder related or just the blade itself

10- is your weight balanced or do you feel too far forward or backward

For all those retail people that are out there, in the hockey world, it is too bad that some could not get better training other than just the fitting of the skate process.There is so much more they could add for the satisfaction of the customer. I know from all my research that there are many that do a great job with the ten items above, but I do feel more training should be earmarked for those that need to pick up on some of the more basics, even if it is to be sure the holders are in place and parallel. I give the retail full credit for trying, but more is needed in education of at least a number of the topics that I have mentioned above.

Others can add more I am sure, but I will have to use at least those ten examples above if not more when I purchase my next pair of skates and they will be Graf. They come with great credentials, but these are same skates I purchased 4 years ago, I did not check them at all, they were fitted and that was it. I had a horrible time with them all year and I returned them twice. Because of my experience with the problems I had and knowing nothing at the time, has taught me plenty. Now with 3 years of research on the web behind me and with all sorts of problems I finally know what questions to ask and what to look for in the skate.

6) NOTE PLEASE:

At least one thing I have not learned is the warped blade problem, are they all warped slightly or does it matter if that is the case or should they be "straight as an arrow"?

Thanks for bearing with me and reading this long rant.

Alan Sheppard

[arcsinice 6]

As remarked to your earlier post which I trust you took the time to read, most skates today - Asian manufacture - are witness to blade curve (in fact holder curve) as per the factory "machine gun" process of riveting the holder...., up one side, down the other in the blink of an eye which torques the holder - yaws/curves the holder which in turn does the same to the blade. Do you have any idea as to the number of skates that are manufactured per hour in these factories by machinery that's going faster than a race car? It's not the blade, it's the holder as to the aforementioned manner by which the holder was mounted. An easy fix is all that is typically needed by a competent shop to re-install the holder the way it needs to be installed which has no adverse impact on the boot, boot sole or holder.

Repeated sharpenings will, of course, significantly change the profile and the fix on that if enough blade is still available is to simply have a re-radius/re-contour done (if not, just get a new set of runners and have them radiused) but again, only with a template. Anyone who claims they can radius a blade freehand........., by some "method" which incorporates markings on the blade is to be avoided like liberals or the plague which liberals are........., the plague. You just need to know what preferred radius you need and the preferred pitch point.... Neutral, plus or minus. Don't make such a big deal out of this. Just get it right beginning with a well fitting boot combined with a runner that is properly balanced via proper radius and pitch point.

By going with Graf make certain you choose the proper group and then submodel within their line-up as per internal dimensions which is what they focus on per different group/model and then make any correction if need be after that which you seem to need. I do not recommend heating Graf boots, instead avoiding that and over time allowing the shape to come up by way of usage.

[smu 29]

I really appreciate you taking the time to read my long comment.

It was duly noted earlier about the mass assembly problem of the blades and holders etc.


I have first hand knowledge of this aspect in particular with new Graf G3 in 2009. All I had was a fitting, sharpening and took to the ice only to fall all over the place.
This incident was due to both sets of holders misaligned on the boot. I then received another pair and thought this would solve all problems. It did not, I still had some difficulty skating. The problem now was a warped outsole causing the holder and blade not to be perpendicular with the boot. It was hard convincing Graf that my second pair were bad as well, but I finally was given another pair of Grafs that I exchanged for a Bauer at my original retailer.

Also, 
I do understand the holder and rivet problem, with pull of one or the other distorting the blades, but it is odd that all four of my blades were warped.

I just came back from the skate sharpener and asked him 'just' to sharpen blades, no profiling, as I don't think he did a good job last time. There is no toe or heel left in the old set (after 1 year) so I want to go easy with the newer ones.

So, I have 2 pairs of skates and today he does see that one of the older blades is "out too much" and he will fix that. The other 3 blades I guess are within tolerances and don't have to be perfectly straight.

There has to be a larger onus on the manufacturer to better produce their product - better consistency. They should be giving the retails more training along with how to spot their mistakes.

But the retailer should at least be able to notice the smaller things, like holder/blade alignment, for example, and that it should be straight and true on both sides.

Thanks for your help with respect to contouring, I went too far this year and thanks for the tips on the Graf skates. I certainly know what to look for on these, in particular.


Are you sure about the advice on not baking the boot? This year they are making them in 3 flex models, would that make any difference?


Thanks,

Alan

[arcsinice 6]

A few reflections............ Over the past decade with the increased popularity (expansion) of hockey to a point of absurdity whereupon regions of Barackistan (the former United States) that heretofore had no idea of the sport, for that matter skating (but you'd never know that today as per the righteous narrative coming from the populus............., now witness to burgeoning hockey programs, certain cities now with NHL teams.................) The equipment mania is just that and manufacturing has pretty much taken a hit in terms of quality. Most people today do not realize the millions of CDN or USD that ubiquitous Bauer give out in free equipment to so many players not just within the top leagues, but, as well, my alma mater -- even my high school for chrissake! Insane. And CCM/Reebok, while nowhere near to that of ubiquitous Bauer stilll have to play the game in order to survive. As a matter of fact it got so out of control a nummber of years back thhat CCM held formal meetings with Bettman & Co. in NYC to put an end to Bauer's cannibalist - predatory ways and the NHL laid out rules and percentages.This is why they (the big two mfgrs., esp. Bauer) are forced through this schwag give-a-way which is SO influential to the consumer as a direct marketing tool to manufacture in China, to a lesser extent Thailand where the average cost for a set of the top tier skates is $58.00 CDN port of entry. Think about that. This is how they recoup their loss and they do as they are bringing in product by the boat load left and right. True, there is a private atalier in Montreal for the big two but it's just for boots as far as I know. Only Graf do not play this game and require the player to pay for his equipment, many times as well requiiring a trip to Calgary for several days to get fitted and custom made. This is why Graf are so absent in the big leagues. You can sense where my allegiance resides vis-a--vis propriety................. Then, of course, there's the quality factor and the fact that I choose not to employ a Chi-Com, rather a Canadian, but I digress.......................

Retailers today are simply in the business of exchange. They buy inventory and get it out the front door asap. In other words, "The Exchange". Astute or finicky skaters and players, through experience much of the time know what to look for. Others do not. Most individuals never detect holder curvature, nor understand the importance of radiusing their blades. Equipment so often is beyond disposable and the factories crank out tons as the consumer goes through equipment like paper towels at a watermelon eating contest.

Graf thankfully have not succumbed to too stiff a boot design throughout most of their line-up, they know well the importance -- benefit of a softer flexing boot (not soft mind you, just not insanely stiff ) as do pros who spec that their custom made free schwag be softer here and there as you are, I trust, aware. Sure, their boot visually indicates being the top ($$$$$) model, but in fact so often it is tantamount to a "lower performance" boot in that brand. In other words softer. The manufacturer is counting on the buyer to purchase the "higher performance" (stiffer), more $$$$ model and they do, which benefits the manufacturer as per margain. Most shops don't care. They just do the exchange thing and that's that.

I have found that with Graf their materials while strong are not as tolerant of heating as are the pure plastic brands which is what everyone else is doing. True, Graf are revamping most of their entire line and with same, the new offerings going full plastic so time will tell if they take to standard heating. But to date I've always found that the Graf boot is best not heated and if so, only in a hockey/skate shop's dedicated convection oven and then only for three minutes and not laced tight, just medium pressure. I also ditch their waxed laces immediately and employ non waxed laces as same allows a fluid flexation unlike waxed laces which are also a bitch to not just lace up but lace down and their width is not as wide as that of non waxed laces and wider is better - less stress on the eyelets, less pressure at the break point (e.g., lace bite).

Most individuals are "too tight" in their lacing, too stiff in their boot, too short in their radius and too hollow in their blade. But what do I know............? I'm in Minnesota and we know nothing about winter, snow, ice, skating or hockey compared to the hockey experts in the south, the west, desert regions and the like where hockey originated and the best players hail from........ Whew knew? I was of the impression that Canada had it going on to put it mildly and then once south of your border states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Massachussets, upper New York, as well Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine knew their way around the ice. Obviously I was wrong. You learn something everyday...............

Not knowing who is in your region in terms of a competent shop, but I trust there is. If not, as I suggested look into who is rummaging around both Quebec City and Montreal. Here in Barackistan there are sadly only a handful at best of shops who can do it right in terms of template radiusing, for that matter other workmanship in the truest sense. Logically one would like to think there should be more so that is why I can appreciate someone who is trying to zero in on competent service being miffed. Still, given Quebec Provence and its non pareil expertise in hockey (save for the southern and western regions of Barackistan where hockey is king, where it started and the best players and fans come from), I know there have got to be several people who can help if you are shortchanged as it were locally. Case in point................. Many renowned figure skaters in this country exclusively have one of three or four sharpeners attend to their blades and no one else, ever and it's almost always by mail - FedEx, UPS. The same is true in Canada with one guy just west of Toronto - I'm forgetting his name, really famous guy as was his famous father..........., whose clientele over decades are also a "who's who" on the ice and we both know how much more demanding figure skating is to that of hockey.

Take care.

[smu 29]

A few reflections............

Just seeing this now, been away from the forum for a few weeks in April and missed this.

Nice job!

Alan