Flat Bottom V for goalies

[Oykib 0]

How many goalies out there have used it?

I took my skates into one shop a few months ago and the sharpener said that he had done it for several goalies and hasn't heard a complaint. I had them done and my brother took a few pair up to another store and I gave him mine to have done. He called me after he got there and said the skate sharpener was refusing to do a FBV on my skates. I asked why and he said goalies shouldn't have it done. I asked him to give him the phone and I was told it was designed for a narrower blade and that I didn't know what I wanted. I explained that I had it done before and I do want it. He asked where I had it done and then said the guy that told me about it didn't know what he wanted. Well, I convinced him to do it and I get the 1/2" cut.

I personally love it, but I have converted to a butterfly goalie and I love the extra reach and bite. If you are move of a Hybrid or do not do a lot of backside pushes I wouldn't recommend it. But I like the fact that I can plant my push foot further out and have a great bite. FBV has lasted longer on my skates then a normal sharpening as well.

Excuse the long post but I was curious if anyone else has had the same experience.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

There'll be goal and figure specific FBV shapes soon. I have done goal and figure skates using the existing shapes and they work fine, however the newer ones (I believe we're talking 110 or 115) will work with the wider blades better.

[Oykib 0]

There'll be goal and figure specific FBV shapes soon. I have done goal and figure skates using the existing shapes and they work fine, however the newer ones (I believe we're talking 110 or 115) will work with the wider blades better.

Good to know. I love the grip I am getting, do you think it will change a lot? Have you had any goalies come back after having it done and complain?

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

Nah, you'll have more lateral sliding on the new shapes. Not everyone plays butterfly.

[Law Goalie 147]

I'm going to get FBV 100/75 put on one of my pairs of blades in the next week or so, to compare with my usual 7/16ths. I figured that the general rules of moving to a thinner blade would still apply with FBV: the effect of the same hollow on both goalie and player blades feels about 1/16" to 1/8" deeper. I haven't bothered to do the trig, but I'd bet it's right in between.

Everyone I've asked has said it should be as much of a boon to goalies as skaters. I figured the enhanced glide in T-pushes alone would be worth a little extra leg-work in shuffling. Great to hear they're going to take the wider blade geometry into account; changing the angle even ten degrees should make a significant difference.

Oyk, did you notice a big difference in your shuffling? I'm really interested in how the constant angle of the 'fangs' will work.

[Gummer12 134]

I got the 90/50 on mine the other week...5 games on them so far, still a crisp edge. No time at all to adjust. Shuffling and scuffing the crease felt a little easier, but not much different. I recommend it to anyone who's even remotely interested in it.

[Oykib 0]

I'm going to get FBV 100/75 put on one of my pairs of blades in the next week or so, to compare with my usual 7/16ths. I figured that the general rules of moving to a thinner blade would still apply with FBV: the effect of the same hollow on both goalie and player blades feels about 1/16" to 1/8" deeper. I haven't bothered to do the trig, but I'd bet it's right in between.

Everyone I've asked has said it should be as much of a boon to goalies as skaters. I figured the enhanced glide in T-pushes alone would be worth a little extra leg-work in shuffling. Great to hear they're going to take the wider blade geometry into account; changing the angle even ten degrees should make a significant difference.

Oyk, did you notice a big difference in your shuffling? I'm really interested in how the constant angle of the 'fangs' will work.

BIG difference in shuffling. You are going to have trouble if you are used to floating around the crease. That was the hardest part to get used to. It felt like My skate kept hitting a rut, but I just needed to use more force. What I love about it is that I don't have to raise my drive foot all the way up to get a good thrust on a backside push. The older I get the harder it is to rotate the pad up perpendicular to the ice. I have as much bite with this grind at full extension that I do with the pad up. Skate save? Forget about that with this grind but truth be told I haven't made one of those in years lol.

I have full bite unless my pad knocks the skate off the ice. It is almost like wearing cheater blades.

I got the 90/50 on mine the other week...5 games on them so far, still a crisp edge. No time at all to adjust. Shuffling and scuffing the crease felt a little easier, but not much different. I recommend it to anyone who's even remotely interested in it.

Do you play butterfly?

[Law Goalie 147]

Shit... I can float a shuffle for a good 4-5 feet on 7/16ths; this sounds like the bite-angle is more like 5/16ths, which felt like I was on rails.

Still, it sounds like you're going to keep 100/75 - or would you switch to 110/75?

I love that the sharpenings are lasting; FBV on RBK steel should be almost eternal.

[Oykib 0]

Shit... I can float a shuffle for a good 4-5 feet on 7/16ths; this sounds like the bite-angle is more like 5/16ths, which felt like I was on rails.

Still, it sounds like you're going to keep 100/75 - or would you switch to 110/75?

I love that the sharpenings are lasting; FBV on RBK steel should be almost eternal.

I am going to keep the 100/75. FBV does feel like you are on rails and it took some getting used to. I had to change my technique a bit but it wasn't to bad. The ability to hold your edge while your feet are at a steep angle has been worth any trouble getting used to it in my opinion. If I still played more traditional or hybrid I would have trouble though.

[Law Goalie 147]

Interesting. So you feel like your edges are a lot more engaged with the ice, no matter the angle, on an FBV than on a comparable hollow. Combine that with the increased glide (especially in T-pushes), and that sounds like a winner.

I wonder if the increased push from the backside leg in the shuffle wouldn't almost overcome the increase resistance on the frontside leg. I mean, in theory, that if your weight is distributed evenly across both edges, as on the lead leg in the shuffle, it doesn't matter whether the hollow is a radius or an FBV - since, effectively, the edge offering the most resistance is always going to be perpendicular to the ice, and the other edge just drags behind it; where the change in geometry comes into play is on the edge as it digs into the ice.

When you say you had to change your technique a little, did you just find you had to be a little more precise about your balance when shuffling?

[Gummer12 134]

I wouldn't say i'm Purely B-Fly, but I guess so..more of a Shape thrower :D I would agree with Law about the RBK steel..My shitty 7000 steel is worthless, and seems to be holding up so far.

[Law Goalie 147]

Haha - I use that exact expression to describe myself when I start throwing passive butterflies at too many shots. "Throwing shapes in the Church of Dance..." Then there are "driving range goaies" who excel in a certain number of common goalie camp/clinic drills but can't put it together on the ice, and "knee dancers" for the guys who have beautiful butterfly slides but can't stop a beachball. :)

[Oykib 0]

When you say you had to change your technique a little, did you just find you had to be a little more precise about your balance when shuffling?

When I pushed off I would have my balance point in the middle while I floated to my position. With the FBV your lead skate is going to feel like it caught a rut and will be pulled under you. Moving around the crease that way with the FBV feels like when you are scratching up your crease when you get on the ice.

I have gone from someting like this

To like this.

[Law Goalie 147]

Thanks for that. I had once intended to use the second video to show a few Bantam goalies about how to play aggressively from the butterfly against tight plays, but I hadn't been able to find it again.

I asked a few questions over in the main FBV thread, and I thought I'd post my conclusions here for reference:

I guess where I'm getting confused is that I *had* thought that (somehow) the width AND depth of the flat were being controlled independently - which of course makes no sense given the physics of the spinner.

Thanks to the diagrams and repeated explanation, I think I get it now. The spinner is a trapezoid in profile with a flat of X width (90, 100, etc.) at its peak, and sides sloping at angle Theta. The sharpener can 'push' this flat and those angled sides a certain distance into the blade (75, 50, etc.), creating Y depth. However, these depths are calculated based on a constant blade-width of ~.110"; thus, on a wider blade, the sharpener effectively has to push that flat of X width deeper into the blade in order to make the sides slope all the way to the edge of the wider blade. So, in the end, FBV does have the same effect as ROH on a wider blade: the flat and bite-angle remain constant, but the depth increases as the shape (whether trapezoid or circle) is pushed further into the blade, creating taller edges.

So, in other words, goalies should generally stick to X/50 shapes, since their sides are going to be deeper anyway, unless they really want to be on the rails.

Cheers guys - I think I've got a handle on this: 100/50 for me, and a possible hold-out for 110/50 or whatever the new shape turns out to be. This also tracks nicely with the estimations that 100/50 bites like 1/2-5/8", given the traditional 1/8" increase for the same hollow on goalie skates. All is right and well in the universe.

According to the Blackstone FBV whitepaper, the 100/75 FBV has a bite-angle of 81-82 degrees, which corresponds directly to the bite-angle of a 3/8" ROH. The difference is that the depth of the FBV is way, way less. However, the depth of the FBV on a goalie blade (wider) is still much greater than on a player blade (narrower) -- and the depth of the 'fangs' is one of the things that is taken into account, of course, when determining equivalencies (e.g. 100/75 FBV ~= 3/8-1/2" ROH).

So in effect, the edges of a 100/75 FBV on goalie skates will feel closer to 5/16 or even 1/4; 100/50 will feel like something between 7/16 and 9/16 (just on either side of 1/2").

Interestingly, however, the bite-angle of 100/50 is 84-85 degrees, which is noticeably less than the 83-84 of 1/2" ROH, in addition to being significantly more shallow and having better glide along the wider flat. I suspect that shuffling with excellent balance will actually be *easier* on 100/50 than 1/2", given all of the above, but the bite of the edge will still feel a as good if not better -- and all this in addition to massively improved glide in T-pushes and C-cuts.

Maybe 100/50 will turn out to be a bit of an FBV golden ratio for goalies. Now I'm really interested to see where the final goalie-specific wheel falls in the 110-115 range - I think 110 might be plenty. On the other hand, it might be worth trying something like 140/50, which would be proportionally closer to the ratio of flat-bottom to blade-width (90 or 100 to 110, vs. 110 or 140 to 160).

edit:

Another quick update to introduce part of an old post jimmy made in another thread:

Just to note, the FBV does work great on goal skates, super bite, great maneuverability, hard to describe but I was using a 15/32" hollow and then went to the 100/75. Easy transition, feels better but hard to say exactly why. I can shuffle and pivot easier, yet still have great grip. I wouldn't say the advantage is so much better than a deep hollow, but it still feels and works nice. I don't recommend a hollow deeper than 7/16, as the edges are thinner and breakoff/wear quicker. Of course you can go deeper, but you will be sharpening much more frequently. For radius, find a shop near you that offers some choices as most shops only have 1, perhaps 2 goalie templates. These may not be right for your son's size skate. The most important thing is to have some pitch put on the skates as it improves balance, stance, and maneuverability quite a bit more than just the rocker radius by itself. Good luck. You are on the right track and Law Goalie's advice is spot on.

[Bill_CIA 0]

Just out of curiousity, what are these XXX/XX numbers (eg. 100/75) you guys are all using?

I'm a newb, what can I say?

[Law Goalie 147]

Fear not, Bill - there but for the grace of Mods go we all.

The first number (numerator) is the width in thousandths of an inch of the flat-bottom cut in the FBV sharpening; this as compared to the total width of a player's blade (~.110") and a goalie's blade (~.160"). The second number (denominator) is the depth in ten-thousandsths of an inch (IIRC): how far that flat-bottom is pushed into the blade to create the edges.

So, for example, 80/50 is a relatively small flat pushed not very far into the blade, resulting in fairly low-angled 'fangs' as edges. 100/50 would create much more sharply-angled edges because of the much wider flat; 100/75 would make the edges a little more sharply-angled, but significantly (+50%) taller in pushing the same flat-bottom further into the blade.

(Someone smack me if I'm wrong.)

[Gummer12 134]

Another skate on the 90/50 last night and 4 skates in two days at a tourney last week for a total of 6 games. So far Still crisp edges, and shuffling feels just fine. Might be that it's just the perfect combination for my ice/style/weight. Even at the other rink the edges felt just fine. Again, this is on non stainless Bauer 7000 steel. I usually got about 5-6 skates out of my previous 3/4" ROH cut, so we'll see how many more beyond this the FBV can last.

[Oykib 0]

Another skate on the 90/50 last night and 4 skates in two days at a tourney last week for a total of 6 games. So far Still crisp edges, and shuffling feels just fine. Might be that it's just the perfect combination for my ice/style/weight. Even at the other rink the edges felt just fine. Again, this is on non stainless Bauer 7000 steel. I usually got about 5-6 skates out of my previous 3/4" ROH cut, so we'll see how many more beyond this the FBV can last.

I have been running a smooth stone along the outside of my blade to keep the outside sharp and it has kept them pretty sharp overall.

[Oykib 0]

I got this from the NYTimes article on FBV

NY Times

FBV picture

[Gummer12 134]

As posted in the main FBV thread...just had my skates sharpened again. Normal ROH lasted 5-6 skates..I have had 10 skates on Hard Ice with the FBV. Not going back.

[Gwyren 0]

I wish I could find this around where I am. I would love to try it.

I have spoken to the guys at the places I get my skates sharpened about it. They are all afraid of the initial startup cost. However I am not sure how much they have looked into it.

[Law Goalie 147]

I finally got to have a proper on-ice session with my goalie skates on 100/50 (coming from 7/16 ROH), and it was stunning. Took me about an hour of movement to feel totally comfortable, and then the scales dropped from my feet. It really is almost binary: on the edge and dug in hard, or off it and gliding. Being a rather large guy coming from a relatively deep ROH on the wider goalie blade, it made a huge difference. For a while, the glide was so big a difference that I was overskating my angles and backing in way, way too fast in breakways - took a pretty nice spill into the net at one point. Once I adjusted, I found my movements far more economical and much smoother.

I'm very interested to try the new goalie-specific shapes (JR hinted at 115/Y or 120/Y), but I think goalies are really going to take to this or reject it (whether they know it or not) based on the shape of their cowlings. If they bottom out on the inside curve of the plastic too early, they'll feel like FBV might as well be a flat-cut that's hard to shuffle on; if they've got good clearance, they'll love it within 60 minutes.

In this respect, I think early adopters of the new Bauer cowlings (starting with the One100) and going to experience the most dramatic improvement in their skating on FBV. The whole point of that cowling is to allow lower-angle engagement with the ice (esp. in butterfly transitions and movements), and that's where FBV really excels: it gives incredible bite on the edge, from the point the edge engages all the way down to the point the cowling slips out. It does this far better, in fact, than deeper hollows do, and without the commensurate penalty in gliding. I felt shuffling was also easier on 100/50 than on 7/16 ROH, though others have noted that 100/75 is extremely hard to shuffle on.

[kevintung_2k 0]

I find that the one drawback of FBV for goalies is that the inside of the inside edge does not "catch" the ice as well transitioning from a butterfly slide to one's regular stance. The ease of movement in general more than makes up for this, however.

[Law Goalie 147]

I noticed that same effect at first, in both recoveries and transitions, and it makes sense - the whole point of FBV is that the edge is shorter (ie. shallower) in relation to a wider flat, but at a similar bite-angle. The more I skated, however, the more reliably I was to find the FBV edge; by the end of the first skate, I wasn't thinking about it, just enjoying the positive effects. It's a small adjustment.

I don't think it's fair to say that FBV edges don't catch "as well" as ROH - it might be more proper to say that because the edge is smaller, it requires a bit more precision during butterfly recoveries. That fits with what skaters have described in their own transitions.

[DangerIsGo 0]

How is the FBV for goalies in terms of sliding from side to side?